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Nice guy versus Jerk?

I can tell you that back when my life was revolving around pleasing @Mrs. Pacman I would definitely have been labeled as a "nice guy" and she had very little respect for me and also very little attraction.

Six and a half years ago I made some major changes to our family and became more loving but less "nice" the respect and attraction has increased exponentially...
This is interesting. My first wife had no desire for me and veered wildly from very nice guy to extreme jerk. I think there’s something to this but there is a point of diminishing returns I think. I worry about this conversation straying in to a conversation about gamesmanship though.
 
So the question becomes, do women get bored of nice guys and excited by jerks?

If that's the question I have to answer "Yeah, more or less" given how I view niceness and jerkiness.

Would be helpful to specifically define both terms...

Right. I don't like being described as nice because the word has connotations in my own mind to: Acquiescing, sweet, someone not to take seriously because they are just there to be a resource.

As for jerk: the word means to me exactly what I listed above: Rude and Cruel. Also petty.

but there is a point of diminishing returns I think.

Ah! That is exactly what I think!
 
I tease and prank my family every chance I get, yet I still think of myself as a nice guy.
Maybe I actually am a jerk by some definitions.


Maybe that’s my secret. :p
I really should find out.
 
So the trick question hidden in this debate is that it’s completely false to begin with. We’re sanctioning a woman basing her actions on someone else’s actions and tacitly admitting we base our behavior at least in part in what pleases our wives. If women like the jerk it’s because he’s closer to the ideal of a man who does what he wants for the reasons he wants. That kind of clear headed self confidence and moral clarity is not natural though (at least not often) so jerkiness gets substituted in.

I will reference my time in the Marines. It was drilled in to our heads once we achieved a modicum of leadership that the purpose of Marines Corps leadership is mission accomplishment and troop welfare. You can’t sacrifice the mission for the troops but you can’t accomplish the mission without the troops. There is a tension between the two that must always be reconciled on the side of the mission but can never quit pursuing the welfare of the troops. A leader who cares nothing for his troops will have undisciplined, poorly trained warfighters with bad morale that he leaves on a battlefield he probably lost . You can’t actually claim to care about the mission if you don’t look to the welfare of your troops but the mission requires you force them into hard places they don’t want to be.

The lesson for us as husbands is that we can’t make our mission troop welfare. Our troops (families) instinctively know that it is against their welfare to have their welfare be the mission. Undisciplined children demonstrate this perfectly, they will act out until they run up against some kind of barrier. They understand that being coddled is unloving. Our wives are no different. They know that if they are your mission that you are not actually preparing and equipping them. They instinctively know that you’re a bad husband. Many women would prefer the safety of a jerk, real or not, than the uncertainty of a man who is so directionless as to need her to provide him a reason or worse yet permission.
 
Nice = pleasant; agreeable;
Jerk = an unlikable person especially : one who is cruel, rude, or small-minded

The Truth is not always pleasant or agreeable, but it is also not cruel, rude, or small minded.

Agreeable men are rightly seen as weak men and therefor unattractive. They are unable to do the hard things they must because it causes feelbads.

Unfortunately I don't have hard and fast definitions; more a set of behaviors and archetypes in mind. I'll see what I can come up with...

I generally break this up as follows:
niceness vs. kindness
jerk vs. asshole

Kind and jerk are good, nice and asshole not.

If you're going to be a good leader in your marriage, you're going to have to do things she doesn't like, things that would make her call you/think some synonym for jerk.

Maybe there is a better word than jerk. But it is one commonly used by women when a man does something desirable, yet negative.

But women tend to not be able to distinguish between nice and kind or men between jerk and asshole.

Niceness is comforting. It seeks to avoid offense. It hates causing feelbads. It puffs up. It panders. Agreeable. But it doesn't generate arousal; it tamps it down. It is boring. Dull. Safe. The nice guy is unable to do the difficult loving things because they cause feelbads. He is mentally weak. The niceness in men causes them to worship women, compromise scripture to avoid women's feelbads, changing even the Gospel itself, and generally allow women to run all over them. Bad women routinely take advantage of these men. Good women will appreciate them, but have a hard time respecting or getting aroused by them.

