Yes, he is. Very little commitment in that one flesh arrangement.
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Meat One flesh is “marriage” and here’s why.
- Thread starter The Revolting Man
- Start date
I find it interesting that you only quote v6 and yet YaHshua starts in v4.
Matthew 19:4-6 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
So we know YaHshua is quoting…
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
We also know YaHshua knows there is more than v24 in Genesis because of Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, .
quoting, Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
So here we know YaHWeH “made he a woman,” AND YaHWeH “brought her unto the man.”
Adam recognized that the woman that YaHWeH (the woman's Father if you will) gave her to him to be his help meet.
Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
So Adam takes what YaHWeH (the woman’s Father if you will) made so he can cleave “unto his wife,”
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
You see YaHWeH set a GREAT!! example for us.
My woman and I make some offspring, in this case a daughter, we raise her, and just like YaHWeH I see a young man who is in need of a help meet eyeballing my daughter, next he comes to me and asks me for my daughter, I agree, and like YaHWeH in v22 “and brought her unto the man.” he takes her v23 and then v24 happens.
There is a pattern that makes one flesh a marriage, man wants woman said woman wants the man, father gives the woman to the man, and man takes woman to bed and cleaves unto her.
But any thing out side of that pattern is just, one flesh, not marriage. I Corinthians 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
We also know that a harlot was common in the Bible.
Leviticus 21:14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.
Joshua 2:1 And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there.
Judges 16:1 Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her.
Proverbs 7:10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.
So we can see they were very common.
Sirach makes a distinction, one is married and one is NOT.
Sirach 26:22 An harlot shall be accounted as spittle; but a married woman is a tower against death to her husband.
I Corinthians 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
Yes I am aware in extreme cases we have a wife playing a harlot…
Amos 7:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Thy wife shall be an harlot in the city, and thy sons and thy daughters shall fall by the sword, and thy land shall be divided by line; and thou shalt die in a polluted land: and Israel shall surely go into captivity forth of his land.
So when one fallows the Biblical example of MARRIAGE they become ONE FLESH.
And
If a man who is married or NOT married has sex with an harlot they become one flesh with her, it does NOT mean they are married it just means they are one flesh.
I Corinthians 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
I hope this helps. Romans 3:4 ...let God be true, but every man a liar;...
And most importantly may we ALL…
II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Thankyou. The core is very simple.
"One flesh" is either sex, or formed by sex, or something slightly differently worded that also comes back to sex. It's about sex.
Covenants also exist - we make agreements (verbal, written, and just generally understood). And people obviously make covenants to marry - a man and a woman make a conscious decision to marry. Sometimes money changes hands in a formal agreement. Sometimes there are vows. All sorts of covenants / agreements exist.
I think that the main people who are soundly engaging with the conversation, regardless of their perspective in the debate (meaning both @NickF and yourself for instance), all basically agree with the above two points. We know that one-flesh exists (and is formed by sex), and covenants exist.
The debate is really around whether we apply the label "marriage" to the one-flesh union, or one-flesh+covenant, or the covenant alone, or either individually.
I am engaging less with this debate because I increasingly see it as an argument around words, while we are specifically instructed to "strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers." (2 Tim 2:14). I used to care about this issue a lot more. But these days I really don't think it matters which aspect we label "marriage".
What matters is simply that we honour the one-flesh union God creates - and that we honour whatever covenants we create. I don't really care how they are labelled.
Is a one-flesh union inherently moral or immoral? Or can it be both based on circumstances?
Oh Edward, I love you brother but what the hell was that discombobulated mish mash? Did I detect a huge dollop of Creation Ideal in there? I think I did. I love me some Creation Ideal. It means only nudists can be married and don’t nudists deserve love? The rest of us have hogged it for too long.
Your big problem though is that you skipped the part where divorce ends the one flesh. You skipped the part where every verse you quoted used the phrase the one flesh.
Your examples of exceptions were never about “marriage” except for the one concerning the Levites. All sorts of Laws apply differently to the Levites but even so that passage says nothing about how a Levite forms a marriage with that virgin.
Here’s part of the problem with this debate. Almost no one is going back and reading what’s gone before. Almost no one is willing to challenge their Greco-Roman assumption that “marriage” must have a procession and a pagan rite attached to it. Almost no one is willing to go back to square one and start over.
If we keep our pagan assumptions, if we cling to our traditions, we will never break through. The very fact that we can’t agree to use the phrase God used throughout scripture but have to keep falling back in silly euphemisms should tell everyone that we have a problem.
Interesting question. I’m not sure. I want to say it’s inherently moral but the harlot does raise questions doesn’t she?
