• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Secular arguments against poly

DeathIsNotTheEnd

Member
Real Person
Male
Alright so, I haven't thought about this in a while, but months ago my brother made a big stink and got into a huge argument with me about poly. He had no interest in debating Biblical teachings, but instead brought up 'secular' arguments of why poly is bad. In particular he cited this study:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.org/news/2012-01-monogamy-major-social-problems-polygamist.amp

With no desire to court debate simply for debate's sake, I'm wondering if some of the INTJ types on this forum would be willing to tackle a logic-based response to these assertions made in this study? :)

(PS: you'll earn yourself some baked cookies as thanks for me not having to do it myself ;) )
 
I only briefly looked at the article; seems to be saying polygamy leads to competition, which leads to violence. I don't doubt there is some degree of truth in this. At the risk of invoking the law-of-first-mention, look at Lamech nearly getting himself killed, and retaliating (not necessarily because of polygamy per se, but there was definitely some class privilege going on there). Ultimately this is the same argument trotted out by socialists against wealth inequality and owning property. Capitalism causes greed and violence! Someone owns more than I do? Revolution, my comrades! Seize the means of (re-)production.

As for the study, it finds what it measures, and doesn't find what it doesn't measure (at least I assume so, having not read it in depth). If polygyny leads to competition, leads to violence, which is bad, than the question you should ask, is what happens when there is no competition? It might be that a lack of competition is equally bad, or worse. In Socialist states, the people get lazy, and eventually the countries fall. In states where the culture becomes overly celibate, this is what happens (this just popped up in my feed today):

In conclusion, monogamy in general is fine as a baseline system. Polygamy and celibacy can both provide usefull pressure valves to stabilize that system various situations. Too much of either will lead problems, but prohibiting either also comes with problems.

But that's just my perspective.
 
Last edited:
Dr. Patricia Dixon says precisely the opposite of the OP article with a secular argument. ..
 

Attachments

  • 2019-03-29 20.03.45.jpg
    2019-03-29 20.03.45.jpg
    1.3 MB · Views: 22
Last edited:
First of all, while this is a 'published study' it isn't really science. They can't do tests, they can't do control groups. It's not like they can take two identical populations, except for poly/mono and then see what happens. What they are doing is all statistical analysis, none of which is listed in the study paper. And you know what they say: lies, damned lies and statistics.

Now because we're dealing with statistics you need data, which means they're using modern information. And that presents a huge problem. For today the practice of polygamy is limited to only a few religions and ethnicities; mostly those which have escaped the clutches of the empire (and so also loose many of its economic benefits). There are just too many confounding factors like race, religion, IQ, culture, politics, economics, etc. All we can do is trust the study authors correctly controlled for these. And that would be a fools errand. As it is today, scientists doing actual science, with randomized double blind controled studies of test subjects; the repeatability of those is something like 40%; which is worse than a coin flip.

Second, the study authors have a huge blind spot...

"Our goal was to understand why monogamous marriage has become standard in most developed nations in recent centuries, when most recorded cultures have practiced polygyny,"

They assume therefor that because is the dominant social system now whereas it wasn't before, it must have confired some advantage to overcome our natural poly urges, so they go looking for it (hence the study findings). But what if it was an accident of history?

There is an easy answer to their question: it piggy-backed on Christian Western Civilization like a virus; a civilization that went global with the benefit of our technology (something which historians attribute to our Christian background) or maybe some other factor (genetic, cultural, etc) that was of greater effect than monogamy. And in fact, the authors mention in the study conclusion that religions could have been a factor in it's spread. Let me further demonstrate.

What if this study was done in 1100 AD or there abouts? At that time the polygamous Vikings ruled from Scandinavia to Italy and had the European monarchies on the ropes everywhere. Furthermore the European countries were not yet stringly monogamous. At this time, if you looked around, you'd think that polygamy was the most advantageous system.

Now what if you do this study 100 years from now in the future, at a time when the polygamous Muslims have taken over the dominant world powers and polgyamy is now the norm. Again, you might think that polygamy was the most advantageous. You might look at the rise of monogamy as a temporary blip, a happenstance that occured because of the Europeans head start in technology but that eventually human biology (which the study authors admit tends to polygamy) reasserted it's natural order.

Really, what's going on here is mythmaking. They're buttressing this idea that poly leads to bad things and mono to good things. But by that measure you could look at mono marriage now and condemn it.

