Thank you
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Making Progress on the church acceptance front
- Thread starter Daniel DeLuca
- Start date
Another thought: it's worth keeping in focus that one of the secondary but important objections that the average woman has to polygamy is that she's convinced that she'll never be all that special to her polygamous husband, when what she has been programmed to expect is that she should be treated as very special, almost like a princess. Sometimes when you write, you give the impression that you are casting your net very wide, only refraining from casting it even wider because all your potential love interests aren't yet widows or have never been divorced.
This, my intuition say, is golden advice -- and at some point in the past I realized something just like this and almost entirely ceased my pursuits. Still open to it -- very open to it -- but I'm not pushing the envelope like I was. Into that breach my wife has made leaps and bounds moving toward embrace of being part of a plural family.
Are you muzzled by the church? Or are you muzzled by your need to belong to it?
And if there isn't some other compelling reason to form a non-polygamy-agenda relationship with a particular woman, then there probably isn't much depth in one's desire to marry her.
Context, Daniel, but I suppose you could try out wandering around in the Middle Eastern deserts mimicking the lifestyles of Jacob or David.
Here's my question about this, @Daniel DeLuca: if you were never-married single (as this young woman is) and you found yourself attracted to her in the context of not knowing about polygamy, would your moves be to start off by telling her that you are eager to marry her, followed up by explaining your exact position of what would be the perfect marriage? I knew a young man years ago (one of my students) who did just that for the first half of his first (and only) date with a young woman he was convinced was going to bear all of his many future children. The second half of the date was him taking her to the grave plot of his grandmother 25 miles away so she could watch him carry on a one-sided conversation with his grandmother. Neither of these things did anything but convince the young woman that she never wanted to see him again.
You're in too much of a hurry. I understand the temptation, believe me, especially at my age (67), because, you know, time's-a-wastin'! But when you try to rush things, you just ensure failure in advance.
I even think this is too much. I'd more likely recommend going to a mainstream low-boundaries dating site and posting a profile representing yourself and your beliefs, along the lines of what I used to maintain, because then women have the opportunity to organically read where you're coming from, and when they contact you, at least you know they have a damn good heads up. I promise you you will get attention there. It's a lot of work sifting through the responses, but you'll get attention.Why don’t you email her something short and sweet (not long and drawn out!) about you and your wife’s basic beliefs in plural (don’t argue it or it sounds like you are just justifying it), let her know what you’ve found attractive about her (hopefully it’s more than just physically), let her know she is free to ask you and/or your wife any questions she may have about it (because, let’s face it 99% of Christian church women will have never had plural cross their minds as being an option, or even come to desire it alone), and don’t throw out “you never have to speak to me again”- that’s an easy out and sounds a bit childish. Maybe even invite her to look at the forum for things she might be curious about, if the mods remove this section of convos lol. Obviously, if she comes back and says, no thank you, leave it at that. No need to keep incessantly messaging her or you come across desperate/ someone she is glad she only gave her email to. That’s my 2 cents at least. Take it for what it’s worth
My other recommendation is to seek out a church that doesn't so thoroughly condemn you for your position, because that is an environment where people are going to be even more likely than average to think you're a creep, because they are in that church because they share most of the inner-circle-club beliefs of the church -- a church which has already treated you like a pariah whom they are simply tolerating.
So I'll provide a recent example of an experience. As should be relatively clear to anyone who pays attention, I'm not a big fan of seeking either virgins or sweet young things -- for many reasons. There have been a small number of exceptions, though, most notably my wife (who, just to keep things straight, was the one who did almost every bit of the pursuing), who was an 18-year-old co-ed at the university where I as a 33-year-old director of a 1200-student high-rise brought in for the purpose of bringing it back from the brink of behavioral suicide.
A couple years back, though, I found myself, at age 65, totally smitten by a 30-year-old coworker of Kristin's. For many reasons, this did not pan out, and I never even told the young woman that I was interested in her, because of the complications it would have created for Kristin, who was in some senses both her coworker and her supervisor. I remain convinced that Natalee would have been a perfect fit for us, and ultimately Kristin gave me permission to eventually actively pursue Natalee should their employment statuses change but that in the meantime I had to keep it platonic. Natalee obviously appreciated me, because she did the majority of the initiation of engagement as our friendship progressed . . . right up until the moment when she suddenly requested from Kristin that she stop her husband from contacting her. Kristin thinks Natalee's family started noticing how many times she was referring to her new friend Keith who was husband of her work mentor and laid something on her along the lines of, "It sounds like you're getting too chummy with someone else's husband." In any case, she bolted, and I haven't had any contact with her since. I was tempted to reach out to her just to tell her that I thought it was a shame that we couldn't be friends, but my intuition and judgment told me that this was one to just . . . let go.
