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Married man and married woman friendships?
- Thread starter DeathIsNotTheEnd
- Start date
Totally agree. My statement wasn’t meant as a disagreement to what others have in place to guard against problems. Mearly an explanation of my experience.
Would you say that about any other sin? Or about God's relationship with us?
It's not a question of good women vs. bad women; but of temptation. We're all tempted by sin. It's best not to put oneself into situations where those temptations are increased. Same goes for men protecting themselves from temptations with women (or more specifically married women for the PM minded).
Safeguards are just that and should be appreciated if one understands the spirit of them and wants to avoid temptation. If rules cause a negative relationship spiral you have a deeper problem.
I second that 'Wow', not just for what you've written above but the TG Shepard song lyrics. IshChayil makes an excellent point about boundaries being a good hedge but whether the boundaries are there or not is not a sin. There is some wisdom, @steve, in the old saw about how one has to be willing to let go of someone to find out if s/he belongs to you, and you've pointed solidly in that direction with your comments. No amount of rules will prevent becoming distant or failure to provide appropriate attention. We have to be careful not to fall prey to thinking we're entitled to the relationships into which we've entered, even when strong covenants are in place. Earning the ongoing presence of a loved one is an ongoing responsibility.
I, for one, am going to seriously contemplate what I've read throughout this thread. I agree that exceptions exist, but I can't argue with it being a good general rule for married men to avoid isolated intimate contact with married women. God designed us to be drawn to each other, and in my experience the platonic closeness only enhances the likelihood of sexual desire becoming a major temptation.
Like @steve, I don't see a need for a list of specific rules. Yet boundaries are a good thing. They don't necessarily have to be thought through completely and turned into a list of rules though if you follow common sense.
I trust my wife, she trusts me, and we communicate. That's the key.
I do think it is unwise for a man to hire a married female secretary or similar employee. You can end up spending more time with your secretary than you do with your wife, and we all know where that can lead. Either have an unmarried & unattached secretary, or an elderly one who's of no interest to you...
I trust my wife, she trusts me, and we communicate. That's the key.
I do think it is unwise for a man to hire a married female secretary or similar employee. You can end up spending more time with your secretary than you do with your wife, and we all know where that can lead. Either have an unmarried & unattached secretary, or an elderly one who's of no interest to you...
"I don't see a need for rules. I have no rules for my wife. But men, here is a rule for you!"
That's not a rule. You hire whatever secretary you like. But it's good advice.
In the same way, I haven't set any particular boundaries on this matter for my wife - because I don't need to, she's not going to do anything stupid. If she were at risk of such temptation, I might need to set some boundaries - but as Steve has hinted at, the first thing is to ensure that you're more attractive than any other option, then the temptation doesn't exist anyway.
In the same way, I haven't set any particular boundaries on this matter for my wife - because I don't need to, she's not going to do anything stupid. If she were at risk of such temptation, I might need to set some boundaries - but as Steve has hinted at, the first thing is to ensure that you're more attractive than any other option, then the temptation doesn't exist anyway.
There's another aspect of this. I don't need to set boundaries in this area for windblown. But out of a desire to avoid social awkwardness or because she wanted to be polite she might feel pressured to be in a situation she was uncomfortable with. My rules can give her support and encouragement even when I'm not around.
Or, an honest reply that defends her: 'My husband does not allow me to have friendships with married men.'
Yes this is exactly it!
Oh good catch. I didn’t notice that.Correction:
Well, I can't say that I disagree with any of the wisdom on here. I fully agree.
Even so, I find myself in a position in life where my best friend is a married woman. I am really good friends with her husband also.
Now, that isn't to say that I wouldn't mind having a male friendship take first place, but I simply do not have that right now.
We are like family. I hope that never changes.
That isn't to say we don't have boundaries. Indeed, we decided long ago that the friendship is (and our respective marriages are) worth protecting with secure boundaries.
Even so, I find myself in a position in life where my best friend is a married woman. I am really good friends with her husband also.
Now, that isn't to say that I wouldn't mind having a male friendship take first place, but I simply do not have that right now.
We are like family. I hope that never changes.
That isn't to say we don't have boundaries. Indeed, we decided long ago that the friendship is (and our respective marriages are) worth protecting with secure boundaries.
Something that has been on my mind:
I think it is really a matter of headship and one-ness. My wife is a part of me, and is mine. For a man to pursue her as anything other than a friendly acquaintance without me is inappropriate in my opinion: because the first thing a man should know about her is that she is mine, and taken. I dont expect to be friends or buddies with every male my wife is friends with, but I expect them to be friends with her 'through' me, if that makes sense. Through an attitude of respect and acknowledgement of me. To do otherwise is, in my opinion, to cut me out and attempt to ignore or go behind my back.