The kind man is able to show kindness when appropriate but has a hardness to him and isn't afraid of women's feelings and is able to do the tough love things that must be done. The Jerk isn't afraid to do things that cause women displeasure. Setting limits, telling her 'no', making hard decisions she doesn't like, dominant flirting. Things that must be done, which would generate arousal, but which will get him called a jerk. He has an edge to him but can be pleasant and polite as called for. But he's the opposite of agreeable. The man who is dangerous yet attractive and makes you feel safe. He inspires reverence.

The asshole is mean, cruel, absent kindness.

Jerk with a hidden heart of gold is what women often crave; that magical combination. May even be a love/hate relationship. She'll despise the nice guy and for the asshole there is only hate. There may be appreciate for the nice guy, but no arousal. She may not like the jerk at times, but he is highly desirable and she loves him to pieces. There isn't anything desirable about the asshole.

To use an agricultural metaphor....the asshole keeps his chickens in cruel conditions before slaughter. The kind jerk keeps them in good humane (but economical) conditions, and then eats them. The nice guy pampers his chickens (often to their detriment) and can't bring himself to eat them.

It's a patriarchy meme, because the intent it to point out to nice guys how unnattractive they are and how their niceness leads to their inability to lead their wife or have a satisfying marriage.

Niceness is unnatractive.

That got long, but I was essaying out as I tried to figure out how to distill the differences.
 
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The Nice Jerk Matrix

thenicejerkmatrix.png

I came up with that as I was thinking about how to differentiate between these concepts.

There is something similar to this related in marriage that comes up in counseling and dating. Women saying they want a man who can share his feelings. But women don't want an emotional man so when men share their feelings they often find it causes them to loose attraction and respect.

74062b65c7cde62b.jpeg

That's a jerk.
 
That's a great picture @rockfox.

I think this is simply an argument about words. People are closer to agreement on what they actually mean. But only @rockfox is using the word "jerk" to refer to positive behaviour. Everyone else is sticking to a dictionary definition:

Merriam-Webster:
1a: an annoyingly stupid or foolish person ("was acting like a jerk")
b: an unlikable person. Especially : one who is cruel, rude, or small-minded
thefreedictionary.com:
A foolish, rude, or contemptible person.

In other words, everyone else reads "jerk" to mean what @rockfox uses the word "a**hole" to describe.

Replace the word "jerk" with something else and everyone would probably agree.
 
Replace the word "jerk" with something else and everyone would probably agree.

Suggestion? I used it cause it's what I see hear women using.

Whatever word is used will have some level of negative connotation. It's an insult directed at a man doing something negative she didn't like even though she consciously/subconsciously is glad he did.
 
Suggestion? I used it cause it's what I see hear women using.

Whatever word is used will have some level of negative connotation. It's an insult directed at a man doing something negative she didn't like even though she consciously/subconsciously is glad he did.
I liked the word "Dominating". Whatever happened to that word?
 
Authoritative? That's the first that came to my mind.
I don't know. I always connected "Authoritative", with being an expert on a topic, which I know a lot of women DO find attractive, yet not where this thread was going.
 
I would never call my husband a jerk because my definition is closely related to what @FollowingHim stated.
A jerk, to me is an unsafe, selfish, foolish, donkey butt of a man, SO unattractive, SO not my husband! To me jerks have no thought or care for the people in their lives and would use and throw away the relationship when the person is of no use to them. Jesus isn’t a jerk. He asked hard things of the people who wanted to be part of His ‘clan’. Heck, He even told a rich man, give everything you have away, ( then come follow me, Matt. 19). He asks of His people to do the hard things. That’s Leadership, authority, being a ruler. Molding one into His own image for the purpose of His Master. What @The Revolting Man said is just leadership with authority, in my opinion..
To some people authority, being ruled or being under submission, is an absolute ‘NO’ because of the jerks that have used there position wrongly/selfishly. I know this is all a play on words and everyone has their own definitions and mindsets. I would say a ‘nice bad boy’ would get the seductive lip biting meme. :rolleyes:
Gotta help a kid with Algebra so, that’s my 2cents for now...;)
 
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