Missing Christmas

[PeteR]

The Saturnalia link especially was essentially made up.

Interesting, considering an old copy of Britannica I had specifically listed Saturnalia as starting 500 years before Messiah and being the root of Christmas...

For me, Sukkot was when Messiah was born. After 10 years with the feasts, i'm heartbroken when I can't do them. To me, christmas is a big 'meh...'...

I do understand 'missing it' as the recent c19 stupidjust makes us want to get back to 'normal'.... but,'normal', for me, was going to Israel twice per year. I DO miss that! I miss the Land, the people, the shwarma... I miss strolling in the Cardo, walking the hot dry streets, the cool of a sukkah. I miss seeing friends from around the world who are family. I miss worship with James Block (look him up on YouTube.) I miss the crowded wall up to the Temple Mount, the vendors, the bicycles, the Orthodox on bicycles with tzitziot flying...

Yeah... Sukkot.the time of His birth...

 

[cnystrom]

I always thought it strange that some claim because of pagan origins we should not celebrate something. Revelation 21 talks about all things being made new, and I have no problem with an ex-pagan thing being made into a Christian thing. So even if that argument is true, I do not find in persuasive.

I do not think Jeremiah 10 is talking about Christmas trees, or even if it applies to us gentile Christians.

In any case holidays and holy days seems like one of those disputable matters that we are no supposed to contend about as in Romans 14. Each one should be convinced in their own mind.

 

[cnystrom]

But I think we get too up in arms about parties celebrating Jesus sometimes.

Kind of reminds me of my Christian college who would allow seculars bands, but not Christian rock bands because Jesus didn't rock or something. I don't know. It was a stupid policy that they ended up changing after I left.

We are always supposed to be celebrating Jesus. That is what we do. That is why we exist. If we didn't do it, the stones would do it. But not the Rolling Stones. I don't think.

 

[SonoLumen]

Revelation 21 talks about all things being made new

All things will be brought into subjection to Him. All things were created through Him.

-

Make it even a step more basic than idols/paganism. We have trees, people, and beautiful adornment. Laying out in nature beneath the evergreens, seeing the sparkling stars through the branches as a cool wind blows in the night. This 'feeling' of 'awe' from being under trees and stars and lights and having color adorned over those deep green and dark hues has to be something that makes most people feel something grand. If YHVH showed up, that awe for creations beauty would be meaningless.

So then, isn't the issue in Jeremiah 10 "Worship the creation, rather the creator."?

Someone that marvels at such and gives glory to YHVH isn't being a pagan or idolizer at all.

Someone that institutes it as a required and regular holiday to celebrate Jesus - that person has probably put a stumbling block in front of some people.

Someone that gets up in arms at someone that celebrates YHVH differently, especially those that try to honor the biblical holidays, that strikes me as having an idol and possibly thinking monogamously about YHVH. If He is gonna accept me and my beautiful trees, I dang sure better not get in his way of accepting His others and their Sukkots - and this attitude is what allows diversity to grow into something more. We want to let them celebrate, without letting them usurp the Torah with tradition.

Now, imo I am the the person in my entire extended circle that cares this much about Hebrew and Israel so I'm an outlier. Everyone knows I take the old testament very seriously. I'm am compelled to participate in their christmas celebrations through the law of love - this is how I see it - I show up, and I participate, and I attempt to add joy and truth to all their lives, but they all know that I think christmas is cultural and not biblical, and to me that is enough of a witness. I'm not going to get in their way of celebrating 'Jesus', but I am going to spend a ton of time talking about whatever I've been learning from scripture. In my opinion, this strategy has been effective at engendering additional respect for the original Scriptures and thus is in the spirit of "Go, and make disciples.".

Slowly but surely, the scriptures subdue the culture as they are written in time, unchanging forever, and accurate to the original source - with a Living God reigning in Authority and the ability to enforce them, eventually. Totally original from ALL cultures in that respect - which ultimately die or become something different. Cultures change, the scriptures do not.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Kind of reminds me of my Christian college who would allow seculars bands, but not Christian rock bands because Jesus didn't rock or something. I don't know. It was a stupid policy that they ended up changing after I left.

We are always supposed to be celebrating Jesus. That is what we do. That is why we exist. If we didn't do it, the stones would do it. But not the Rolling Stones. I don't think.

I am reminded that I was pagan at birth, from a pagan society that worshipped trees and occasionally sacrificed people.

 

[Bartato]

I am reminded that I was pagan at birth, from a pagan society that worshipped trees and occasionally sacrificed people.

Since Roe v Wade, the human sacrifice has been a pretty frequent occurrence. (Probably was before Roe v Wade too)

 

[fadi]

I’m kindly asking the moderators to remove my comments and contributions on this thread and everything I have ever posted on this forum. I’m very uncomfortable with the subliminal indirect “mockery” and “undermining” of my own convictions and beliefs as to why my husband and I do not put up a Christmas tree in our house. I have suffered enough persecution in my personal life from Christians, especially being mocked about my beliefs on Christmas trees. I joined this forum believing it was a somehow tolerant place especially about pagan holidays given the stance on polygamy, but the indirect comments from people who are clearly trying to show that they know more than you and are more enlightened and goes on to scoff, as it looks from my side of the fence, I know now is I should not be contributing some things here, given how indirect and how overpowering some comments can be, addressing your comments without even mentioning you. Not only disrespectful but pure mockery, and unkind which ironically is very anti Christian.

