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Moderator note: For the benefit of readers, this topic is being discussed with male input (including Oreslag's thoughts from earlier) and a more thorough treatment of the relevant scriptures at the link below:
http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3866

Sharon, I am not locking this thread because people disagree with you, it is good to disagree and discuss our disagreements, because that's the only way we either learn from or teach others. This is a valuable topic, thankyou for bringing it up.

If you could all please try and keep this long discussion in this thread (lots of short posts where you are trying to understand each others opinions) that would be very helpful. If we save Oreslag's thread for a smaller number of posts that each have a more thorough treatment of scripture, it will become a more readable and valuable resource for future reference. Both discussions are useful, but they will be more readable if kept separate. Thanks.
 
Eve was first deceived, and gave fruit to husbands, many times in scripture the women decieved the man, but where does the men deceive the women. Jezebel, Eve, The bible says for women to learn in silence, why, because the devil comes to deceive us and give us lies.

Isabele I am in no way confused, I stand on this truth, I am giving what is holy to yall to trample on. If anything you have a carnal mind and can not understand things scriptural.
 
You were offered up examples where that clearly did not happen, just because you believe that it would happen to you, certainly does not mean it should be a widespread policy, that way Madness lays.

I am sorry Sharonr but you appear to be a bit confused and distressed. Why not instead of pushing your agenda so strongly just listen for a while?
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I do listen and its false, the bible says dont be tossed to and for with every doctrine.
It clearly happened in scripture when Sarah was taken by Pharoah, and God gave Pharoah a dream telling her its another man's wife you have taken, I disscused this in an earlier thread. God is powerful, and how can you even think that he won't intervene. Phoroah gave Sara back to Abraham because of the power of God, coming through to help her. God didnt even let Pharoah touch her, it's mentioned in scripture, God is all powerful and I say that with much passion!

Genisis 20
6 And God said to him in a dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now therefore, restore the man’s wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”
 
Your husband may tell you something, but God changes it, what if the wife says, oh no I thought that was wrong, and she then decides, no I wont follow you in this. This walk will consists of many turn arounds, many changes, through the man you are following, God never told us women to distinguish if it's right or wrong, he said to just follow, just like with Lots wife, us women cant look back.
This is an example of what I mean when how can we know if it is sin

If I believe in what yall are telling me, then I think I will begin to question everything my husband tells me, and everything he does. THIS IS A BIG LIE, that we need to think about, Satan want to tear family's apart, and I have been through this, questioning my husbands walk, judging his actions, thinking twice about obeying him, thinking what if its wrong. This is all this doctrine brings is an open door. We are suppose to ask him questions if we are concerned, and its that simple.
 
I don't think you are getting the message Sharonr.

I do not refuse to submit to my husband based on my opinion. If it ever happens, it will be based on biblical reference to sin. Lying is sin. Murder is sin. Bearing false witness is sin. Adultery is sin. Not honoring parents is sin. Stealing is sin. Coveting my neighbors things is sin. Believing in more than one god is sin. Making graven images is a sin. Taking the Lord's name in vain is sin. These are clearly written and not subject to opinion or interpretation.

SweetLissa
 
Sweet Lisa, I understand all that is sin, I just never been through that, where my husband has told me any of these things. If he was to, maybe he wouldn't command me to do it, maybe he would just ask could you, and if I said, that is not of God, then okay. If he doesn't command me to do it, then I can refuse as my choice.
 
But your stance has been that NO MATTER WHAT a woman must submit to her husband. I personally know a woman who was kicked out of her church (church discipline) for leaving her abusive (and very huge) husband. He was beating her all the time. Leaving is NOT an act of submission. Her church elders did nothing to protect her and in fact disciplined her because they held this attitude. I do submit to my husband and these things have never happened to me, but I know people (Godly women) to whom these things have happened. God did NOT intervene and they were left with a situation where they had to choose whether to submit (as you say they should) or flee (which is NOT an act of submission.) I have encountered many women that have had to make this choice. Not because they didn't want to submit but because to so would be to cause them to sin or cause them harm or even death.

I am not independent. I totally believe in submission to my husband. But if I am totally submissive to my husband NO MATTER WHAT then I have no protection whatsoever from abuse or any other sinful act.

Therefore, I believe that if my God loves me, he cannot intend for me to be completely unprotected. If my husband is behaving as he should all the time, I have no worries. But if he goes to certain extremes I feel confident that I have some rights too.

SweetLissa
 
How is leaving not an act of submission. Leaving is only getting away from trouble/danger. The bible does not say that seperation is wrong. Is says that divorce is wrong. God knows that certain things do come up, that one may need to seperate them self from.