Recently -- and ironically it was in the midst of one of our recent discussions about seeking young virgins, within which I was advising putting on the brakes to recognize that such unicorns just aren't in the cards for most of us -- I became acquainted with a 17-year-old friend of a friend of my 16-year-old daughter. She has had special life circumstances (bizarre, constricting family; lives with the friend half the week), but both Kristin and I find her delightful, because every time we spend time with her we both feel refreshed by it. Despite her youth, she is highly respectful, always proactively offers to help when help is needed, and she likes to probe philosophical and political topics in depth. I began to fantasize about the obviously ridiculous possibility of somehow eventually finding a way to take her out on a date, but my judgment said that the only thing to do was to just enjoy any interaction I have with her and be open with her, like I am with most people, about my beliefs -- but to only share those beliefs in the context of discussions in which sharing them would be an entirely natural thing to occur. And that was fine with me. I know the young woman has tentative plans to move in with her friend and her friend's single mother when she, the young woman, graduates from high school at the end of May, but I began to think in the privacy of my own mind about how it might be a good idea for us to invite her to live with us when that happens, because we would be a more stable, mature family for her to live with, and it would also be a natural way for all of us to get together. As if perhaps part of some Divine guidance, a friend here at Biblical Families then made just such a suggestion to me about inviting her into our home. Shortly thereafter, without prompting from me, my wife floated the idea to me. After discussing it and thinking that it would be good to wait a while to make the suggestion to her, Kristin then one day announced to me that she thinks I should wait until she reaches her birthday at the end of this August, but not to invite her to live with us -- which could be done earlier -- but to, on or after she reaches age 18 and would thus be a full adult in some respects, add to what she already knows about me and the way I think telling her everything about my beliefs about Biblical polygamy and plural marriage, proceeding from there if she didn't react poorly to, at my own pace, inform her that I would like to court her. When I expressed surprise, Kristin said that we both clearly have a high opinion of the girl but that it was obvious to her that my interest in her went beyond just being enlivened by her presence and that, given the special-circumstances maturity demonstrated by her, she believes that having her in our family permanently would be good for every one of us.
So what am I doing? I'm waiting. For reasons related to the single mother in question, we cross paths less frequently now. We are also about to move permanently away from the apartment complex where we met them, so contact will decrease further, but that won't stop me from reaching out in late summer even if we've lost touch altogether.
I do not have some sense that this is something foreordained by God for us. I have had that sense before, and I have usually been wrong (my third wife was the most notable exception, but it obviously wasn't related to being a permanent relationship), so I'm skeptical about that inside myself now. Desire can really do a number on objectivity. So I am going to live my life, and any natural opportunity I have to interact with her I will make the most of, but my focus for now will only be on enjoying the friendship and getting to know her better as I give her the opportunity to get to know me better. What are the odds that she and I will ever be married? Slim to none, but, like you, @Daniel DeLuca, I'm an eternal optimist and will risk getting knocked down by rejection to be available to a glorious possibility. That optimism, though, I am convinced, has to be tempered by common sense, and common sense says that the focus right now should be entirely on friendship, because without that there isn't even really a point in pursuing romance or long-term commitment.
A couple years back, though, I found myself, at age 65, totally smitten by a 30-year-old coworker of Kristin's. For many reasons, this did not pan out, and I never even told the young woman that I was interested in her, because of the complications it would have created for Kristin, who was in some senses both her coworker and her supervisor. I remain convinced that Natalee would have been a perfect fit for us, and ultimately Kristin gave me permission to eventually actively pursue Natalee should their employment statuses change but that in the meantime I had to keep it platonic. Natalee obviously appreciated me, because she did the majority of the initiation of engagement as our friendship progressed . . . right up until the moment when she suddenly requested from Kristin that she stop her husband from contacting her. Kristin thinks Natalee's family started noticing how many times she was referring to her new friend Keith who was husband of her work mentor and laid something on her along the lines of, "It sounds like you're getting too chummy with someone else's husband." In any case, she bolted, and I haven't had any contact with her since. I was tempted to reach out to her just to tell her that I thought it was a shame that we couldn't be friends, but my intuition and judgment told me that this was one to just . . . let go.