This will be my last post on this forum.

God bless you all.

 

[FollowingHim]

I’m kindly asking the moderators to remove my comments and contributions on this thread and everything I have ever posted on this forum. I’m very uncomfortable with the subliminal indirect “mockery” and “undermining” of my own convictions and beliefs as to why my husband and I do not put up a Christmas tree in our house. I have suffered enough persecution in my personal life from Christians, especially being mocked about my beliefs on Christmas trees. I joined this forum believing it was a somehow tolerant place especially about pagan holidays given the stance on polygamy, but the indirect comments from people who are clearly trying to show that they know more than you and are more enlightened and goes on to scoff, as it looks from my side of the fence, I know now is I should not be contributing some things here, given how indirect and how overpowering some comments can be, addressing your comments without even mentioning you. Not only disrespectful but pure mockery, and unkind which ironically is very anti Christian.

This will be my last post on this forum.

God bless you all.

@fadi, I honestly cannot understand what you are taking offence at. As far as I can see, the majority of commenters on this thread agree with you and have no Christmas trees - 7 no trees, 4 possibly have trees, by my rough inference from what people have said and what I know of them. And I can see no mockery of you or your position in the posts of the minority who appear to disagree with you on this matter. This is an extremely tolerant forum, and the fact that divergent viewpoints are expressed relatively calmly in this thread is a perfect illustration of that.

As you have noted yourself, this issue tends to be very emotive in general Christian society, and people do judge and insult each other over it. That is very true and sad. But it is not happening on this forum. Here there is still disagreement, but within the framework of tolerance and brotherhood - we're not shouting "heretic" and splitting up over such disagreements, we're just expressing our different perspectives as brothers and sisters in Christ.

If you have a problem with a specific comment that I have missed, please click the "report" button below that post and explain what the issue is with it. If you have been hassled in private and are reacting to that rather than to this thread, please feel free to forward those communications to me.

 

[JimC]

I agree with @MaryandJim that the tree is a problematic symbol that appears to line up far too closely to prophecy for comfort (I accept that prophecy may be talking about carving idols, but the way it is described does apply very well to Christmas trees too). And all my life we have rejected dyslexic Satan Santa as an unChristian distraction / substitute Christ. And some carols are pagan (deck the halls) or just pointless (jingle bells).

I find that many, many people do worship the tree and all the trimmings as an idol with the amount of money they put into the decorations, meal and gifts that enslave them to the debt beast. "What is the difference"; is the question we must ask ourselves.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I’m kindly asking the moderators to remove my comments and contributions on this thread and everything I have ever posted on this forum. I’m very uncomfortable with the subliminal indirect “mockery” and “undermining” of my own convictions and beliefs as to why my husband and I do not put up a Christmas tree in our house. I have suffered enough persecution in my personal life from Christians, especially being mocked about my beliefs on Christmas trees. I joined this forum believing it was a somehow tolerant place especially about pagan holidays given the stance on polygamy, but the indirect comments from people who are clearly trying to show that they know more than you and are more enlightened and goes on to scoff, as it looks from my side of the fence, I know now is I should not be contributing some things here, given how indirect and how overpowering some comments can be, addressing your comments without even mentioning you. Not only disrespectful but pure mockery, and unkind which ironically is very anti Christian.

This will be my last post on this forum.

God bless you all.

I apologize if I came across as intolerant. It think the break with Christmas trees is probably a safe choice. I don’t have one in my house either. There is a real need to break with the traditions of the corporate church.

 

[MeganC]

I stand by my comments on this topic and was honest about my feelings.

 

[Bartato]

I’m kindly asking the moderators to remove my comments and contributions on this thread and everything I have ever posted on this forum. I’m very uncomfortable with the subliminal indirect “mockery” and “undermining” of my own convictions and beliefs as to why my husband and I do not put up a Christmas tree in our house. I have suffered enough persecution in my personal life from Christians, especially being mocked about my beliefs on Christmas trees. I joined this forum believing it was a somehow tolerant place especially about pagan holidays given the stance on polygamy, but the indirect comments from people who are clearly trying to show that they know more than you and are more enlightened and goes on to scoff, as it looks from my side of the fence, I know now is I should not be contributing some things here, given how indirect and how overpowering some comments can be, addressing your comments without even mentioning you. Not only disrespectful but pure mockery, and unkind which ironically is very anti Christian.

This will be my last post on this forum.

God bless you all.

Ironically, you all have me kinda thinking that we should probably quit having a Christmas tree (which we have always had).

Poinsettia are ok though right? I've always been a big poinsettia fan.

 

[MeganC]

Our tree is going up the first day of Advent and this year that's on Sunday, November 28th!

I can't wait!

