lost tribe

[FollowingHim]

@IshChayil indeed, somevery interesting finds in Afghanistan and Pakistan recently w Muslim tribes that trace lineage and custom directly into Biblical or Judaic practice.

Palestinians are very similar to Jews genetically, according to Haaretz, as are Druze and Bedouins.
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots-1.5411201

The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots

Which makes sense. Palestine was populated with many Jews and Jewish converts to Christianity, until the Muslims took over. For obvious reasons, large portions of the Jewish and Christian population converted to Islam, while some did not - making many of the Muslims in Palestine ethnically Jewish. Roll forward to today, and their descendants are the Palestinians. Obviously, lots of genetic mixing and migrations have occurred both in the population that stayed in Palestine and converted to Islam or Christianity, and in the population that was dispersed and retained the Jewish religion. So I'm not at all saying that every Palestinian is ethnically Jewish. But, based purely on history, supported by modern genetics, it is most reasonable to assume that a fair portion of the Palestinian population (both Muslim and Christian) is ethnically Jewish.

No doubt there are people groups with Jewish ancestry in many other places all over the world. But I would expect the largest undiscovered (or rather unrecognised) population to be closer to Israel for purely historical reasons, and genetics supports that strongly.

This is a fascinating chart from a research summary. Have a look at it and see what you notice before reading my next comment:

What jumps out to me is that the Palestinians and Druze are smack between the European, North African and Yemeni Jews, and the Bedouin are right beside them. Genetically, these groups are indistinguishable from Jews if you take the Yemeni + European + N.African populations as collectively representing Jews. If you include the Ethiopian Jews, then it gets even more complex. Clearly there is an enormous amount of Jewish blood in the Palestinians.

The political ramifications of this are obviously rather enormous, but I'm just talking about the science. Ponder the politics yourself...

 

[FollowingHim]

Interestingly, this history is actually argued for by Jewish writers seeking to dispel historical revisionism by the Palestinians! For example, this article by the BESA centre is written to show that the Palestinians are not the descendents of the Canaanites (as some have claimed in order to pretend that they have deeper ties to the land than the Jews do). It points out instead that:

Inbari’s review, along with many additional sources of information he did not address, demonstrates that modern Palestinians are, in fact, derived from two primary streams: converts from indigenous pre-modern Jews and Christians who submitted to Islam, and Arab tribes originating across the Middle East who migrated to the Southern Levant between late antiquity and the 1940s.

 

[IshChayil]

Palestinians are very similar to Jews genetically, according to Haaretz, as are Druze and Bedouins.

Of course ARABS are somewhat similar to Jews ethnically, they are also from Abraham; I'm not sure why this would be a surprise to anyone it should be patently obvious.
Bedouins are very interesting because some of them have the "cohein" marker, meaning they have lineage from Aaharon; which would nicely explain their affinity for Israel (volunteering in the IDF etc).

My best friend is a Messianic believer from Syria, we used to always argue about the Golan heights haha.
Our friends at an American church in Ukraine always thought we looked like brothers (he's more tan), I actually tricked one of my wives one time. I sent her a photo of my friend with his wife and kids. I told her "it's time to meet my 3rd wife." She said she was panicking in her heart for a moment haha.
His grandmother fled from Haifa in the Israeli war for Independence and never went back. I always told him he probably had Jewish blood, someone snuck in there haha. Anyway, he took a DNA test and found he is 13% Jewish (by one test, another said 8%)! Of course the DNA databases only have Judah and Levi samples (modern Jews) so who knows if he's 50% more from other tribes or something. Of course people in the region mix.
This is why the Samaritans were so hated by the Israelis, for mixing with the nations. it's fascinating to me to see even Yeshua's tone in referring to them as totally ignorant. Yet ... he went to them.

Politically I was fascinated years ago to learn that under British rule, the Jewish ID cards in "Palestine" said "Palestinian" acknowledging them as the natives, while the Arab ID cards said "Arab" amazing how this changed after the creation of the 2 states! It was a brilliant move by the Jordanian Arabs to start calling themselves "Palestinian" as it implies "native of Palestine".

Interestingly, this history is actually argued for by Jewish writers seeking to dispel historical revisionism by the Palestinians! For example, this article by the BESA centre is written to show that the Palestinians are not the descendents of the Canaanites (as some have claimed in order to pretend that they have deeper ties to the land than the Jews do).

