Martin Luther

[Paul not the apostle]

The speaker on sunday quoted Martin Luther as saying that the jews were the urine of satan. The implication was probably because of luthers support of polygamy not being a sin. However, it did prompt me to do an internet search of Luther's sayings, etc. just because I have learned to not trust what is said from the pulpit. I was very much shocked. I had no idea that Luther used the type of speech and language that he did. Has anyone studied his works, or his writings, or taken even a cursory look at his stuff? If you have and have come to any conclusions regarding his sanity or him in general, I would appreciate it.

thanks,

 

[Melanie]

He was quite the radical. However, his views on Jewish people were par for the course for Europe in his day. His statements regarding jews should not be considered particularly shocking in context.

There is an interesting documentary called "Constantine's sword" that explores christian antisemitism it goes into some detail regarding historical persecutions against jews, including those that occurred around Luther's time and were sanctioned by the christian church. Actually the film serves as an apology of sorts, which kind of rubbed me up the wrong way but YMMV it was quite interesting.

 

[rusty_armor]

Has anyone studied his works, or his writings, or taken even a cursory look at his stuff? If you have and have come to any conclusions regarding his sanity or him in general, I would appreciate it.

thanks,

Jews have long known about Luther's hatred of them. Luther thought at first his refomation would attract Jews to the church, but when they didn't flock to him, he became abusive towards them. Somewhere in my disorganized stacks of quips and quotes is a five pages of Luthers anti-semitic spewings that was circulated by a local synagogue. As a Jew, I was offended, and as a Christian, I was stunned by this mans rantings.

 

[Mark C]

I have been disturbed as well by some of Luther's opinions as well, Paul, and concur with Rusty's sense of offense, but I think Melanie's insight is correct - much of that is a product of his time, and the history of antisemitism in the "Church" is undeniable, and arguably far more harmful. Like most of us, Luther was flawed, and made a number of mistakes -- both of omission and commission. Among the 'church fathers', he has a lot of company.

I tend to think of it this way:

Martin Luther rightly recognized that there was a WHOLE LOT that was wrong with the Catholic Church, and he courageously wrote of and opposed much of that heresy. As a result, much was accomplished.

But only a fraction of what is ultimately necessary.



Blessings in Him,

Mark

 

[Tlaloc]

It should be noted that Luther has both pro Jewish and anti Jewish sentiments in his works. Apparently when he was younger he was quite Jewish sympathetic, but as he got older and had talks with rabbi's that did not go his way his tone changed to the quite vindictive one you see the most of. I can't verify what Rusty Armour was saying, but it very much fits the bill of his change of heart.

Through and through Temperance was not a trait Martin Luther was known to have. The mix of extremely good and extremely bad writings that come from him need to be seen in that light as well as histories.

Actually we are kind of blessed to know his weakness, so we can all the more easily avoid his errors and are not in danger of over exulting him. He is quite picturesquely human.

 

[rusty_armor]

Martin Luther rightly recognized that there was a WHOLE LOT that was wrong with the Catholic Church, and he courageously wrote of and opposed much of that heresy. As a result, much was accomplished.

I know the way you meant it, and I am not at all offended.

But among my people that is a little like saying that Hitler did some good things.

He did. The DIN standard was one of those "good things". But his good things weren't what gave my people grief.

Same with Luther. It wasn't his good things that gave my people grief. How I wish that Luther was the only Christian who felt this way. Just recently the Pope promoted another Jew hating Bishop to a high ranking position in the church. It makes it nearly impossible for me to testify of Y'shuah's love for them.

 

[Mark C]

Mark C wrote:Martin Luther rightly recognized that there was a WHOLE LOT that was wrong with the Catholic Church, and he courageously wrote of and opposed much of that heresy. As a result, much was accomplished.



I know the way you meant it, and I am not at all offended.

I'm thankful you weren't offended, Rusty, and I understand the saying (and have heard it myself from Jewish friends). But I probably could have been more clear.

(Admittedly, when I talk with Jewish friends, I don't think Martin Luther has ever come up. I tend to focus on other things... like how the "Yeshua" I honor is very different from the Torah-breaking figure you've heard about...")

To some extent there was actually a change of DIRECTION in the "Church". The inexorable trend toward MORE paganism, and less Torah, less Tanakh, was actually reversed in a few areas. It didn't go nearly far enough, of course...


