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Perfect Perfection

Salvation and perfection are on differnet pages with one another. Salvation is by believieng and repenting, I do believe that some people do not get a chance to reach that perfect state before they die, but God knows their heart. So it's important to preach repentence, and not so much being saved. How can we be the judge who is saved and who is not saved, just because they said a prayer? The scripture says you will know them by their fruits. We shall repent and like the scripture say move on from repentence to perfection. Not laying again the foundation of repentence but going on to perfection. There is differenet levels in all of our walks.
 
As a Messianic I believe still though there is more than the 66 books. I also believe there may be profits, but I have yet to see or meet them. If you look there were more than 66 books to begin with but only 66 made the cannon. Many however are surfacing as of late. Though when reading the Hebrew and the English I have noticed some big differences in the translation vs the true translation. Though I am not saying either is right or wrong, I am saying I was always taught to ask questions. When my mother decided to go to a friends church for a while who was gentile it was always everyone is going to hell, but as I got older I started to figure there are good and bad people in every religion and we all have our own way of finding Yah.
 
sharonr said:
Salvation and perfection are on differnet pages with one another. Salvation is by believieng and repenting, I do believe that some people do not get a chance to reach that perfect state before they die, but God knows their heart. So it's important to preach repentence, and not so much being saved. How can we be the judge who is saved and who is not saved, just because they said a prayer? The scripture says you will know them by their fruits. We shall repent and like the scripture say move on from repentence to perfection. Not laying again the foundation of repentence but going on to perfection. There is differenet levels in all of our walks.
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You are correct that salvation is by believing and repenting. You must remember that it is ONLY by believing and repenting. Works have nothing to do with it.

However, if we are truly saved, then Christ will work in our lives, and we will want to work for Him. "Faith without works is dead" means that if you truly have faith, you will do works for God. If you're not doing works, then you've got to examine yourself - do you really believe? Because if you really do believe in Jesus, you will obey Him, as He said "If you love me, keep my commandments" - and He commands us to "love your neighbour as yourself" etc. The fruits of the Spirit are, like this, the outwardly visible signs of the Holy Spirit working in our lives.

Works are evidence of faith, and therefore of salvation. But that is all. They are not required for it, and the lack of them does not take salvation away either. That is what we mean when we preach salvation "by faith alone" (sola fide - one of the key philosophies of the Protestant reformation).
 
Works are evidence of faith, and therefore of salvation. But that is all. They are not required for it, and the lack of them does not take salvation away either. That is what we mean when we preach salvation "by faith alone" (sola fide - one of the key philosophies of the Protestant reformation).
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Hey not in agreement with you on this one. I do not have a religion I just follow Jesus and believe in Christ, and the Holy Spirit and God. So, what I believe is Christ is coming back to judge us, and nobody can tell me if I'm saved or not, I believe and walk in him. Telling people they are saved from just saying a prayer is what many churches of today preach. We do not attend church, because they teach things the bible does not state. I do not want a debate, I just am letting you know where I stand as a believer. If you don't repent of sins you are in wrong standing with God. So that's why we need to repent. Jesus said repent or you will perish. Many will be knocking saying Lord Lord haven't we have prophesied in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and he will say depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you.

Read Galatians 5:12-25

The scripture states how we should walk and live in spirit and not in the flesh. And if you walk in the flesh we will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Gillfam, It seems to Me You've done some studying, but wnat is Messianic??

Jay
 
sharonr said:
Works are evidence of faith, and therefore of salvation. But that is all. They are not required for it, and the lack of them does not take salvation away either. That is what we mean when we preach salvation "by faith alone" (sola fide - one of the key philosophies of the Protestant reformation).
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Hey not in agreement with you on this one. I do not have a religion I just follow Jesus and believe in Christ, and the Holy Spirit and God. So, what I believe is Christ is coming back to judge us, and nobody can tell me if I'm saved or not, I believe and walk in him. Telling people they are saved from just saying a prayer is what many churches of today preach.
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The idea you are saved from just reciting some formulated "sinner's prayer" is nonsense, I completely agree with you there, it isn't in the Bible and is a dangerous teaching because it tells people they can just say a prayer then forget about God.