It's good the scientists were intellectually honest and did not revise the data!

 

[IshChayil]

Palestinians are very similar to Jews genetically, according to Haaretz, as are Druze and Bedouins.
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots-1.5411201

Which makes sense. Palestine was populated with many Jews and Jewish converts to Christianity, until the Muslims took over. For obvious reasons, large portions of the Jewish and Christian population converted to Islam, while some did not - making many of the Muslims in Palestine ethnically Jewish. Roll forward to today, and their descendants are the Palestinians. Obviously, lots of genetic mixing and migrations have occurred both in the population that stayed in Palestine and converted to Islam or Christianity, and in the population that was dispersed and retained the Jewish religion. So I'm not at all saying that every Palestinian is ethnically Jewish. But, based purely on history, supported by modern genetics, it is most reasonable to assume that a fair portion of the Palestinian population (both Muslim and Christian) is ethnically Jewish.

No doubt there are people groups with Jewish ancestry in many other places all over the world. But I would expect the largest undiscovered (or rather unrecognised) population to be closer to Israel for purely historical reasons, and genetics supports that strongly.

This is a fascinating chart from a research summary. Have a look at it and see what you notice before reading my next comment:
View attachment 1888
What jumps out to me is that the Palestinians and Druze are smack between the European, North African and Yemeni Jews, and the Bedouin are right beside them. Genetically, these groups are indistinguishable from Jews if you take the Yemeni + European + N.African populations as collectively representing Jews. If you include the Ethiopian Jews, then it gets even more complex. Clearly there is an enormous amount of Jewish blood in the Palestinians.

The political ramifications of this are obviously rather enormous, but I'm just talking about the science. Ponder the politics yourself...

Haha I just remembered a British comedy I saw where a Muslim Londoner discovers he's a Jew.
Quite relevant to this conversation. It's called "The Infidel", made in 2010. I can't remember if it's all clean humor or not so be careful folks with kids, but I remember laughing.

 

[FollowingHim]

That sounds hilarious, we'll have to track down a copy!

 

[IshChayil]

So someone wrote some stuff about the B'nei Menasheh having to convert to make Aliya. I don't know if they wrote it here since I have this person blocked, but I wanted to clarify to folks who may be wondering: "if the chief rabbi of Israel agreed with the findings of these other rabbis that Menashe had been found, then why make them convert?" The reason is that the TRIBE goes through the father in Jewish understanding, while the Jewishness goes through the mother.
The Orthodox control all the marriages in Israel.
One concern is preventing mixed marriages so when you have a tribe lost for so long in the galut there could be no certainty who's mother was Jewish or who's mother's mother was Jewish so while they were accepted to be mostly comprised of this lost tribe, they decided to have fast tracked conversion processes for them.
This often happens in Judaism when a person has "Jewish blood" but are not considered Jewish by the orthodox, the conversion restrictions are lifted. I think it's about clan loyalty, the idea if someone is clinging to their Jewish identity then it's less likely they will be a traitor later.
Something similar happened for the many Russian Jews who immigrated; many did not have Jewish mothers so the army decided to fast track their conversions.
Regarding some of the b'nei menashe having identified with Christianity; this was a minority of the ethnicity.
Some can feel outraged that the Christians converted to Judaism but let's get real; how many people have you met who were just 'born' into Roman Catholicism for example. They identify as "christian" in census data or if someone asks but have no clue about the bible (not all R.Cath.s I know). So maybe no need to have knee jerk reactions to what it means to convert. For many of those people it meant getting out of the 3rd world and lives of poverty and moving to the country that has the 3rd most Tech companies listed on the NASDAQ (just after USA and China)[and just 7 million people there, head and not the tail!] It's easy to be judgmental when we don't know the situation but it's really not relevant to the fact that the Jewish powers that be decided that Menasheh has been found and believe me; it is not easy for something like this to happen in Orthodox Judaism and one can not convert into a tribe.
This is why converts receive the title son of Abraham or daughter of Sarah (though these are not exclusively patronymics for converts).
I remain very excited to live in such times; the times when Hashem has brought back His people from the corners of the Earth to where He had scattered them, the rebirth of the nation of Israel in the right land!
The Hebrew language is alive again and the scepter certainly has not passed from Judah as we see the promises of military prowess fulfilled against impossible odds. Now lost tribes are being found.
I predict Ephraim will be the next lost tribe to be found. I personally have a hunch it may be the Romani.