Blessings,

Mark

 

[Melanie]

I mean no offense to anyone here but i tend to feel the same way towards Jewish people as i do Muslims...and i do have Muslim friends.
I guess my feeling is sort of neutral or at least my sympathies are more broadly spread. Yes, terrible things happened to the Jews, but terrible things happened to other ethnic/religious groups too.

Just ask the Timorese, the Burmese, the Nepalese. The indigenous populations of South America..the Australian aborigines. They have all suffered holocaust and persecution born out of ignorance and intolerance.

In Luther's day people believed that Jews ate children and drank their blood in rituals, It was accepted as fact.
Appreciating someones good works is not the same as giving approval to their bad works. Expressing gratitude for what Luther did in regards to the church does not mean we have to agree with what he may have said about the Jews.

I really don't understand the connection...perhaps you can explain it, Rusty. Why should the catholic church be worried if they offend Jews anymore than a baptist being concerned about offending a Muslim? Do Jewish people feel they are owed concessions and consideration from other religions? Perhaps as a sort of compensation for persecutions in the past?

 

[rusty_armor]

I really don't understand the connection...perhaps you can explain it, Rusty. Why should the catholic church be worried if they offend Jews anymore than a baptist being concerned about offending a Muslim? Do Jewish people feel they are owed concessions and consideration from other religions? Perhaps as a sort of compensation for persecutions in the past?

If my reply seems harsh and bitter, Melanie, it is because I am harsh and bitter. I am amazed at the courtesy shown by many members in this venue to opposing views. Unfortunately, I am genteelly deficient. I honestly don't like enjoy being offensive, but this is one area that I am not willing to cede so much as a 16th of an inch. Gentiles never weary of asking "What are we going to do about the Jews"? Our fervent hope is that your reply is “Nothing!”. And I hope you understand that the “you's” in my reply are generic and are not intended as a personal offense.

When I was an infant, I lost my entire family to a people who didn't feel that they owed Jews any concessions or considerations either. I would give all for one photograph of my mother’s face, or an article of her clothing. I wonder if I looked at all like my sister. I wonder what it was about my father that made his fellow Poles covet enough to kill him and destroy all evidence of his existence. I wonder what my mother said to me as she handed me over to the nun who was to safeguard me until she returned for me. I wonder what kind of woman it was that put my safety above her own. As it is, I have no remembrance of her.

For you, Melanie, the mass killings are just another ho-hum event in world history. Yeah, Amerindians were massacred. Cambodians were massacred. Gypsies were massacred. So what? But for me it is yet another example of an unremitting drumbeat of Jew hating bigotry that crosses all ethnic lines, infects all religions and gives ammunition to my people to distrust Christ and his messengers, because in the last 1500 years or so, Christians were frequently at the forefront of the persecutions.

Jews see themselves as Russian Jews, English Jews, American Jews. Unfortunately, the world seems to see us as Jewish Russians, Jewish Brits, Jewish Americans. Jews. Damned arrogant Jews. My people die by the millions every time some gentile gets envious of my peoples industry. If you want me in your fellowships, then yeah, I want to see you bleed for the injustices Christians committed on my people.

And Israel is a hope of my people to dwell somewhere in peace and security in this vast sea of bigotry that harries us from pillar to post. It is the only country in the world where a Jew can live without some asshole asking “what are we going to do about the Jewish question.” So yes, I also see the hatred of Israel by Muslims as just another example of that unrelenting hatred of Jews. So unlike you, Melanie, I have no Muslim friends. What fellowship can I have with a religion that wants me and my people destroyed? What fellowship can I have with a people and religion that actively seeks to rub the memory of me and my people off of the map?

Over the centuries, many Jews have sought to blend in with the nations in which they were scattered. It didn’t matter. German Jews thought that their loyalty to Germany and their service in Germany’s military would be proof of their loyalty to Germany. Obviously it wasn’t.

And many of my people thought that their service to Russia would be proof of their loyalty to Stalin, and they even wrote letters to “Papa Joe” from the prisons, thinking that he had no knowledge of their plight.

I am sure that Stalin did some good to the Russian people. And I am sure that Hitler did some good to the German people. And I am sure that Martin Luther did some good to the Christian community. And Sadam Hussein apparently was good to his family. I don’t give a rip. They were all evil men.
There is an increasing level of anti-semitism on the campuses and cyberspace now that didn’t exist a decade ago. And I am already hearing the question in the body of Messiah that damnable question, “What are we going to do about the Jews”? So Melanie, I hope you will at least understand my obnoxiousness in this particular area.