That's my thought, given the context of 1 Cor 6, where right after warning not to unite the member of Christ to a harlot the command is to flee sexual immorality.
If sex = one flesh, and one flesh = marriage, and marriage is honorable in all... then we have a problem with sex with a harlot being sexually immoral behavior wouldn't we?
I think The Man has to Take her as His Wife/Woman and His alone. To say before G-d She is Mine.
Look at Marriage: Man Takes or is Given a Wife.
You're just ignoring what the verse actually says, and replacing it with "I think this different thing". It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is what is written.
First, I think this is a really good post.
I think once a man has sex with (This Woman) it creates a (Type of Marriage) even if its any on the list below.
I also believe once this happens she is seen as a (Type of Wife) as in a Concubine and Sex is an active part of this change.
I have a Concubine and that is because she does not fit under The Heading of Wife, but she falls under Concubine.
My Wife/Wives could have a Handmaiden and I might or might not be able to have sex with her.
I don't believe there could be a 1 year term once they had sex.
Man does not need to ask any of His Wives to have another wife/wives
Wife: Be a helper to your husband (Covenant) Yes
Unmarried Raped Woman: “the man who raped her is to give the young woman's father fifty silver shekels, and she will become his wife"
(Covenant) Yes
Concubine: a wife or sexual partner of secondary status (Covenant) No
Bonds/Slave Woman: a woman held in forced servitude (Covenant) No
Handmaiden: a female servant who serves her mistress (Covenant) No
That is 110% wrong. Sorry, but that is simply not true.
Marriage is "Taking or Given a Wife/Woman" to "Dwell Together"
It seems very clear that Taking or Giving a Woman is having a Wife/Marriage.
Meanings of Marriage: I Posted this for people to be able to use in their understandings.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=marriage&t=KJV&ss=1#s=s_lexiconc
הָלַל hâlal, haw-lal'; a primitive root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence, to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively, to celebrate; also to stultify:—(make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool(-ish, -ly), glory, give (light), be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, (sing, be worthy of) praise, rage, renowned, shine.
H1984 הָלַל hālal praise, glory, boast, mad, shine, foolish, fools, commended, rage, celebrate, give, marriage, renowned
STRONGS H1984:Abbreviations
† I. [הָלַל] verb shine (according to Thes and others = II. הלל (splenduit, from sonuit acute, clare, so Thes; these meanings, however, merely assumed); but see LagOr. ii. 19 & below following; compare Arabic هَلَّ begin to shine, هِلَالً new moon; Assyrian êllu, bright COTGloss) —
Qal only Infinitive suffix בְּהִלּוֺ נֵרוֺ עֲלֵי ראֹשִׁי Job 29:3 when it, namely his lamp, shone upon my head (compare Ew§ 309 c), figurative of God's favour.
Hiph. Imperfect יָהֵל Job 31:26, 3rd person feminine singular תָּהֶל Job 41:10; 3rd person masculine plural יָהֵ֫לּוּ Isaiah 13:10; — flash forth light, of heavenly bodies,
חָתַן châthan, khaw-than'; a primitive root; to give (a daughter) away in marriage; hence (generally) to contract affinity by marriage:—join in affinity, father in law, make marriages, mother in law, son in law.
H2859 חָתַן ḥāṯan law, affinity, marriages
† חֹתֵן verbal noun.
1. masculine wife's father (Arabic خَاتِنً a circumciser, hence father-in-law, with reference to circumcision performed on young men just before marriage; خَتَنً relation on wife's side; see WeProl. 1886, 355 Anm, 1; Skizzen iii, 154 StaZAW 1886. 143 Aum. NöZMG 1886, 187; otherwise DlPr 91 LagBN 116) — construct חֹתֵן Exodus 18:1 + 9 times, חֹתֶנְךָ Exodus 18:6, חֹתְנוֺ Exodus 3:1 + 9 times; — usually of Moses' wife's father Exodus 3:1; Exodus 4:18; Exodus 18:1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 12 (twice in verse); Exodus 18:14; Exodus 18:15; Exodus 18:17; Exodus 18:24; Exodus 18:27 (all E), Numbers 10:29 (J), Judges 1:16; Judges 4:11; of a Levite Judges 19:4, 7, 9.
2. feminine wife's mother, only suffix חֹתַנְתּוֺ Deuteronomy 27:23.