 

[FollowingHim]

The reason is that the TRIBE goes through the father in Jewish understanding, while the Jewishness goes through the mother.

Can you elaborate on what "Jewishness" actually is then? I'm struggling to wrap my head around that.
Based on that, somebody whose father was in the tribe of Judah, but whose mother was not, would be considered to be in the tribe of Judah but not Jewish. Did I understand you correctly?

 

[The Revolting Man]

I don't share your excitement. They may well be descendants of Menasah, but that does not mean that they alone represent that tribe.
Jews may be a portion of Judah, but certainly a portion of Judah also became Christian and then in giving faith in Christ supreme importance no longer felt their affiliation with a tribe was of ultimate significance. Paul said everything was dung compared...and he knew what tribe he was from.

And year the New Testament puts a gigantic emphasis on the Lost Tribes and their restoration. Jesus talked a lot about the House of Israel, a concept whose full realization had been given up on by the elite Jews of the day. You may remember that the Apostles asked excitedly of the House of Israel would be restored and John’s Revelation makes it clear they will be although the account is scant on details.

There’s no doubt that salvation through the shed blood of Jesus is the most important spiritual reality but we can not deny that there is something special, even in the New Testament, about the descendants of Jacob.

 

[The Revolting Man]

So someone wrote some stuff about the B'nei Menasheh having to convert to make Aliya (on a private thread). I don't know if they wrote it here since I have this person blocked, but I wanted to clarify to folks who may be wondering: "if the chief rabbi of Israel agreed with the findings of these other rabbis that Menashe had been found, then why make them convert?" The reason is that the TRIBE goes through the father in Jewish understanding, while the Jewishness goes through the mother.
The Orthodox control all the marriages in Israel.
One concern is preventing mixed marriages so when you have a tribe lost for so long in the galut there could be no certainty who's mother was Jewish or who's mother's mother was Jewish so while they were accepted to be mostly comprised of this lost tribe, they decided to have fast tracked conversion processes for them.
This often happens in Judaism when a person has "Jewish blood" but are not considered Jewish by the orthodox, the conversion restrictions are lifted. I think it's about clan loyalty, the idea if someone is clinging to their Jewish identity then it's less likely they will be a traitor later.
Something similar happened for the many Russian Jews who immigrated; many did not have Jewish mothers so the army decided to fast track their conversions.
Regarding some of the b'nei menashe having identified with Christianity; this was a minority of the ethnicity.
Some can feel outraged that the Christians converted to Judaism but let's get real; how many people have you met who were just 'born' into Roman Catholicism for example. They identify as "christian" in census data or if someone asks but have no clue about the bible (not all R.Cath.s I know). So maybe no need to have knee jerk reactions to what it means to convert. For many of those people it meant getting out of the 3rd world and lives of poverty and moving to the country that has the 3rd most Tech companies listed on the NASDAQ (just after USA and China)[and just 7 million people there, head and not the tail!] It's easy to be judgmental when we don't know the situation but it's really not relevant to the fact that the Jewish powers that be decided that Menasheh has been found and believe me; it is not easy for something like this to happen in Orthodox Judaism and one can not convert into a tribe.
This is why converts receive the title son of Abraham or daughter of Sarah (though these are not exclusively patronymics for converts).
I remain very excited to live in such times; the times when Hashem has brought back His people from the corners of the Earth to where He had scattered them, the rebirth of the nation of Israel in the right land!
The Hebrew language is alive again and the scepter certainly has not passed from Judah as we see the promises of military prowess fulfilled against impossible odds. Now lost tribes are being found.
I predict Ephraim will be the next lost tribe to be found. I personally have a hunch it may be the Romani.

It seems like it would be very easy for a “Christian” to convert to Judaism. We should come up with a name for them or something. If only we knew someone who had combined Jewishness with a realization that the Messiah has come. That would be a useful man to talk to about all this.....

 

[IshChayil]

Can you elaborate on what "Jewishness" actually is then? I'm struggling to wrap my head around that.
Based on that, somebody whose father was in the tribe of Judah, but whose mother was not, would be considered to be in the tribe of Judah but not Jewish. Did I understand you correctly?