 

[Melanie]

I'm not "ho-hum" about it at all. I just think every human is important and no race should come before any other. I just don't think the Jews have the market cornered when it comes to suffering. It's not that i don't care, as i said, i concern is spread across many people, not just one particular group.

You ask what my answer would be to the question "what are we to do with the Jews?". My answer would indeed be, nothing! Would i be a passive witness to another holocaust? No, but as a Christian with a gentile heritage i certainly don't feel a responsibility or loyalty towards Jews. Yet. you are offended because the catholic church has promoted a bishop who is not so politically correct, I'm just saying that it would be unreasonable to expect other religious institutions to take Jewish feelings into consideration. Just as you probably wouldn't blink to come across a rabbi who hated catholics. I just see other religions as separate entities. Jews hate Muslims and Muslims hate Jews, it's a vicious circle and both groups are responsible.

The English persecuted my ancestors and ravaged their lands for centuries before dumping some of my forebears half way around the world but i don't think the English owe me anything. I understand why you feel so passionate about these issues but no amount of passion can change the past, all you can do is influence the future and bitterness begets more bitterness.

 

[Tlaloc]

I've got to restate that Luther lacked temperance. He hated everyone else, Catholics, Muslims, even other protestant groups. Jews don't even make the top three of the groups he hated, Pope and Turk filled the first two, the pre-Anabaptists (my people) probably filled the third considering the mass slaughter of the peasant revolts.

If you don't like him you should dislike him for being a short tempered jackass, but in the context of everyone he hated he cant be considered to be particularly anti Jew. His colourful descriptions were hardly limited to that group.

Really dislike him any way you want, but in context he didn't really like anybody. As far as it goes he is just a person, if denouncing him helps you outreach its better to denounce him anyway.

But as to the other thing you said, I have noticed the rise of anti-semitic literature on the Internet lately too, it is more than a little worrisome...

 

[rusty_armor]

I'm not "ho-hum" about it at all. I just think every human is important and no race should come before any other. I just don't think the Jews have the market cornered when it comes to suffering. It's not that i don't care, as i said, i concern is spread across many people, not just one particular group.

Very noble of you. However, my interests tend to more parochial, and I only concern myself with issues that are of important to me. The world is too vast for me to wrap my mind around every atrocity that has ever been committed.
BTW, I did weep and pray for the Christian Timorese while they were being slaughtered over on your side of the world, just to assuage the religion of peace’s bloody god. I had friends that vanished in that holocaust as well.

You ask what my answer would be to the question "what are we to do with the Jews?". My answer would indeed be, nothing! Would i be a passive witness to another holocaust? No, but as a Christian with a gentile heritage i certainly don't feel a responsibility or loyalty towards Jews.
Yet. you are offended because the catholic church has promoted a bishop who is not so politically correct, I'm just saying that it would be unreasonable to expect other religious institutions to take Jewish feelings into consideration. Just as you probably wouldn't blink to come across a rabbi who hated catholics. I just see other religions as separate entities.

Again, very noble of you. However, while I know Rabbi’s and other Jews who dislike Catholics, I know of no Rabbi who has sponsored or called for the extermination of Catholics. I don’t care if every single Catholic is a holocaust denying, Jew hating bigot who regards all of my people as Christ Killers. In fact, it reinforces my view that the church is no friend of the Jews, and Jews rightfully reject its message.
I think that Martin Luther typifies most Christians as well. Once again, a Jew would do well to avoid Catholics and Protestants who approach them with their “good news”. Who wants to be part of a clique that despises them.

Jews hate Muslims and Muslims hate Jews, it's a vicious circle and both groups are responsible.

Yeah. A pox on both their houses, right? There is only one question here that I am dying for you to answer, Melanie: Do the Jews have the inherent right to live in Israel in peace and safety?

The English persecuted my ancestors and ravaged their lands for centuries before dumping some of my forebears half way around the world but i don't think the English owe me anything. I understand why you feel so passionate about these issues but no amount of passion can change the past, all you can do is influence the future and bitterness begets more bitterness.

Yeah. I guess you are right. It was only my parents who were killed by Jew hating Catholics. I really should be more forgiving.

~ Rusty

 

[rusty_armor]

I've got to restate that Luther lacked temperance. He hated everyone else, Catholics, Muslims, even other protestant groups. Jews don't even make the top three of the groups he hated, Pope and Turk filled the first two, the pre-Anabaptists (my people) probably filled the third considering the mass slaughter of the peasant revolts.