† II. חתן verb denominative only
Hithp. make oneself a daughter's husband (Late Hebrew Hithp. id., Aramaic Ithpa. id.) — Perfect 2nd person masculine plural וְהִתְחַתַּנְתֶּם consecutive Joshua 23:12; Imperfect וַיִּתְחַתֵּן 1 Kings 3:1; 2 Chronicles 18:1; 2nd person masculine תִּתְחַתֵּן Deuteronomy 7:3; 1 Samuel 18:21; Imperative הִתְחַתֵּן 1 Samuel 18:22, הִתְחַתְּנוּ Genesis 34:9; Infinitive הִתְחַתֵּן 1 Samuel 18:23 + 3 times; —
1. make oneself daughter's husband (son-in-law) to, with בְּ 1 Samuel 18:21, 22, 23, 26, 27; with אֶת 1 Kings 3:1; Genesis 34:9 (P); with לְ 2 Chronicles 18:1, of marriage of Jehoshaphat's son and Ahab's daughter (compare 2 Kings 8:18 2 Chronicles 21:6).
2. in general form marriage-alliance with, with בְּ Deuteronomy 7:3; Joshua 23:12 (D), Ezra 9:14.
עוֹנָה ʻôwnâh, o-naw'; from an unused root apparently meaning to dwell together; (sexual) cohabitation:—duty of marriage.
H5772 עוֹנָה ʿônâ duty of marriage
† [עוֺנָה] Qr, [עֵינָה] Kt noun feminine only suffix Hosea 10:10: Qr plural עוֺנֹתָם Baer, singular עוֺנָתָם Ginsb; > עֵינֹתָם Kt; but read עֲוֺנֹתָם, see עָוֺן 1a.
† [עֹנָה] noun feminine cohabitation (Late Hebrew עוֺנָה time, also = Biblical Hebrew; possibly response or correspondence, commerce, from above √; or else euphemistic, specific time, SS (compare BaES 17, from √
); Thes from עון dwell); — suffix עֹנָתָהּ Exodus 21:10 (E) i.e. her marriage rights. — Hosea 10:10 see H5771 עָוֺן
†γαμίσκω gamískō, gam-is'-ko; from G1062; to espouse (a daughter to a husband):—give in marriage.
G1061 γαμίζω gamizō give in marriage
γαμίσκω, equivalent to γαμίζω, which see [Matthew 24:38 Lachmann]; Passive [present γαμίσκομαι]; Mark 12:25 R G; Luke 20:34 L T Tr WH, [Luke 20:35 WH marginal reading; cf. Winers Grammar, 92 (88); and Tdf.'s note on Matthew 22:30]. (Aristotle, pol. 7, 14, 4 etc.) [Compare: ἐκγαμίσκω.]
Related entry:
γαμίζω; [Passive, present γαμίζομαι; imperfect ἐγαμιζόμην]; (γάμος); to give a daughter in marriage: 1 Corinthians 7:38a [L T Tr WH, 38b] G L T Tr WH; passive: Matthew 22:30 L T Tr WH; [Matthew 24:38 T WH]; Mark 12:25; Luke 17:27; Luke 20:35 [WH marginal reading γαμίσκονται]. (The word is mentioned in Apoll. de constr. 3, 31 p. 280, 10 Bekker edition.) [Compare: ἐκγαμίζω.]
γάμος, -ου, ὁ, [probably from the root, gam, to bind, unite; Curtius, p. 546f], as in Greek writings from Homer down;
G1062 γάμος gamos marriage, wedding
1. a wedding or marriage-festival: John 2:1; Revelation 19:7 (under the figure of a marriage here is represented the intimate and everlasting union of Christ, at his return from heaven, with his church); τὸ δεῖπνον τοῦ γάμου, Revelation 19:9 (a symbol of the future blessings of the Messiah's kingdom); especially a wedding-banquet, a marriage-feast: Matthew 22:8, 10 [here T WH Tr marginal reading νυμφών], Matthew 22:11, 12; plural (referring apparently to the several acts of feasting), Matthew 22:2ff, Matthew 22:9; Matthew 25:10; Luke 12:36; Luke 14:8 (cf. Winers Grammar, § 27, 3; Buttmann, 23 (21)).
2. marriage, matrimony: Hebrews 13:4.
G1547 ἐκγαμίζω enkamizō give in marriage
ἐκγαμίζω ekgamízō, ek-gam-id'-zo; from G1537 and a form of G1061 (compare G1548); to marry off a daughter:—give in marriage.
ἐκγαμίζω; Passive [present ἐκγαμίζομαι]; imperfect ἐξεγαμιζόμην; to give away (ἐκ out of the house [cf. Winers Grammar, 102 (97)]) in marriage: a daughter, 1 Corinthians 7:38a R G [1 Corinthians 7:38b Rec.]; Matthew 24:38 R G Tr text. passive, to marry, to be given in marriage, Matthew 22:30 R G [cf. Tdf.'s note at the passage]; Luke 17:27 R G; see γαμίζω. Not found elsewhere.