Also the bible clearly states to Submit In Everything. Why didn't the bible give us these clear rules or give us examples of this, if it's of Him. No one has pointed anything i scripture that is relevant to this.

Again now we bring up leaving the husband because of harm/danger.
 
If I am in total submission to my husband and he doesn't want me to leave, then leaving is not an act of submission. Submission is not about what he tells you to do. It is about doing what he wants you to do. If I am an abused wife and I leave, then someone might find out about my husband's misdeeds. That would be an out and out disobedience. So what you are saying is that in extreme circumstances a woman can leave but only to protect herself. This is out and out disobedience. So we don't really disagree do we?

If you left would it make your husband happy? No, he would probably tell you to come home. At that point you would not be submitting to him, would you?

SweetLissa
 
Sweet Lisa, only for certain people, when they come to an agreement separation can occur, and God is leading them to make the choice, not just out of anger or giving up.

What if there is abuse, and why is there abuse, look at Juanita Bynum for instance, she was a very prideful and arrogant wife, she was not a submissive and humble wife. You reap consequences when you dont submit to authority, not saying he is right, but men should be dealt with as men, respected.
 
To not submit to one's husband may be a sin (even in extreme cases) but in the case of murder (thanks Samuel) the sin of murder is a sin against God. I would rather not submit to my husband (in extreme cases) than sin against God. Sorry. I am responsible for the condition of my soul. I don't want God to ask me why I lied, stole, murdered or whatever. If my answer is "my husband made me do it" and he says, didn't I give you a brain, and my word so that you could discern right from wrong? I will go to hell.

I don't want to go to hell. I want God to say "well done."

SweetLissa
 
If my answer is "my husband made me do it" and he says, didn't I give you a brain, and my word so that you could discern right from wrong? I will go to hell.
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You wouldnt be held accountable your husband would.
 
There is no place in the bible that tells me that. I am sorry each of us is accountable for our own sins no matter what. To the level of understanding of God's word that each of us has, we are accountable.

Sorry, I don't believe that for one minute.

SweetLissa
 
The thing is the bible tells you to submit, so if he led you the wrong way, and you still obeyed..... God looks at our obedience to our husband, we will be judged accordingly.
 
Where does the bible tell us that.

To quote my hubby
So.. should a wife obey man (her husband) or God. When two absolutes conflict (like the commands to submit to God and submit to husband), which holds the higher law?


Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

SweetLissa
 
Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

This shows that even if a person could have warned the sinner against the sin, the sinner will be punished. If a husband tells me to sin, he should be warning me against sin. Surely he knows what is going on is sin. I will still pay the price.

Sorry, but the entire bible teaches about personal accountability for our own actions. I teaches about a relationship with God and submission to God. My husband is not my God. That is against the 10 commandments. If I allow my husband to be my God then I am totally sinning.

However, when I marry my husband, I trust God to lead my husband and by doing so to care for me. If my husband doesn't do what God tells him to do (and lead me in a Godly way) then my husband has broken trust with my God. Then I must follow my God and not my husband. Sorry, My personal relationship with God is too valuable to take chances with. I am fully accountable for my actions.

SweetLissa
 
If my husband doesn't do what God tells him to do (and lead me in a Godly way) then my husband has broken trust with my God. Then I must follow my God and not my husband. Sorry, My personal relationship with God is too valuable to take chances with. I am fully accountable for my actions.
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Well just not in agreement, hey stand with your husband, and I will stand with mine.
 
So you are saying that your husband is your God? He knows better than God?

Only Christ was able to take the punishment for all of our sins. Your husband cannot take punishment for your sins. If he causes you to sin, he will be punished but so will you. Kind of like when you go to trial as an accomplice to whatever he did. You still get punished even if he did the crime.

SweetLissa
 
sharonr said:
Sweet Lisa, only for certain people, when they come to an agreement separation can occur, and God is leading them to make the choice, not just out of anger or giving up.

What if there is abuse, and why is there abuse, look at Juanita Bynum for instance, she was a very prideful and arrogant wife, she was not a submissive and humble wife. You reap consequences when you dont submit to authority, not saying he is right, but men should be dealt with as men, respected.
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I do not know this person, but I am guessing that you are suggesting that it was alright to abuse her because of her pride? Wow! Sorry, I am done arguing this point. I bet you think that rape victims invite rape by dressing unmodestly?

Show me one place in the bible where a woman was beaten for being prideful or for any other transgression.

Done with this topic.

SweetLissa
 
Both parties are wrong, you can bring stuff upon yourself by acting a certain way. Each person has to look at their self in the matter. If you dress un modestly change the way you dress, they are wrong for raping and you are wrong for dressing that way. I use to dress un modestely and wonder why men use to approach me, and want to have sex, when I started being shamefaced and dressing modestly I was respected.
 
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