 

[cnystrom]

I think I may be in the minority pro-Christmas tree group. But I do respect the opinions of others, and I can certainly see where you might get no Christmas trees from that verse, but that it is not what I get from it.

I do agree that if your conscience tells you no Christmas trees, then by all means cast them out. You will get no argument from me on that.

In no sense was anything that I wrote here intended to be mocking and wish only the best for you and your family.

 

[DontheBeeMan]

Christmas is rooted in Paganism this started in europe before the arrivel of christ had different names yule birth of sun God mithra winter solstice it was the romen Catholic church trying to keep believers in the church and fill the coffers that incorperated the birth of christ while preserving pagan rituals it was to pascify ristance to rome rule Jer 10:2-4 thus saith the Lord learn not the way of the heathen Nor are we Christians to mix Gods Name with unholy things of the world evergreen trees to keep witches ghosts and evil spirts and illness in fact is was the 16th centry that trees became a major part of Christmas celebration we as children believed the lies Christmas but as we get older we find no evidence of it being a celebration

 

[FollowingHim2]

Thanks everyone for your responses.
Samuel and I have talked through it and come up with some ideas to help. Obviously not doing a tree or anything, but we will do something small for the children, and definitely talk through Jesus' birth.
It's been too hard for me to comment on this thread before now because it's highly emotional for me, and I know that some of my responses would have been unkind or too emotional. Sometimes I need to just step back and let hubby take over for a while, while I deal with stuff .
And this is still a huge part of it,

It's much worse this year, which I'm assuming is because things are so out of whack right now that my subconscious is trying to grasp hold of some normality and joy from my childhood.

It's crazy over here right now.

 

[MeganC]

Christmas is rooted in Paganism this started in europe before the arrivel of christ had different names yule birth of sun God mithra winter solstice it was the romen Catholic church trying to keep believers in the church and fill the coffers that incorperated the birth of christ while preserving pagan rituals it was to pascify ristance to rome rule Jer 10:2-4 thus saith the Lord learn not the way of the heathen Nor are we Christians to mix Gods Name with unholy things of the world evergreen trees to keep witches ghosts and evil spirts and illness in fact is was the 16th centry that trees became a major part of Christmas celebration we as children believed the lies Christmas but as we get older we find no evidence of it being a celebration

Numbering the Chapter and Verse of the books of the Bible is a pagan (Roman) practice and in citing those numbers you are participating in the practice.

But is it a bad idea? It's actually very helpful when you're trying to find something in the Bible.

Likewise, if a song or a tree adds to the Glory of God and the Love of His Son Jesus then is it a bad thing?

 

[Paulsen]

I think it would be helpful if people define their terms in this discussion. It seems people are using different meanings for the word pagan. Some people mean "anything that didn't originate from biblical instructions for worship" ie @MeganC your thoughts on using chapters and verses in the Bible. It seems other people are using the word pagan or pagan practices to mean "practices of worship for false idols"

Many of us use ideas, inventions, words...that come from Pagans and pagan cultures. Following pagan ideas, practices or rituals for worship is a starkly different matter than using chapters and verses added by Pagans for helping with reference and organization.

When I reviewed this subject I found the evidence and sources convincing that much of the Christmas "celebration" came from the practices of worshiping idols or participating in pagan spiritual rituals. The yule log, the mistletoe and the Christmas tree all seemed to have their roots in it. The catholic church and rome appear to have headed up the blending of the various practices and formalizing the day (instead of simply following the solstice). Thankfully @PeteR gave us an actual source in his post. If anyone wants me to I can go find some of the sources I originally found (I don't have them on hand since I haven't studied the issue for 2 years now) @The Revolting Man could you post some of your sources since you are making some of the strongest claims?

 

[The Revolting Man]

I think it would be helpful if people define their terms in this discussion. It seems people are using different meanings for the word pagan. Some people mean "anything that didn't originate from biblical instructions for worship" ie @MeganC your thoughts on using chapters and verses in the Bible. It seems other people are using the word pagan or pagan practices to mean "practices of worship for false idols"

Many of us use ideas, inventions, words...that come from Pagans and pagan cultures. Following pagan ideas, practices or rituals for worship is a starkly different matter than using chapters and verses added by Pagans for helping with reference and organization.

When I reviewed this subject I found the evidence and sources convincing that much of the Christmas "celebration" came from the practices of worshiping idols or participating in pagan spiritual rituals. The yule log, the mistletoe and the Christmas tree all seemed to have their roots in it. The catholic church and rome appear to have headed up the blending of the various practices and formalizing the day (instead of simply following the solstice). Thankfully @PeteR gave us an actual source in his post. If anyone wants me to I can go find some of the sources I originally found (I don't have them on hand since I haven't studied the issue for 2 years now) @The Revolting Man could you post some of your sources since you are making some of the strongest claims?

Here’s the thing, there are no sources. No shows where it happens. LOTS of people claim it did. They just never show when or where.

 

[Communication]

I heard somewhere that before Noah's time there was the first two men practicing homosexuality and they painted rainbows all over their men-cave, like modern day wallpaper. The struggle is to know what the true meaning of rainbows is.