Practically... I guess the example would be if a coworker knew my wife and knows she is married, before asking her to come to a holiday party herself or asking her to join him and his wife for dinner after work, I would expect him to first extend the invitation to me. To at least attempt to show some deference to me as her head by opening a line with me initially. If we didn't hit it off or I felt it was needed, then I could decline or show no interest and if my wife still wanted to be couple friends or whatever, fine.
I think it is really a matter of headship and one-ness. My wife is a part of me, and is mine. For a man to pursue her as anything other than a friendly acquaintance without me is inappropriate in my opinion: because the first thing a man should know about her is that she is mine, and taken. I dont expect to be friends or buddies with every male my wife is friends with, but I expect them to be friends with her 'through' me, if that makes sense. Through an attitude of respect and acknowledgement of me. To do otherwise is, in my opinion, to cut me out and attempt to ignore or go behind my back.
Practically... I guess the example would be if a coworker knew my wife and knows she is married, before asking her to come to a holiday party herself or asking her to join him and his wife for dinner after work, I would expect him to first extend the invitation to me. To at least attempt to show some deference to me as her head by opening a line with me initially. If we didn't hit it off or I felt it was needed, then I could decline or show no interest and if my wife still wanted to be couple friends or whatever, fine.
I can see no reason for a man to be friends with a married woman outside of restricted spheres. Many of us have to work in mixed environments and so have to be friendly but that doesn't require a deeper "friendship".
I agree, even tho we live in different times, the times should not change certain aspects of how we relate to one another. Your comment was dead on.
Expect or insist? If insist, well it's your show, you run it any way you want to. I have my own rules as well.
If expect... good luck! The world doesn't run that way and you know it. They'd never think to ask you first based on the patriarchal principles that their grandparents rejected.
I think the only reasonable thing is to tell your wife what you expect about her behavior, that way no matter what the outside world does, your wife knows how she is to respond. Feeling marginalized by the outside world however is a feature, not a bug. Of course they are going to ignore you. I ignore the daylights out of people I have no interest in.
ONCE UPON A TIME:
I led a young lady to the Lord. She was a single girl at the time and we were friends at work. She met with me a couple of times outside of work while I was telling her about the way to be saved. A couple of years pass and she rents a house with her new husband and her child in tow, right across the street from my house. So on occasion I'd have a smoke with her on her porch and on occasion my wife and I would invite her over for tea. Now as it happens, I have nothing in common with her husband. He's a good dude, but the point of teas and cigarettes is conversation. I'm a bloody handed patriarch, but at no point did I ever consider inviting him over to my house for awkward conversation that I would not enjoy.
Remember a husband has the authority to nullify a vow his wife makes on the day that he hears of it. A woman doesn't have to consult her husband before making a commitment (tho on occasion she may be wise to do so). I am not by nature a social person, so the person I invite to my house is the person I want to spend time with. Generally that bag is empty, but if I have a female friend at work that I have something to say to, chances are I have almost zero interest in meeting her husband, or spending time on introductory niceties before I get down to whatever business I have in mind. A man that felt that I had overstepped my bounds by not consulting him first I would mostly just roll my eyes at. Fragile masculinity, indeed. However, if he tells his wife that he doesn't know me and would like to come along for propriety's sake, or for safety, or because he simply wants to meet me; or again if he denies his wife permission to attend for whatever reason he has... I would respect.
Furthermore, if she came over without her husband's blessing and in spite of his wishes, I would send her away.
Y
You do you man.
But in my mind, men ought to respect each other as the heads of their families, including wives. Just like we respect each other as heads of the house. It would be weird for a guy to show up at my house while I was out and ask to borrow my car, just like it would be weird for me wife to say yes without asking me.... it being mine. In the same way, a guy making no overture or whatever first, and then pursuing something with my wife (asking her out for lunch, especially to his house, etc...) that would be equally weird. She is not just alone. She is not single. She is a part of me, and I am a part of her. What possible legitimate reason would there be for someone to cut me out of a relationship with her, or vice versa? I dont expect, like I said, to be friends with every guy my wife is friends with. Or to really know them well. And you're right, the likelihood is very few people would interact in the way I 'expect'. But, A: that doesn't mean it is good anymore than it is good that we can't expect most people to respond lovingly to our attitudes about polygyny, and B: my experience has actually been that most guys who my wife is friends with DO respect me in that way. In the last 4 years at least, I cannot think of a single time that a coworker or friend of my wife's has not invited me to the same event, asked me first, or whatever. In the last 4 years no man has, to my knowledge, invited my wife to something alone (without me), except in the case of work stuff (obviously her boss doesnt invite me to their work group at-work coffee get togethers). They seek to know me and respect me as her husband, and I appreciate that immensely. It helps me to trust their intentions and interactions with my wife, so that I can freely CHOOSE not to go to lunch with, say, my wife and her friend Adam and his wife. Instead of feeling like I need to because Adam goes behind my back in trying to be alone with her, for instance.