So what does the Bible say?
"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
It's not about reciting some prayer. It's about actually believing in Jesus as the "Lord", or master, of your life. In other words, repenting - turning from your old life and choosing to from this day forward try to follow His instructions to the best of your understanding and ability. Because He is now your Lord.

But it is not actually obeying His commandments that saves you, because that would imply you could work your way to heaven. That's what most religions teach (such as Islam), but not Christianity - we are saved through grace, not works. The Bible does not say "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and if you manage to actually follow His commandments, thou shalt be saved". It says that you are saved by simply choosing to follow. Not by the works themselves, but by the intention of your heart.

On Galatians 5, I agree that those who choose to continue in the "works of the flesh" will not be saved. Clearly the intention of their heart was never severe, they did not truly choose to accept Jesus as their Lord. And that is the problem with the "sinner's prayer" - it makes people think they can just do that wee ritual insincerely and continue in the works of the flesh. Which won't save them.
 
Phillipians 2:12 Therefore my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Satan is trying to attack believers in many differnet ways. Dont we all experience the temptations just as Jesus did. But what do we do in those temptations? Do we sin or do we obey. We will be judged according to our ways in the end. Did we do what God wanted our own will?
He said only those who do the will of God will inherit the kingdom. Jesus stated my brothers and sisters are those who hear the word of God and do it.
The devil is coming to decieve the Saints. The devil tempted Jesus and Jesus did not obey. I believe if you go around preaching about salvation and leaving out doing God's commandments people may do what they want instead of hearing and doing the word of God.
Luke 8:11-15 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the wayside are he ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Now arent we suppose to be doing the commandments? The scripture says if you love me you will keep my commandments. The main point of the word is for us to do it not just believe it. Not the hearers of the word are just but the doers.
James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and recive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save yur souls.
22 But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
James 1 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will recieve the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

We are still tempted to do wrong. So in the end we will be judged according to if we sinned or obeyed in this lifetime. Does our life fit the example Jesus left? Thats why he came to show us how to live and be just like Him, which is possible. That's why God gave us the Holy Spirit to help us. The scripture says whoever endures to the end will be saved
1John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin, whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
So when God shows us our sins we should repent through Him, He can cleanse us. And we keep getting off all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfectiong holiness in the fear of God. He cleanses us from glory to glory.
If we fear and love Him we will keep His commandments.
Peter 4:18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?
 
Folling Him wrote:
But it is not actually obeying His commandments that saves you, because that would imply you could work your way to heaven.
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1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
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Following Him wrote:
That's what most religions teach (such as Islam), but not Christianity - we are saved through grace, not works.
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what is works, what does works mean to you?
 
To me works is behavior. There is nothing that we can do to earn salvation. It was purchased for us through the death of Jesus Christ. We should strive to be more Christlike daily, but our salvation comes from His Grace only.

SweetLissa
 
Sweet Lisa wrote:
To me works is behavior. There is nothing that we can do to earn salvation.
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Galatians 5: 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, unleaness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, scrcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, hersies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.So are you telling me that people who commit adultery, people who hold on and are practicing such things now are representing Christ in their behavoir?
No! If they dont repent they are in wrong standing with God and will be judged. If we see wrong or if God corrects us we are suppose to repent and remain saved!! I dont get it, I once was in that teaching that once you believed that's it, but God opened my eyes and edified and brought me to truth like He's trying to do to you now. Once saved always saved is a false doctrine. We have to remain walking like Him and acting like Him.
The word says narrow is the way and difficult is the way that leads to life and few will find it. We got to endure through trials, through persecutions, through temptations,and remain faithful to God. We got to walk this out, they got people out there believeing that once saved always saved no matter what you do; people think they can kill people and curse, listen to crazy music and drink, and still saying they saved. Their behavoir is not representing Christ. When I heard that doctrine I was still acting like a straight up sinner, clubbing, cussing and so on. But when I heard the truth that we got to keep growing and putting off all evil I began to grow and change dramactically. Christ is not just gonna let anybody in His kingdom, we suppose to be aiming for perfection like what was said before.
 