Related entry:
γαμίζω; [Passive, present γαμίζομαι; imperfect ἐγαμιζόμην]; (γάμος); to give a daughter in marriage: 1 Corinthians 7:38a [L T Tr WH, 38b] G L T Tr WH; passive: Matthew 22:30 L T Tr WH; [Matthew 24:38 T WH]; Mark 12:25; Luke 17:27; Luke 20:35 [WH marginal reading γαμίσκονται]. (The word is mentioned in Apoll. de constr. 3, 31 p. 280, 10 Bekker edition.) [Compare: ἐκγαμίζω.]
G1548 ἐκγαμίσκω enkamiskō give in marriage ἐκγαμίσκω ekgamískō, ek-gam-is'-ko; from G1537 and G1061; the same as 1547:—give in marriage.
- to give away in marriage: a daughter
- to marry, to be given in marriage
ἐκγαμίσκω, equivalent to ἐκγαμίζω, which see: passive [present ἐκγαμίσκομαι]; Luke 20:34f. R G; cf. γαμίσκω and Fritzsche on Mark, p. 529ff. Not found elsewhere.
@AbrahamSolomon, does a man who sleeps with a prostitute become one flesh with her?
If she is not already married and he Takes Her into His House as a Wife then Yes.
The Taking is Key "if" she is Unmarried.
Marriage and just having Sex is not the same, She has to be unmarried and The Man must take or be given that Wife.
A (Prostitute) might be a woman whose mom and dad died or a window seeking income and if that (Prostitute) is Unmarried then I could take her as a Wife and be Married.
As in if I take a Wife by Force she is still mine even if no one Give her to me in the case of a Woman who's Family was dead.
Wife: Be a helper to your husband (Covenant) Yes
Unmarried Raped Woman: “the man who raped her is to give the young woman's father fifty silver shekels, and she will become his wife"
(Covenant) Yes
Concubine: a wife or sexual partner of secondary status (Covenant) No
Bonds/Slave Woman: a woman held in forced servitude (Covenant) No
Handmaiden: a female servant who serves her mistress (Covenant) No
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So you are ignoring 1 Corinthians 6:16, which specifically says that anyone who has sex with a harlot becomes one flesh with her, and are replacing this with your own interpretation, where you say you only become one flesh with her if you make her your wife.
As I said, you are ignoring the clear words of scripture, and replacing them with your own thoughts.
"What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh."
Your understanding of this must be consistent with all scripture - not just some scripture. If a single passage of scripture contradicts what you believe, you can't ignore it and keep thinking what you think is right. You have to change your understanding to accommodate that scripture.
No, I said having sex is not marriage
Nowhere did I say (Sex) was (Marriage) and if (Sex) is (One Flesh) then (One Flesh) is (Not Mariage)
I can have sex with a married woman many, many times and never be able to be Married to her even if Sex is One Flesh.
This alone should show the sex is not Marriage and if sex is One flesh than that is not Marriage either.
Marriage is The Taking or Giving of a Woman who is not Married. He Takes or is Given her as Property to his House and becomes One and this becomes an Ownership/Marriage He Owns her and she is His Wife.
Maybe its hard to understand what I am getting at but sex is not marriage or is One Flesh alone if it is just sex.
Translated: a Wife by Taking Home and Making His Own.
I Agree.
אישה על ידי מגורים משותפים = Wife by cohabitation
@The Revolting Man is 100% right.
He have to be able to leave presuppositions of paganism. Otherwise we can never figure our faith.
Off-gridinwv
New Member
But it says that marriage is honorable in all, it doesn't say marriage is honorable with all. Example: was it honorable for Herod to marry his brother's wife?
Possibly, or the problem is a practical one of being joined to a harlot. The whole harlot thing is a difficulty for me to begin with. I don’t have a good explanation for that category of woman on almost any level.
That being said I can’t redefine one flesh in light of Matthew 19:6.
I agree, it's difficult if you want to nail down the technical theological details. However, in general terms, it is very clear that prostitution as a practice is repeatedly spoken against from many different angles throughout scripture - so it is something we are not to do. On the other hand, it is also clear that there is no punishment for a prostitute, because God is compassionate and knows that women do not generally choose prostitution out of a desire to wilfully sin, but rather end up there out of desperation, and he does not add extra penalties to kick them when they're already down. We can't really explain that category of woman legalistically - because God does not treat them legalistically, instead compassionately.