Counter narratives:

1. Monogamy is socialism of the sex market. Socialism never works because it violates the laws of nature. Look at today. Marriage is failing. Scientists are starting to worry about an accumulation of bad genes in our population leading to people getting sicker and sicker. Polygamy is a survival of the fittest that is necessary to ensure the biological health of our species.

2. We are advocating Biblical Marriage. Could there be bad effects to polygamy in Islamic countries that do not benefit from the Christian fruits of the Spirit? Quite obviously. But that should be different in a society ruled by Christ.

3. Even if the study authors are right, and that polgyamy leads to men without women and that leads to bad outcomes; there are other solutions besides monogamy. One that was common before monogamy is monasteries. They provide an outlet and life for unattached men that is of benefit to them and the society. They didn't go away in our culture because monogamy gave them all wives; they went away because the state found it advantageous to disband them and take their lands and wealth.

4. The study authors argument depends on showing that polygamy increases the pool of unmarried men. This would not be the case if the polygamous society had a positive birthrate and an age gap between men and women (5 years is enough). That would result in a surplus of women to ensure the rate of unmarried men did not increase. Such a setup would also result in increased family stability.

5. Monogamy is a myth; it doesn't exist. What we have is sleeping around and serial monogamy. In formally polygamous societies you often have only 10-20% of the population with multiple wives. In our monogamous society? That top % still has multiple women. Except instead of building stable families with a couple women they sleep around with multiple women leading to broken homes, broken women, and broken children. No amount of moralizing or laws will stop that. Unless you make it acceptable for them to have multiple wives. And the bottom % of men, they won't get women in any system; they're too ugly, not interested, damaged, or dead. The societal cost of all these fatherless children is massive; probably (I don't know) far greater than what the study authors found.

6. God quite clearly established polygamy with His Law, and His law was perfect, righteous and just. God would not have done that if it were not the best way. I trust God's wisdom over that of modern God hating 'scientists'.

7. Polygamy is survival of the fittest applied to the sexual market. You can't cheat nature. Nature bats last and always wins. We are biologically created for polygamy. For example, that same page has a link to this study demonstrating that the sperm of males in a polygamous society for 12 generations were significantly more fertile than the monogamous males. What the study doesn't document is sperm health before and after nor how long it took for the effect to become evident. So it is entirely possible, but unstudied, that monogamy is leading to a steep reduction in male fertility and in far less time than 12 generations. And guess what? We're seeing this same problem in human society today with decreased sperm quality and dramatically falling testosterone levels.

And finally...

Monogamous marriage has largely preceded democracy and voting rights for women in the nations where it has been institutionalized, says Henrich, the Canadian Research Chair in Culture, Cognition and Evolution in UBC's Depts. of Psychology and Economics. By decreasing competition for younger and younger brides, monogamous marriage increases the age of first marriage for females, decreases the spousal age gap and elevates female influence in household decisions which decreases total fertility and increases gender equality.

History isn't going to view those as virtues of monogamy. Not since it lead to subreplacement rate fertility, the gutting of all our cultural and legal institutions, and our overthrow by foreign populations.

Frankly, the fact monogamy leads to decreasing fertility is proof that it is biologically disadvantageous. Especially since it has taken us below replacement rate. It doesn't matter what your crime rate is if the species is dying.
 
Last edited:
I knew I could count on you @rockfox ;)
Thank you guys. Just what I was looking for! :)

:cool:

3. Even if the study authors are right, and that polgyamy leads to men without women and that leads to bad outcomes; there are other solutions besides monogamy. One that was common before monogamy is monasteries. They provide an outlet and life for unattached men that is of benefit to them and the society. They didn't go away in our culture because monogamy gave them all wives; they went away because the state found it advantageous to disband them and take their lands and wealth.

Another thought about this....even with monogamy we are poorer for not having monasteries. Much like the poor, unmarriageable men will always be with us. Monogamy purports to give every man a woman but it simply fails to deliver that. At least with healthy monastic and friar orders they would be encouraged toward good works for God and nation; as opposed to descent into hedonism, drugs, porn, depression and suicide.

But by and large no one actually cares about men. The argument about men being deprived of wives is a conceit; it's really all about supporting wifely power in marriage.
 