A bit hesitant to answer this because you are a smart guy and I assume you actually know everything I'm about to write. Most Western Jews consider "Jewishness" based on lineage. English actually is not the most useful language for discussing this topic since we generally have the one word 'Jew' to describe both a person who is ethnically Jewish as well as someone who converted to the religion of Judaism but was born into another clan (i.e. an English person). So while the English person who converts is not a literal descendant of Jacob, the religion considers him an adopted son. A convert into the culture receives special protective status equal to that of an orphan or a widow since it's assumed the family members will not appreciate that the person has become a Jew.
Most of the time, in my experience in Europe and the states, other Jews are viewing this from the perspective of "descended from Jacob." I think this is because Judaism is a non-proselytizing religion. Rabbis are not allowed to go out and seek converts any more; if a rabbi is found to be actively recruiting people to Judaism he can get in trouble with the beit din. With Jews in Eastern European and Russian lands the race element is usually the only element of interest though this is where language come into play. BTW @The Revolting Man conversion takes between 1 - 3 years; the prospect has to attend classes, learn rudimentary Hebrew, learn the mitzvot etc. Then they are tested by a panel of 3 judges who determine if they understand properly what they are committing to for life.

In English, it's one word "he's Jewish" can mean "he converted to Judaism" or it can mean "He was born Jewish". In Russian there are 2 different words, roughly like English "Hebrew" and "Judaist."
The first thought for most other Jews I have known when someone asks "is he Jewish" is equivalent to the Russian "on Yevrei?" (Is he a Hebrew). In Jewish law one can not point out that someone is a convert unless the person, or his children, or grandchildren wish to marry a Cohein (priest) in which the Torah does not allow converts for 3 generations to marry into that family.

You asked about the tribal membership. Different denominations of Judaism believe differently concerning the "who is a Jew by birth" question.
The stricter in observance:
Orthodox and Masorti: mother must be Jewish (father doesn't matter)
Karaite (mostly Egyptian Jews): the father must be Jewish (mother doesn't matter)
More liberal:
Reformed, Reconstructionist, and Renewal: father or mother Jewish

Messianic is also split on this:
stricter in observance:
UMJC (Mother must be Jewish, exemptions for some situations with Jewish father only)
CTOMC (either parent a Jew)
UMJA (either parent a Jew)
ATOM (either parent a Jew)
The Famous Jewish evangelism organization: Jews for Jesus (either parent Jewish)
less strict observance (regarding Torah):
MJAA (either parent a Jew)
CPM (either parent a Jew)
I know I left a few out; it's amazing how such a small group of people have so many different organizations.

So regarding tribal affiliation; it's kind of moot since nobody gets land any more according to our tribe. The only tribe with active importance in synagogue life is Levi since they get called 1st to the Torah and certain other royalty-like priv.s the rest are just called "kol Yirael" (all of Israel.)
To sum up, most Jews are not converts since the religion deeply discourages conversion from "partnership religions." A partnership religion is a religion which Judaism considers valid for achieving eternal life. Christianity, Bahai, Islam, etc. are all monotheists and currently non-idol worshipers so Halakhah does not allow them to be converted to Judaism unless the person is extremely persistent after having been turned away many times. If a Hindu idol worshiper requests conversion the response is different. This can be better understood in light Yeshua's comment to the Shamaite pharisees, "you search far and wide for a convert..." because there were no known monotheists outside of Israel in those days.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Those first 7 groups that Ish listed are not messianic.
The promises YHWH made are actually diminished or completely made void when you look for the children of Israel among those practicing Judaism and rejecting Christ. He promised to make a new covenant with BOTH houses of Israel. Yeshua is the mediator of that covenant. Sadly the way most understand it, the majority of these Jews are Israelite people, and have been dying in their sins for two THOUSAND years, in defiance of the promise made to Abraham, to be a God to him and his seed after him IN THEIR GENERATIONS. Also there is still that pesky verse spoken by Yeshua "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me." Yeshua is called The holy one of Israel Oh, and why would Yeshua have told some point blank to their faces "My word has no place in you because YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP." In John 16 Jesus also told them "They will put you (His followers) out of the synagogues" who do you think that left IN the synagogues?? To write the talmud and carry on those traditions of the elders preserved in Judaism?