I obviously dont know your situation exactly, but whether you knew my wife before I came into her life or not, if you called her up while I wasnt home and were like "hey Amy, do you want to come over, not with Mark?", I would probably strongly advise you not to call her up anymore. Because it would come off as going behind my back, possibly trying to get closer to her than is appropriate. Now, if you and I werent great buddies but you called up and said "hey, you and Mark want to come over for dinner?", I might say "nah, honey, you go ahead and have fun with your friends, Im gonna stay home". But then it would be my choice, out of trust for you, rather than that choice being taken from me.
You do you man.
But in my mind, men ought to respect each other as the heads of their families, including wives. Just like we respect each other as heads of the house. It would be weird for a guy to show up at my house while I was out and ask to borrow my car, just like it would be weird for me wife to say yes without asking me.... it being mine. In the same way, a guy making no overture or whatever first, and then pursuing something with my wife (asking her out for lunch, especially to his house, etc...) that would be equally weird. She is not just alone. She is not single. She is a part of me, and I am a part of her. What possible legitimate reason would there be for someone to cut me out of a relationship with her, or vice versa? I dont expect, like I said, to be friends with every guy my wife is friends with. Or to really know them well. And you're right, the likelihood is very few people would interact in the way I 'expect'. But, A: that doesn't mean it is good anymore than it is good that we can't expect most people to respond lovingly to our attitudes about polygyny, and B: my experience has actually been that most guys who my wife is friends with DO respect me in that way. In the last 4 years at least, I cannot think of a single time that a coworker or friend of my wife's has not invited me to the same event, asked me first, or whatever. In the last 4 years no man has, to my knowledge, invited my wife to something alone (without me), except in the case of work stuff (obviously her boss doesnt invite me to their work group at-work coffee get togethers). They seek to know me and respect me as her husband, and I appreciate that immensely. It helps me to trust their intentions and interactions with my wife, so that I can freely CHOOSE not to go to lunch with, say, my wife and her friend Adam and his wife. Instead of feeling like I need to because Adam goes behind my back in trying to be alone with her, for instance.
I obviously dont know your situation exactly, but whether you knew my wife before I came into her life or not, if you called her up while I wasnt home and were like "hey Amy, do you want to come over, not with Mark?", I would probably strongly advise you not to call her up anymore. Because it would come off as going behind my back, possibly trying to get closer to her than is appropriate. Now, if you and I werent great buddies but you called up and said "hey, you and Mark want to come over for dinner?", I might say "nah, honey, you go ahead and have fun with your friends, Im gonna stay home". But then it would be my choice, out of trust for you, rather than that choice being taken from me.
I fully agree. But what that looks like is going to differ from person to person. If we were neighbors (under the specific circumstances that I outlined for myself above) I would run afoul of your expectations, not because I wish to disrespect your headship, but because the way I handle my headship quite differently and have no reason to expect otherwise until you make it know.
So me doing me will cause hard feelings, hard feelings that you will claim are legitimate because I ought to have known better to invite your wife without consulting you.
Your initial post is something that I agreed with. I too find it weird and even inappropriate for a man to pursue a close relationship with a married woman. The bridge too far for me is the assumption that I must invite people I don't know or ask permission to invite someone that I already know, without the husband first having made it known that it is his preference. My own presumptions is that the wife would already know the rules.
If it's against the rules, the wife should decline my invitation or inform me that the change in her marital status has added procedures. There's no need for me to assume anything. Especially to assume something that I do not personally adhere to and haven't heard of before.
If it's against the rules and the wife does not inform me: well then! There certainly is a problem! But the problem is that the headship/submission mechanism is broken in my neighbors house, not my standard operating procedures.
Now if I invite me friend over and her husband throws a fit about it, I'll still apologize for the offense (even though to me, it only exists in his head) and if I have any further business, I'll either jump through his hoops... or cut her right out depending on what I think is reasonable. I would fully support her husband's ruleset and invite him over or stop inviting her over by herself even if I think it's unnecessary or hamfisted, to support his headship and not provide support for her rebellion. But it's her rebellion, it's his failure of leadership that has caused this breakdown, not my friendly overtures.
Every tribe has it's own tribal law. My tribe is a weird one, and I have no reason to believe anyone else's tribal law wouldn't be just as alien to me as mine is to them. Expecting others to instinctively know what I consider proper is a recipe for me to feel continuously intruded on. More important than my neighbor's ideas are that my own tribe knows and respects my law, and that I communicate that to others before taking offense. Does that make sense?