Let's say you have two wives and both of them are a generation younger than you. Now we are not talking about child brides here mind you, but men who wait until their 40s to get married, but their wives are in their 20s. Each wife has four children. If you have three wives, make that 6 children. On average there are the same number of boys as girls. Now your daughters likewise marry in their 20s to a successful 40 something year old man, and likewise have 4 children each (for the sake of simplification, we stick with four children each, and 2 wives for each man). So now when your four sons are grown, they each marry two wives, and your 4 daughters have each given birth on average to 2 girls and two boys, such that by the time your sons reach their 40s, there are enough full grown adult women growing into marriageable age as your sons will find in the way of wives. No one has to die prematurely, or go to prison for that matter. They simply work on their careers and move their way up the corporate ladder with no pressure whatsoever to marry, and when they do, there are enough available women so that none of them will find themselves as one of the proverbial "lost boys".

Now then, the younger wives don't have that freedom their husbands had for that 20 something year period, but that will come after the husband dies. At that point they can remarry at their own leisure, and some men who have only two wives, may decide to take on one of those widows as a third or fourth wife. Polygyny works quite well hand in hand with age gap marriage, and as long as the man is not marrying some child bride, a lot of the issues that article finds fault with in polygyny are simply put, non-issues. There are some who claim that age difference in marriage leads to more homicides amongst spouses, but I don't see anyone pushing to outlaw age-gap marriage. So a successful man can have two wives and eight children, and then marry an additional wife or two, from the set of women whose husband dies at 85 or so, and has left behind a couple of wives in their 60s, who desire another husband. No shortage of women, and no shortage of husbands for those women whose husbands were 20 years or so older! Perfect compliment IMHO.
 
Let's say you have two wives and both of them are a generation younger than you. Now we are not talking about child brides here mind you, but men who wait until their 40s to get married, but their wives are in their 20s. Each wife has four children. If you have three wives, make that 6 children. On average there are the same number of boys as girls. Now your daughters likewise marry in their 20s to a successful 40 something year old man, and likewise have 4 children each (for the sake of simplification, we stick with four children each, and 2 wives for each man). So now when your four sons are grown, they each marry two wives, and your 4 daughters have each given birth on average to 2 girls and two boys, such that by the time your sons reach their 40s, there are enough full grown adult women growing into marriageable age as your sons will find in the way of wives. No one has to die prematurely, or go to prison for that matter. They simply work on their careers and move their way up the corporate ladder with no pressure whatsoever to marry, and when they do, there are enough available women so that none of them will find themselves as one of the proverbial "lost boys".

Now then, the younger wives don't have that freedom their husbands had for that 20 something year period, but that will come after the husband dies. At that point they can remarry at their own leisure, and some men who have only two wives, may decide to take on one of those widows as a third or fourth wife. Polygyny works quite well hand in hand with age gap marriage, and as long as the man is not marrying some child bride, a lot of the issues that article finds fault with in polygyny are simply put, non-issues. There are some who claim that age difference in marriage leads to more homicides amongst spouses, but I don't see anyone pushing to outlaw age-gap marriage. So a successful man can have two wives and eight children, and then marry an additional wife or two, from the set of women whose husband dies at 85 or so, and has left behind a couple of wives in their 60s, who desire another husband. No shortage of women, and no shortage of husbands for those women whose husbands were 20 years or so older! Perfect compliment IMHO.

@FollowingHim did the math on this somewhere on the forum. IIRC with an average family size of 6 and just a 5 year age gap every man could have 2 wives. But don't quote me on that.
 
@FollowingHim did the math on this somewhere on the forum. IIRC with an average family size of 6 and just a 5 year age gap every man could have 2 wives. But don't quote me on that.
6 with each wife? Because I don't think the math works out so well if you have three from each.
 
6 with each wife? Because I don't think the math works out so well if you have three from each.

6 per woman. For a 5 year gap. Push that gap to 10 or 15 years and it wouldn't take as many per wife. 6 isn't that many either. It used to be pretty common a couple generations ago. The Amish average about 6.8.
 
Let's say you have two wives and both of them are a generation younger than you.
Now then, the younger wives don't have that freedom their husbands had for that 20 something year period, but that will come after the husband dies.
These two elements might throw a monkey wrench into the good in theory plan.
Not many men want to be 40 year old virgins, and 'freedom' often includes using women without commitment. This, unless she is a professional and not the marrying kind can often result in pregnancy and or marriage. Now he's paying child support, or at least has dependents to support. If he remains chaste he then has to try and convince one or more woman substantially younger to marry him, and he has no track record.
 