Lets just think for a moment about the thousands that did convert from both houses and became known by that new name....christian. Did they cease to be Israelite just because their name changed? This is NOT replacement theology....it is simply following prophesy. Go into all the earth and preach the gospel to every nation. I will sow you throughout all the earth. Go to the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. The declaration of Abroath states that it was Andrew the brother of Jesus that took the good news to the Scotts. There are churches in England dating from 15 AD. Those rascally disciples sure messed up that mission eh?? They were supposed to go to the dispersed Israelites.....and they went to the gentiles instead!

OH WAIT!
Ephraim was prophesied in Gen 48 to become a MULTITUDE of NATIONS. That sure didn't happen before they were dispersed. Hmmm. How many knew that the word translated nations in that verse is the same Hebrew word Goy that is also translated gentiles? That PROVES gentiles doesn't mean non Israelite! In fact gentiles is from the latin gentilis meaning from the same gens clan or tribe. It was once an acknowledgement of the familial relationship between the Jews and Gentiles....not intended to be opposites and indicating no relationship.

The scepter shall not depart from Judah nor a lawgiver from between his feet till Shiloh be come...AND TO HIM SHALL THE GATHERING OF THE PEOPLE BE. Looking for lost tribes really doesn't make sense in light of what prophesy said would happen. Both houses came together and appointed themselves one head Hosea 1:11 They are now called children of the living God.

If someone believes that Jesus/Yeshua is the son of God and died for sins then that one is as much YHWH's servant as any Israelite....and very likely is Israelite too given how much they have been sown in all the earth.
But that is a less common view.

 

[IshChayil]

I was just answering Sam's question, not really looking to get into British Israelism here;
It's quite tiresome actually. Anyone can read about it on wikipedia
This is the Messianic / Hebrew roots section.
Yep, it's pretty well accepted among both Messianics and Hebrew roots that the Jews are still the Jews, that as Paul wrote G-d Himself has pulled a veil over their eyes until the fullness of the Gentiles come in. One does not have to be "messianic" to be the progeny of Yaqov.
Joleane is coming from the position that the English people are the descendants of the lost tribes so ... you're gonna get that theory pushing through here; not the majority Messianic and Hebrew roots opinion.
The British Israelism research is, ahem, creative.
I won't be responding to most of Joeleane's posts b/c they are hard for me to follow usually.
If you wish to push British Israelism let's have that outside the Messianic Jews/Hebrew Roots area. We aren't looking to be proselytized to that cult here.
This is a bit of a sanctuary where we can interact with each other; not have arguments with British Israelites or others mocking our faith systems.
** edit **
the answer I gave to Sam's question concerning "Jewishness" is very standard; the idea that Jews may be wrong in how we define Jewishness is outside the scope of that question.
Messianic Jews and Hebrew Roots have varying opinions on what happens to Jews who don't believe in Yeshua but generally do not consider them to not be the seed of Ya'aqov. So again, Sam asked how Jews see Jewishness, I answered; now you are attacking that answer regarding our opinion. Nothing you say would change my answer of how we see Jewishness. Seems just argumentative. Again, I'm' not interested in debating British Israelism; maybe it's good for you so enjoy.

 

[steve]

I’m just focused on living out life in the manner that Yah desires.
My eyes glaze over with the politics of religion.

This is a bit of a sanctuary where we can interact with each other

Amen

 

[Joleneakamama]

If you wish to push British Israelism let's have that outside the Messianic Jews/Hebrew Roots area. We aren't looking to be proselytized to that cult here.

I only brought out historical evidense that supports the scriptures related to the search for "lost tribes." I posted no links trying to direct anyone to a "cult."

The problem with looking for list tribes that resemble modern Jews is that YHWH said He would make the new covenant with both houses of Israel, also the prophesied said that they would be sown in all the earth and gathered to Christ. Even in Isaiah (ch 56 I think) He said He would gather others to him other than those that were gathered....and He called them strangers.

So looking for "tribes" outside of the new covenant is looking for proof of YHWH's failure.....or like looking for rainbows in the dark.
His word is accomplished....not void.

 

[IshChayil]

...So looking for "tribes" outside of the new covenant is looking for proof of YHWH's failure.....or like looking for rainbows in the dark.
His word is accomplished....not void....

