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Telegony

rockfox

rockfox

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Kevin said:
I know a married couple who are of 2 different ethinthicies. They took DNA test and she has none of the DNA markers that he has.
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Modern science is quite conceited; often rejecting the wisdom of the past because it's "not scientifically proven"; only to later discover it really was true all along.

There is a lot we don't understand about Telegony yet. But the belief didn't come up out of nowhere and was particularly popular among animal breeders (so not caused by factors like interpersonal sexual hangups).

The one bit of recent science I'm aware of (not mentioned on wikipedia) had to do with fetal DNA circulating in her blood. But likely there is more to it. We are only just starting to understand how DNA works. Until just a year or two ago we still thought most the information encoded in DNA was junk. It wasn't, we just didn't understand it. So too are we just coming to understand epigenetics and the non-DNA information that semen conveys to the offspring.

Telegony is a discredited genetic phenomenon that a previous male may influence the characteristics of offspring subsequently borne by the same female to another male. Although its reality was acknowledged by such authorities as Charles Darwin and Herbert Spencer, it has been met with skepticism because of a lack of understanding of the theoretical basis for telegony. With the discovery of fetal genes in mother's blood, the penetration of somatic cells by sperm, and the ability of RNA to program genome rearrangement, mechanisms might exist for telegony.
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There are other vectors as well they don't mention as well. For example, humans have more bacterial cells than human cells. Technically, we are a bacterial-human symbiote. 'You' are a whole lot more than just your human DNA. The more you kiss and sex up your wife the more you two swap that non-human DNA. This isn't pie in the sky theory, for example changing your gut bacteria can be used to cause/reverse obesity.

In support of Telegony I offer my own anecdotal observations. I have noticed that couples as they age tend to look more and more alike; to the point of looking like opposite sex version of each other. I have also noticed that women who sleep around tend to change in looks and take on looks common to that type; as if the vast random DNA inputs wrecks havoc on their DNA.

Aside from this coming up recently, what does this have to do with Christianity?

1. Don't worship science. It is continually changing, prone to bias and corruption and gets it wrong more often than not.

2. There will be many things we may not understand about the Bible, that modern culture or science rejects, but which are true nonetheless; even if we don't understand why.

3. This possibly helps illuminate why God found it so important that a woman be a virgin at marriage. (Deuteronomy 22:21). The OT was very big on purity; and telegony contaminates the purity of a man's children. However, while the existence of telephony is far from establish; the negative affects of prior sexual partners on her ability to stay in the marriage is (see here and here).
 
From the thread where this started:
Kevin said:
I know a married couple who are of 2 different ethinthicies. They took DNA test and she has none of the DNA markers that he has.
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You wouldn't expect this to show up on a standard DNA test. Any male DNA in her system, whether from her husband or from sons (sons being more likely), would be only a tiny fraction of the DNA in her system. The articles cited above give numbers in the order of 20 out of 10,000 cells containing some male DNA, that sort of thing. This would simply not be detected in a commercial test - most of her cells would still be purely her own DNA even if this was occurring. It's not changing her DNA - nevertheless some male DNA may be also present.

This is a complex issue. Very good point @rockfox regarding the microbiome, I personally think that is likely to influence far more than we realise.
 
FollowingHim said:
You wouldn't expect this to show up on a standard DNA test.
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Yeah thats why I wanted to read the study. I failed to see where it said from everyman she's slept with. Just her sons fetal DNA.

Telopony will make a great case for any man who wishes to shrug off responsibility for his children if it's ever proven. The child's not mine it inherited traits from her former husband who died three years before the child was concieved.

As for a scriptural relevance if this was the case and the basis for Deuteronomy 22:21, which was more than likely talking about a woman who was betrothed and committed adultery, then any non virgin would be banned from marriage.

The book of Genesis describes Jacob inducing goats and sheep in Laban's herds to bear striped and spotted young by placing dark wooden rods with white stripes in their watering troughs.

Evidence of Telegony in scripture, really? So if I pee on a lid of a toilet and woman sits on it and later is impregnated there's a chance I'm the father? What if I'm in a swimming pool with a woman who later becomes pregnant? I'm starting to realize where alot of Puritan traditions come from.