Personally I’m not hopeful or even wanting to have a polygynist society. I hope for tacit acceptance lol!

A smaller polygynist subculture can exist quite happily within a monogamous society as long as they are not being persecuted. A polygynist society made up of mostly non-believers will screw up polygyny even worse than monogamy. My goal would be to end any legal persecution of plural families, but not a shifting of our entire society to polygamy. So while it is interesting to me, how the polygynist ancient nation of Israel functioned, i see little need to worry about the logistics of making a modern polygynist society function.
 
A polygynist society made up of mostly non-believers will screw up polygyny even worse than monogamy.

How so?

My first thought was in hoarding wives. But in 59% of all poly societies, less than 20% of marriages had multiple wives.

No, I think unbelievers are quite able to have good marriages. I don't think them screwing up polygamy is a foregone conclusion. Frankly, American Christians have screwed up marriage worse than many pagan nations.

However I think tacit acceptance within a generally monogamous society is a realistic goal.
 
Personally I’m not hopeful or even wanting to have a polygynist society. I hope for tacit acceptance lol!

A smaller polygynist subculture can exist quite happily within a monogamous society as long as they are not being persecuted. A polygynist society made up of mostly non-believers will screw up polygyny even worse than monogamy. My goal would be to end any legal persecution of plural families, but not a shifting of our entire society to polygamy. So while it is interesting to me, how the polygynist ancient nation of Israel functioned, i see little need to worry about the logistics of making a modern polygynist society function.
Well in order to achieve that goal of tacit acceptance, we have to destroy the arguments of those fear-mongers who tout how bad things are when there are not enough women to go around for all the men. My point is made from a mathematical perspective, not taking into consideration the fact that many men will not want any wives, and most won't want a second wife, that if you factored all that out, there are still plenty of good women to go around, and as long as we are not pursuing child brides, most of those secular arguments are moot.
 
These two elements might throw a monkey wrench into the good in theory plan.
Not many men want to be 40 year old virgins, and 'freedom' often includes using women without commitment. This, unless she is a professional and not the marrying kind can often result in pregnancy and or marriage. Now he's paying child support, or at least has dependents to support. If he remains chaste he then has to try and convince one or more woman substantially younger to marry him, and he has no track record.
Well as Christians, the freedom we are talking about, has nothing to do with taking women we are not going to have any responsibility for. One of the reasons I can say personally that I did not want to be a 40 year old virgin myself, was the imagined fear that marriage opportunities would all pass me by. In this scenario however, that is nothing to be concerned about. This whole idea that you have to marry a woman who is close in proximity to your age, is not biblical, and most certainly was not how men in the Bible lived their lives. It is true that this is abnormal and looked down upon in our society, but the reasons for this, are rather silly. So yes, it is more difficult for a man who is 40 something, to marry a 20 something year old woman, in a time and place where that is considered abnormal, and here is one area where I see the FLDS cult groups dropping the ball, societally speaking, because they are marrying their women off even younger. So we are not like them in that respect. Is it difficult for a 40 something year old man to find a 20 something year old woman, in the society in which we live? Yes and no. It may be uncomfortable for them to do so, for fear of being thought of as a creep or a proverbial "dirty old man", but that's just something he has to work through, and if a 20 something year old says, "No", just move on and find another one. Oh, and if he bathes frequently and takes care of his personal hygiene, he is not really a dirty old man, but rather a clean, middle aged man. :)
 
It’s a great theory, but I don’t think that you can get there from here.
 
It’s a great theory, but I don’t think that you can get there from here.
Well again, the theory is only intended to shoot down the secular arguments. The actual and stated goal, and the reason we need to shoot down those arguments, is to gain acceptance. Remember, the secular argument, is somewhat based on the theory that everyone will participate in poly, until there are no available women.
 
Well again, the theory is only intended to shoot down the secular arguments. The actual and stated goal, and the reason we need to shoot down those arguments, is to gain acceptance. Remember, the secular argument, is somewhat based on the theory that everyone will participate in poly, until there are no available women.
Ok, it just seems that fighting emotion with logic isn’t going to get much traction.
The enemy of our souls fears and hates this truth. It is himself that we are at war with.
My recommended battleplan is to do what is right and suffer the consequences, but if logic works, more power to you.
 
Back
Top