Your meaning of a tribe of Israel being someone who must "Believe in Christ" is not the standard understanding of this; and is not what the op. was asking about when she nicely and humbly posed her question using Native Americans as an example.
Let's real it in to be thread relevant.
I don't have the interest to have debate with someone who believes Jews today are really Edomites and the English are the real jews.
there's only so much silly I can entertain. The numbers associated with Ephraim need to be considered in line with the numbers assigned to the descendants of Abraham (numerous as the sands and stars, so Quintillians if we must be literal as you are with Ephraim).
Anyway, this thread is not the place to hash out British Israelism or if the Jews today are fakers who are really from Edom and not Jacob (A british israelism tenant), it's about the popular understanding of "lost tribe of Jacob".
I presented information about Menasheh, how the modern state of Israel (a miracle) has accepted Menasheh's tribal status.
That was germaine to @ginger2 's thread.

If you want to get into tenants of British Israelism, this thread is hardly the place. Theologically anyone who trusts in G-d and believes the Messiah died for their sins and was raised again has been adopted into "spiritual" Israel but this is not what the op. was asking about.

 

[FollowingHim]

In @Joleneakamama's post, she does not in any way talk about the British being Jewish or anything like that, that debate is not even happening here @IshChayil (or wasn't until you mentioned it, maybe people will start now you've brought it up, but I agree with you that it would be unprofitable).

This is the Hebrew Roots / Messianic section. It exists for discussion of all things Torah, between those who believe Torah should be followed today. The Hebrew Roots camp is a very broad one, and includes those people who consider themselves to be of Israelite ancestry for whatever reason and believe they should follow Torah as a result. It is not limited to Messianic Jews, it is broader than that. I would not want this section to be taken over by one subset of "Hebrew Roots / Messianic" believers any more than I would want the entire forum to be taken over by any one subset of Christianity to the exclusion of others.

This subsection exists so people can discuss Torah without being frustrated by repeated arguments of "but Torah is not relevant to us because Jesus frees us from the Law". Not to control that discussion of Torah to fit within only one set of predetermined parameters.

The original question of this thread was whether Native Americans came from the "lost tribes" of Israel. Jolene's fundamental point seems to be that yes, they might be, given that Ephraim was prophesied to become a "multitude of nations", but what matters far more is whether they're following Yeshua. Which is entirely relevant, and I think we all agree with it also, @IshChayil included. There is no need to take other matters that people might have argued over on other threads and drag them into this discussion just because the same people are here.

 

[FollowingHim]

@IshChayil, thankyou for answering my question. This does get complex! I think the reason I found your initial comment confusing was simply that it was an off-hand comment from yourself that was too brief to truly reflect the complexity of reality, and the limitations of English. Your clarification about the Russian language is useful to know. I find it interesting that there is such a broad diversity of opinion within Judaism on this.

I can understand the Karaite position (father), and the Reformed position (father or mother). Where does the Orthodox position come from? Why do they believe that tribal affiliation comes through the mother's line only, and not the father's line? It seems a strange position to begin with and I cannot understand why they would hold it.

 

[PeteR]

Trying very hard not to wade into this discussion...

Know this: Judaism and Christianity both commit the theological and historical error of conflating 'Israel' (house of, aka northern kingdom) with 'Judah' (house of, aka Jew). Context is king! Post 2 Kings 12, the terms refer to two different groups of people with two different prophetic destinies that converge at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom. God clearly says that HE viewed them as sister brides in Egypt... Ezekile 23.

And, a still more radical thought: BOTH Judaism AND Christianity have blindness in part until the fulfillment of all things. Both are religious constructs meant to 'guard their own house' resulting in sister brides that squabble and fight.

If anyone can understand the dynamic over the last 2700+ years, it is a bunch of people who understand poly!

https://natsab.com/2018/03/02/does-god-have-two-brides/

This debate over who is/isn't Jewish, who is/isn't house of Israel, etc. who has access/rights/etc won't be resolved short of Messiah Yeshua placing BOTH houses in a crucible so we are forced to acknowledge each other and work together... welcome to the Great Tribulation.

Best bet is to learn to love and walk at peace with both houses before the husband returns from His long trip...

Shalom!

 

[Joleneakamama]

If this reconciliation and rejoining is future, how do you explain this?

Eph. 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

 

[The Revolting Man]

If this reconciliation and rejoining is future, how do you explain this?

Eph. 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

This passage isn’t talking about Judah and Israel but rather Jews and Christians.