It makes me feel better to know that I wasn't even Luthers third pick.

 

[Melanie]

Do the Jews have a right to live in Israel in peace and safety?
Yes, but the Muslims should have the same rights too. This isn't the place to get into middle eastern politics but Israel is not entirely innocent on that score and i think anyone who sincerely researches the topic should concede that.

You don't want to hear the church because they hate Jews? Thats fine but what about the message that is not from the church? The early christian writings can speak for themselves independent of any church. Church persecution is not an excuse for rejecting Christ.

Obviously you're passionate about this because it effects you personally, as you said yourself you only care about things that are important to you. Yet you are offended when others express a lack of concern for the Jews. Do you not see the double standard here? Not being overly empathetic about the Jewish plight does not make someone anti-semitic, it simply makes them a non Jew who is concerned with her own people...just as you are concerned with yours.

 

[rusty_armor]

Do the Jews have a right to live in Israel in peace and safety?
Yes, but the Muslims should have the same rights too. This isn't the place to get into middle eastern politics but Israel is not entirely innocent on that score and i think anyone who sincerely researches the topic should concede that.

So precisely what same rights do you wish the Muslims to have that they don’t? And to what sincere research of the topic would make you believe that I should concede your point? Give me your sincere and Muslim fair justification for the relentless rocket attacks on innocents inside the borders of Israel as a for instance.
As for bringing up the issue of middle eastern politics, it was in response to your earlier quote “Jews hate Muslims and Muslims hate Jews, it's a vicious circle and both groups are responsible. “ Would you show me in any Jewish holy writ where it calls for the Jews to exterminate all the Muslims. Just one reference is all that you need to produce.
However, in the Quran it speaks verses like: "And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'O Muslim, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!" Muslims have been the enemy of Jews from day one, and have persecuted them from the 3rd Century to this very day.

You don't want to hear the church because they hate Jews? Thats fine but what about the message that is not from the church? The early christian writings can speak for themselves independent of any church. Church persecution is not an excuse for rejecting Christ.

Church persecution may well be an excuse for G-d to reject the church however. But who said I reject Christ? I just am not real fond of his kids. And I am growing less fond of the common Greek name as each day passes.

Obviously you're passionate about this because it effects you personally, as you said yourself you only care about things that are important to you. Yet you are offended when others express a lack of concern for the Jews. Do you not see the double standard here? Not being overly empathetic about the Jewish plight does not make someone anti-semitic, it simply makes them a non Jew who is concerned with her own people...just as you are concerned with yours.

Great. Well, then, laud your Jew hating Bishop and sing praises to Luthers good side. And think about that real hard the next time a Jew politely takes your broadside, and tosses it into the trash as goyishe nonsense. You might also remember that the Messiah is not going to come until they say in Jerusalem “Baruch haba b’shem Adonai” Blessed be he who comes in the name of the LORD.
But then you may be another preterist since I didn't ask, in which case feel free to dismiss that reminder as well.
[/quote]

 

[Melanie]

For the record, i am not a preterist. I'm not lauding anyone nor singing their praises, you're being overly dramatic and bordering on petulant.

Secondly, Muslims didn't exist until the 7th century so i don't know how you can claim they were persecuting your people way back in the third.

Unless Israel is passively resisting Arab aggression then they can't be playing the blame game regarding rocket attacks because Israel are hurling them across the border too. It is a basic human right to live in peace and safety...regardless of religion or race. It is not for us to decide who deserves to live and die nor WHERE they should live and die. The Koran also instructs Muslims to treat Jews as brothers. It's contradictory when it comes to dealing with Jews but it is not completely negative all the way through. Perhaps if Israel would stop trying to grind Palestinians into dust...give them some dignity...it might be possible to negotiate a real peace with them. Israel can't continue to occupy all the recourses of the land and leave the scraps to the Palestinians and expect them to grateful.

If my use of the word Christ or Christian offends you ..tough! It is correct for my language and culture. Do you think Jews haven't committed their fair share of persecutions? They made life pretty difficult for the early Christians and possible the early Muslims too.

Obviously this is going to go nowhere since the mere mention of anything negative about Jews has you completely dismissing anything else a person may have to say.

 

[rusty_armor]

Obviously this is going to go nowhere since the mere mention of anything negative about Jews has you completely dismissing anything else a person may have to say.

