Taken in Hand/Domestic Discipline

[Phillip]

I'm not sure what you're getting at with Lamech, we all know that the idea that Lamech was a murder = polygyny is sinful is completely false, won't explain why here, if it wasn't false though we'd be off-track with this entire ministry. I don't know what point you're trying to make with this, can you clarify?

Sorry @FollowingHim, I was trying to use that as an analogy not to add to the scriptures. I guess I didn’t say it well enough.

Religious people have usd the story of Lamech saying “because of this, he must also be this”. Specifically, because Lamech killed Cain, his marriage of two wives must also be a sin. Adding to the scripture instead of accepting what the scripture says. For this topic, I think it best to use scripture to confirm or correct the topic.

 

[Phillip]

Of course there is something wrong, or she wouldn't have disobeyed. It would be great if people just always obeyed; but they don't, and thats the reality of it.

In a city in the southeast part of my state, a woman came to her pastor to discuss her marriage. Her husband was a deacon in the church. She told her pastor she could no longer submit to her husband. He would bring the dog in and watch while the dog had sex with her. She finally stopped submitting and became disobedient.

You are correct Rockfox, sometimes people just don’t always obey, and that’s the realty of it.

 

[andrew]

At 100 posts maybe we could stop and take stock. Feels like we're about to turn the wheel and start rehashing all the same old stuff. And we're going on and on about abstract principles and forgetting that this thread was started so two people could share reports from their journey.

@Soldier's Psalm and @Cool Wifey Jones, I wish you well. I thank you for sharing your experiences and your point of view with us, and it seems to me that you guys are on the right track based on the results you're both reporting. All the anecdotes we can share here won't change that—examples of brutal or perverse husbands won't prove that what you're doing is wrong, and examples of out-of-control women acting out won't prove that all couples should embrace corporal punishment. All the bible verses we share here won't change that, either—there's no verse that commands husbands to chastise their wives, and no verse that prohibits it, so all arguments for an absolute rule (pro or con) are from silence or from inference. What's important is that you guys figure out what works for you, with open communication and two-way trust and respect facilitating your best efforts to live out the Eph 5 model. Sounds to me like you're figuring that out....

 

[Foxlily]

I have a few tiny points maybe.. I have remained silent through this but..

First, @rockfox cares for my body far better than his own. He sees to my health before his own. Which is an epic frustration for me but only makes me love him the more..

Second, we are all described as 'children of God.' Frankly, I consider myself a babe in Christ there is so much we don't understand and may never.

Finally, the harshest discipline God bestowed upon His children was throwing Adam and Eve out of the garden for disobedience and in that established women's subservience to her husband. Before that, Eve was apparently just supposed to 'know.' but ultimately, He disciplined BOTH Adam AND Eve.. and the serpent for that matter...

Helpful or not I don't know feeding the flame.. hopefully not.

 

[FollowingHim]

Just to add some humour to this difficult subject, I just saw this picture of a headstone:

 

[Pacman]

The entire purpose of human marriage is to reflect “image” Gods relationship with his people. Clearly God lovingly chastises his people when needed. Why is this even a debate?

 

[Shibboleth]

In some cases, taking away the credit card may be more hurtful.

Just a quick note that this concept is at least somewhat along the same lines of Numbers 30, where a father/husband may disallow the oath of a daughter/wife.

 

[andrew]

Why is this even a debate?

To be fair, it is because there are some men and women that give us such horrible examples of how not to do it that it raises legit questions about why do it at all. So like a lot of things, this should (my personal opinion) fall under the heading of "discretion of the husband, subject to oversight by his trusted honor group of other men", tempered by "but in the world we live in today, you'd be a complete fool to try this with any but the most trusted and well-intentioned wife who acknowledges her own need for it, and even then you might end up regretting it (for different reasons)".

 

[andrew]

Guys, I'm trying to put a fork in the overall right/wrong debate here; I think we've said about everything there is to say without going "cumulative", as the lawyers would say, or "redundant" as all the normal people would say. Regardless of what I or anyone else feels about what the general rule should be, or whether there should be a general rule, we're not a disciplinary group here, and each household is going to make up its own mind how this plays out between consenting adults. I admire the tenacity of @Soldier's Psalm and @Cool Wifey Jones in sticking to their original plan (sharing testimony) while the argument rages around them, but perhaps we could give this thread back to them?...

 

[The Revolting Man]

Hey Zec, a friend of mine, in the ministry, told me if you see a verse in the Bible, try and find another verse that backs up the verse you’re reading. @Soldier's Psalm brought out these two scriptures.

Proverbs 3:12
for the LORD disciplines the one He loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.

Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.

The I posted Proverbs 13:24 and Proverbs 23:13-14. In each of these verses, mine and @Soldier's Psalm’s, all four verses talk of disciplining a son while still a child.

Disciplining a daughter or a wife are not mentioned. As I read and studied whether or not polygyny was real for today or not, I studied from Dr Luck. He mentioned the idea of first mention.

One of Dr Luck’s teachings was on Lamech. He explained the argument against multiple wives was that Lamech was a polygynyst. Lamech was a murderer. Since Lamech was a murderer, polygyny is a sin. I won’t take time with additional arguments as I am sure we all know them. If not, it’s time for the reader to study.