Recently -- and ironically it was in the midst of one of our recent discussions about seeking young virgins, within which I was advising putting on the brakes to recognize that such unicorns just aren't in the cards for most of us -- I became acquainted with a 17-year-old friend of a friend of my 16-year-old daughter. She has had special life circumstances (bizarre, constricting family; lives with the friend half the week), but both Kristin and I find her delightful, because every time we spend time with her we both feel refreshed by it. Despite her youth, she is highly respectful, always proactively offers to help when help is needed, and she likes to probe philosophical and political topics in depth. I began to fantasize about the obviously ridiculous possibility of somehow eventually finding a way to take her out on a date, but my judgment said that the only thing to do was to just enjoy any interaction I have with her and be open with her, like I am with most people, about my beliefs -- but to only share those beliefs in the context of discussions in which sharing them would be an entirely natural thing to occur. And that was fine with me. I know the young woman has tentative plans to move in with her friend and her friend's single mother when she, the young woman, graduates from high school at the end of May, but I began to think in the privacy of my own mind about how it might be a good idea for us to invite her to live with us when that happens, because we would be a more stable, mature family for her to live with, and it would also be a natural way for all of us to get together. As if perhaps part of some Divine guidance, a friend here at Biblical Families then made just such a suggestion to me about inviting her into our home. Shortly thereafter, without prompting from me, my wife floated the idea to me. After discussing it and thinking that it would be good to wait a while to make the suggestion to her, Kristin then one day announced to me that she thinks I should wait until she reaches her birthday at the end of this August, but not to invite her to live with us -- which could be done earlier -- but to, on or after she reaches age 18 and would thus be a full adult in some respects, add to what she already knows about me and the way I think telling her everything about my beliefs about Biblical polygamy and plural marriage, proceeding from there if she didn't react poorly to, at my own pace, inform her that I would like to court her. When I expressed surprise, Kristin said that we both clearly have a high opinion of the girl but that it was obvious to her that my interest in her went beyond just being enlivened by her presence and that, given the special-circumstances maturity demonstrated by her, she believes that having her in our family permanently would be good for every one of us.
So what am I doing? I'm waiting. For reasons related to the single mother in question, we cross paths less frequently now. We are also about to move permanently away from the apartment complex where we met them, so contact will decrease further, but that won't stop me from reaching out in late summer even if we've lost touch altogether.
I do not have some sense that this is something foreordained by God for us. I have had that sense before, and I have usually been wrong (my third wife was the most notable exception, but it obviously wasn't related to being a permanent relationship), so I'm skeptical about that inside myself now. Desire can really do a number on objectivity. So I am going to live my life, and any natural opportunity I have to interact with her I will make the most of, but my focus for now will only be on enjoying the friendship and getting to know her better as I give her the opportunity to get to know me better. What are the odds that she and I will ever be married? Slim to none, but, like you, @Daniel DeLuca, I'm an eternal optimist and will risk getting knocked down by rejection to be available to a glorious possibility. That optimism, though, I am convinced, has to be tempered by common sense, and common sense says that the focus right now should be entirely on friendship, because without that there isn't even really a point in pursuing romance or long-term commitment.
More like, muzzled by the desire to keep my word. I said I wouldn't so I don't believe it would be right to do so.
Well, I have played this out in my mind, and I see four potential outcomes, and for all but one of them, it is possible that there could be a combination of them. This is of course assuming she doesn't just jump into my arms and say, "Yes, you can court me!!!"
a) She could report me to the church, and the church finally says, "enough is enough...you are out."
If so, so be it. I'm ready to be a sacrificial lamb. I doubt that will happen though.
b) She could take time to pray about it. I might not hear anything back from her for a while.
If so, I'll still see her at church and be friendly with her and continue use my eyes to flirt with her. I won't press it though, or even bring it up.
c) She could become besties with my wife.
I like that scenario, and I'm sure most of you would like to be in that scenario as well. I know that my wife would like to get to know her.
d) She might just go to biblicalfamilies.org and do some research.
I would suspect that if she does, we will see some activity from a new member, who seems particularly interested in my activities.
I would guess that b) is the most likely to happen, d) is next, followed by c.
a) She could report me to the church, and the church finally says, "enough is enough...you are out."
If so, so be it. I'm ready to be a sacrificial lamb. I doubt that will happen though.
b) She could take time to pray about it. I might not hear anything back from her for a while.
If so, I'll still see her at church and be friendly with her and continue use my eyes to flirt with her. I won't press it though, or even bring it up.
c) She could become besties with my wife.
I like that scenario, and I'm sure most of you would like to be in that scenario as well. I know that my wife would like to get to know her.
d) She might just go to biblicalfamilies.org and do some research.
I would suspect that if she does, we will see some activity from a new member, who seems particularly interested in my activities.
I would guess that b) is the most likely to happen, d) is next, followed by c.
e) She might respond with "don't talk to me again".
f) She might ignore the email, not reply, avoid talking to you in person, maybe even switching churches to avoid you, because it's simply made her too uncomfortable to know what to do.
I'd guess e is most likely, followed by f, d and a in that order. But I don't know her. I'm just posting to add a couple of highly likely possibilities you had missed.
f) She might ignore the email, not reply, avoid talking to you in person, maybe even switching churches to avoid you, because it's simply made her too uncomfortable to know what to do.
I'd guess e is most likely, followed by f, d and a in that order. But I don't know her. I'm just posting to add a couple of highly likely possibilities you had missed.
Nah! If e) were to happen, she would have done so by now.
The high probability is that even as much as you've hinted, etc, she's entirely oblivious to plural because it is so far out of her box, she can't even imagine it.
Yep. "Good Christians" don't do THAT!
No...I didn't drop hints. I spelled it out for her.
Good Christian women shouldn't even have feelings for a married man, but that was the reasoning behind why I used nonverbal communication with her, before getting to that point.Yep. "Good Christians" don't do THAT!
I like that "and hers" remark
I do applaud your bravery in this situation.