You said one thing that I don’t take issue with, Melanie. Yes. I do question the motives behind anyone who speaks poorly of Jews. I am acutely aware of both Jews and Israel’s shortcomings, and I know a reasoned argument against us from one that isn’t so well reasoned. There are key words I listen for, and for the most part, you hit them right on cue. From the first breath you started in with the why should you or Christian’s even care about the Jews. And why should Jews care about the occasional bigot in high places. Those who are truly indifferent wouldn't have even asked these questions. And those who have done any honest research would have had quite different questions they would have liked answered.

But you knew what I believe, and you knew what you believe before you even jumped into the conversation, didn’t you!

I believe that Hitler spoke evilly of the Jews, and Jews died. I believe that Luther spoke evilly of the Jews, and Jews died. I believe that Father Wagner spoke evilly of the Jews, and it was only because of the indignation of people like me that the Vatican rushed in to rebuke him. He is only one small voice in the vast world of Jew haters. Yeah, deny that the holocaust happened or make light of it and I become a humorless boor. So sue me.

There is a small group of Jews who has on their last breath, "Never Again". We damned sure can't count on you when the next wave of Jew killing starts in the world because you will just shrug your shoulders and say "Yahbut". The Jews done wrong too. You say you would speak out in another holocaust. I doubt it. And what troubles me most, is that your views are very common today. And from what I am reading in the news columns today, I don't think that we can depend on the Main Stream churches to speak out either.

So you are also correct in saying this conversation is going nowhere.

~ Rusty

 

[Melanie]

It's going nowhere because you continue to attribute a point of view to me that is not evident in anything i have written. :roll: It doesn't matter what i post because you're just reading from your own script.

 

[Paul not the apostle]

I just want to clarify this about myself....

"If you want me in your fellowships, then yeah, I want to see you bleed for the injustices Christians committed on my people."

I enjoy your fellowship and knowledge on this board, but I don't want to bleed for anyone elses actions. Or mine, for that matter. Call me crazy, but I think that Jesus Christ takes care of my injust actions for me through His death on the cross. I am not a believer so that He will pay for my debt, but because I believe in Him, my debts are forgiven. I serve Him because He is worthy and He demands my obedience, not just so I will get into Heaven.


"I think that Martin Luther typifies most Christians as well."

I don't understand the basis for this statement. I don't see the "most" christians using the same verbage and foul language, etc. or nailing stuff on churches, or causing the contoversy he did for the sake of controversy, or even hating Jews or even talking about "them" really. There is no "them". Just "us". God's children. We are all receivers of His grace and fully qualified to receive His salvation.

 

[rusty_armor]

Re: I just want to clarify this about myself....

"If you want me in your fellowships, then yeah, I want to see you bleed for the injustices Christians committed on my people."

I enjoy your fellowship and knowledge on this board, but I don't want to bleed for anyone elses actions. Or mine, for that matter. Call me crazy, but I think that Jesus Christ takes care of my injust actions for me through His death on the cross. I am not a believer so that He will pay for my debt, but because I believe in Him, my debts are forgiven. I serve Him because He is worthy and He demands my obedience, not just so I will get into Heaven.

It is tough wearing three hats in this room.

*Rusty the believer in a risen Lord who can wash the vilest sins away just wants to just get on with his brothers and sisters.
*Rusty the Jewish zealot who wants to keep in view the worlds the worlds sins against his family and his people by people who should have known better.
*Rusty the husband of two wives who blindly stumbles around his small universe seeking a way to reconcile his family's lifestyle with his fellow man.

In switching hats sometimes one or the other aspect gets shoved aside.

"I think that Martin Luther typifies most Christians as well."

I don't understand the basis for this statement. I don't see the "most" christians using the same verbage and foul language, etc. or nailing stuff on churches, or causing the contoversy he did for the sake of controversy, or even hating Jews or even talking about "them" really. There is no "them". Just "us". God's children. We are all receivers of His grace and fully qualified to receive His salvation.

Yeah. Except I have been around Christians when they didn't know they had a Jew in their midst, and I have been around them when they knew there was one. The language and curses are more refined and genteel than Luther's was, but the same bias was there.
While I am most acutely aware of my peoples shortcomings, I have not heard that same sort of bias in the synagogues. Jewish bias is quite direct. There are Jews, and there are all the rest. Rarely have I heard a gentile actually cursed though.