Sweet Lisa wrote:
To me works is behavior. There is nothing that we can do to earn salvation.
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James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
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James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, " You have faith, and I have works. " Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

FAITH WITH WORKS

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?'
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
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Sweet Lisa wrote:
The only way is to go through Christ. If Christ has a hold on a person's heart then they would not go out of their way to commit the horrible sins that you mentioned in your post. But each person must make a decision to choose Christ as their lord and savior. No, I don't think I can live any way I want to and still go to heaven. If I truly give my life over to Christ then that will not happen. I will live every day to give Glory to Christ.
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Alright I feel you thanks for breaking it down perfectly.
 
Sharon, I don't think anybody here would say you can just say a wee prayer then go off and murder somebody thinking that's ok. If you think that's what we are saying you haven't read our posts correctly, go back and read what we have actually said rather than looking at the words but hearing your presuppositions. The Bble is absolutely explicit that we must REPENT - which does not mean say a prayer, it actually means to turn from your sins.

So we are to have faith, and also do good works. The issue we are debating is purely what actually saves us - and that is faith. Works show that somebody has faith, and are therefore an important part of this whole issue that are mentioned many times in scripture - but it is the faith that saves somebody. All of the verses you have quoted back this up, I'll just pick one example:
sharonr said:
James 2:18 But someone will say, " You have faith, and I have works. " Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
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The point of this verse is that you can't have one without the other, but it is faith that is the critical one. The verse talks about how we show that we have faith - and that is through works. You cannot demonstrate faith without actually doing something. If you say "I have faith in God" but go around killing people, you're clearly lying.

I don't think we're going to get anywhere in this discussion though as you are absolutely convinced that every word your husband says is 100% correct, which is an understandable position, but means that we can't actually influence your views through a discussion like this. Only he could.

If you do want to understand this issue better, there is an excellent brief summary of salvation by faith, including many verses for you to consider, at the below link. Salvation by faith along, with works being purely the evidence of faith, is stated explicitly throughout the New Testament. If your husband is not clear on this I am sure many of the men here would be very glad to help explain this to him, but I will stop discussing this matter with you at this point.
http://carm.org/are-we-saved-faith-alone-or-do-we-need-works-too
Galatians 2:16 "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
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Galatians 2:16 "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
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This scripture states the works of the law.
The law.

I will continue to stand with my husband.
 
Earlier, I waltzed right past this thread, seeing the original post and deciding I didn't feel like getting involved. I now see that it has gotten a bit lengthy and wondered if I ought to post now. I see that Samuel and others have given a Biblical and excellent expression of the doctrine of salvation, the part of faith, works, and repentance. I suggest a reading of Romans 3-5 for a greater scope of the topic, noting specifically Abraham's faith being counted as righteousness with works that followed that faith.

I don't see this getting terribly interesting or profitable any time soon. I do wish to jump in on this last post concerning a wife believing as her husband does. I am glad to see a woman standing by her husband, even when he is in error. The man will be judged according to how he led his family, and if he willfully leads them into error, he will be judged accordingly. If the husband is not on our forum, it might be best to end this discussion here. If he wishes to speak for himself, I would welcome the discussion.
 
Yeah Mark, that is how I feel about it too. As it is, there is a real chance of creating division in another man's house. Certainly not a profitable or desirable outcome.

Although, if the husband were here that might be all together a different situation.
 
I agree it is good to see her standing by her husband.

However I am becoming very concerned about what her husband is teaching. She just quoted a scripture passage that states very clearly "a man is not justified by the works of the law", and said in response to it "The scripture states the works of the law" on her husband's authority. She is reading completely the opposite of what the scripture says, standing by her husband's view without even considering a scripture that completely contradicts him. This suggests brainwashing rather than accepting leadership in a Godly fashion. My wife follows my teaching - but if she found a scripture that contradicted me I would expect her to bring that to me for discussion, not reject it. We all have more to learn, God's so big that we'll be learning more about Him our entire lives, and discussing scriptural issues with a believing wife is one valuable way to learn more.
 
Thanks ChrisM, I can only go where my husband take me. I can only go where he go, and that's where I will go. I stand behind him 100percent. He knows that and he is trusting me.
 
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