Those four verses clearly tell to use corporal punishment on a son, IF NEEDED. I don’t want outside sources thinking we’re stupid with discipline. After four clear verses on discipline, there are no clear verses of using corporal punishment on daughters or wives. In some cases, taking away the credit card may be more hurtful.

My contention is show me the verses to back up your claim. I’ve shown mine, not all of them, never show all the cards in your hand. Discipline is clearly discussed in the Bible. For this discussion, it is a particular type of discipline we’re going over.

To reiterate, the verses I’ve seen and posted discuss a son, a son child. For an opposite point of view, I only ask that a clear scripture verse be used. No analogies, no emotions, and as they used to say in ‘Dragnet’, “Just the facts, ma’am!”

Whether the verses exclude a daughter kr not is irrelevant to my point, what the verses clearly demonstrate is that discipline can be loving and that God definitely disciplines His bride. What you are asking for, a clear verse stating that the discipline of a wife or daughter is self defeating. The immediate reply is, "Show me where it's forbidden." God didn't give us explicit permission to post on forums either. Clearly no one here thinks that is forbidden.
I detect some panic in your arguments. It seems like you are confronting something you don't like and you are unwilling to step off in to the abyss and see where the fall takes you.
In my experience men who fight the total submission of the wife to the husband are really recoiling from what that would mean about their own relationship with their Husband or about the incredible responsibility that now rests on their frail shoulders. I am completely sympathetic to that, however you have to see how your insistence on seeing it specifically commanded is a tacit admission that it's not forbidden. Once we establish that then all that is left to do is help husbands to understand and properly operate in the principle. We can't come in to his home and try to assert authority or make pronouncements that don't come from God.

 

[Cap]

One of the many differences between the Law and Grace crowds. May God prevail.

I for one would like my wife and any future wife to know in my house there will be no such thing as physical displine and any acts of adverse emotions will be first reviewed by God. We are all children of God and deserve respect towards one another.

Luke 18:7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?

 

[andrew]

One of the many differences between the Law and Grace crowds. May God prevail.

If we had some kind of prize for oversimplification of the week, this would be this week's winner.

Reminder (emphasis added):

Guys, I'm trying to put a fork in the overall right/wrong debate here; I think we've said about everything there is to say without going "cumulative", as the lawyers would say, or "redundant" as all the normal people would say. Regardless of what I or anyone else feels about what the general rule should be, or whether there should be a general rule, we're not a disciplinary group here, and each household is going to make up its own mind how this plays out between consenting adults. I admire the tenacity of @Soldier's Psalm and @Cool Wifey Jones in sticking to their original plan (sharing testimony) while the argument rages around them, but perhaps we could give this thread back to them?...

 

[Pacman]

Read Proverbs 19:29 and Proverbs 26:3...

Now read Proverbs 14:1 and Proverbs 9:13

 

[Sophia]

I will not go into details but there was a brief period of time when this sort of thing proved very helpful. It is definitely capable of being both positive and helpful. But this is advanced level stuff and should be approached very carefully.

I am very curious. My journey to polygyny has been a hard way of humbling myself, I always thought a firm hand would've made it easier

 

[Joleneakamama]

Nothing unattractive about a man who draws a hard line! (Especially if he does it on principles) That said my husband doesn't want wives he has to dicipline.

I remember a stage growing up where my folks had stepped back from a lot of directing (I was a pretty good and antisocial teen) and I felt the expectation to make good choices myself. I think for those that remember discipline as a negative, you want to move past that.
I have a cousin that got a lot if positive attention for bad behavior....and I find it interesting that she later rejected her hubby and went for bdsm stuff.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I am very curious. My journey to polygyny has been a hard way of humbling myself, I always thought a firm hand would've made it easier

I only have a very limited experience with this but my observation is that it can be effective when a woman is determined to submit but needs some help.

It something akin to fasting. Deliberately afflicting our flesh can have spiritual benefits.

 

[NBTX11]

I am very curious. My journey to polygyny has been a hard way of humbling myself, I always thought a firm hand would've made it easier

You must willingly submit yourself to him. He can not go inside your brain and make you do something you do not want to do, whether he disciplines you or not. You have free will to submit or not to submit, but you're commanded to.

I don't think domestic discipline is a good idea. It's not commanded and there are other ways to get your point across. For example, if my wife runs up her credit card (she doesn't btw), I can take it away from her and counsel her. I don't need domestic discipline.

 

[Maddog]

When my wife was actively hitting me I was indeed tempted to hit back but did NOT! Verbal permission to hit back would not be allowed to stand in court but hospital records of bruises would surely land you in jail. Not wise in any regard. Her accusations were enough to get a restraining order. Bad. Very Bad. Don't do it.

 

[B4DWrath]

When my wife was actively hitting me I was indeed tempted to hit back but did NOT! Verbal permission to hit back would not be allowed to stand in court but hospital records of bruises would surely land you in jail. Not wise in any regard. Her accusations were enough to get a restraining order. Bad. Very Bad. Don't do it.

But her hitting you didn't warrant a restraining order?

 

[Maddog]

It could have but in Washington state the victim is rarely male according to the Domestic Violence Industry.