A woman who had a child with a non-Aryan man, it was argued, could never have a "pure" Aryan child again. This idea was adopted by the National Socialist German Workers Party.[11]

So the witnesses to testify to the veracity of this beleif are Greek gods, Gnostics, Nazis and lack of scientific proof. Yeah I think I'll pass on accepting this.

So according to telgony then any man reading this, if your wife was not a virgin your raising someone else's children or at least partly someone else's children.

Hey this will make it easier for women if it's proven. If they sleep with alot of men and get pregnant they can go after all of them for child support.
 
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@Kevin, that's what I'd call jumping to the complete extremes in order to ridicule and disregard something. Of course none of this means that your child is not your child. However, there is real science to show that there are physical effects on a woman at least from bearing male children. Whether these physical effects at a cellular level have any wider implications is unknown.

It's an interesting concept that may have some slight influences on women and children, that could be useful to find out about one day. It's not something to either get enthusiastic about or to dismiss entirely.
 
I'm not saying y'all can't believe it or study it, sometimes is good to know the extremes that are out there as a matter of fact I know if I look back at secular court cases in the early 1900s and modern regional ethnic courts. I can find where the extreme veiw was used. It was brought up because ,I used an example of the extreme veiw being used, to show how that extreme view may be correct. It's not jumping to the extremes since it was intiated off an extreme veiw. It's the point of origin.

Thought the male fetal DNA in the brain of women may or may not eventually lead to be beneficial to understanding a host of diseases that effect the mental cognitive process, and I hope it does, it no way proves there's the possibility of the original statement.
Kevin said:
I think It might be junk science and lump it it with the old beleif that if a pregnant woman has sex or is raped by a who did not impregnated her that some how the second man becomes the child's biological father.
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or
rockfox said:
why God found it so important that a woman be a virgin at marriage. (Deuteronomy 22:21). The OT was very big on purity; and telegony contaminates the purity of a man's children.
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If I was wrong in what was trying to be proven then it is what it is, I was wrong.

FollowingHim said:
Of course none of this means that your child is not your child.
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This doesn't apply to me, but i have seen this used. I had a cousin who was pregnant and raped, it was taken before the Kris and they ruled that this premise was true and that her husband who decided to divorce her didn't have to support his child because the child was no longer his but the child of the Gorgio who raped her.
 
Kevin said:
This doesn't apply to me, but i have seen this used. I had a cousin who was pregnant and raped, it was taken before the Kris and they ruled that this premise was true and that her husband who decided to divorce her didn't have to support his child because the child was no longer his but the child of the Gorgio who raped her.
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Now that is weird and sad.
 
While this needs a LOT more study, in its initial findings we understand why God is so serious about mixing seed.... And, any man who takes a woman that has been previously married (does imho do a good thing) also assumes the liability for all good and bad encounters she had before he joined with her. Sobering.
 
Kevin said:
This doesn't apply to me, but i have seen this used. I had a cousin who was pregnant and raped, it was taken before the Kris and they ruled that this premise was true and that her husband who decided to divorce her didn't have to support his child because the child was no longer his but the child of the Gorgio who raped her.
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The family court system is not known for its adherence to actual evidence, I conclude that the DNA study is false.
 
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Since @Kevin mentioned the story of Laban and the sheep I would like to twist this a little.

This study of DNA is not reporting on physical science but on quatum science.

If a women who has slept with a lot of men holds in her mind the concept of their presents in her life, that will reflect its presents in her DNA. No different than the sheep who saw stripped sticks.

Sin is not what it does to other people, it's about what it does to one's self. What we see and what we do effects who we are.
 
rockfox said:
There is a lot we don't understand about Telegony yet. But the belief didn't come up out of nowhere and was particularly popular among animal breeders
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I wish that I could find the article that I read a number of years ago, but alas I cannot.
I don’t remember the specifics, but they had bred a male zebra to a female in the horse family, might have been a donkey. It didn’t take, so they later put her with a non-zebra male. The offspring had light zebra markings. Something obviously had tainted her eggs.

There have been cases where a Caucasian female who has been with non-Caucasians and then married a Caucasian. They had a child that was obviously not genetically pure to the two parents and made it appear that she had not been faithful, even though she swore that she had been. The belief has been that a female has all of her lifetime supply of eggs at birth, but even this is being challenged as untrue. Did her eggs get corrupted, or did her DNA get corrupted before producing that egg?

Sperm are designed to enter cells, can anyone prove that they will never any cell other than an egg?

I am not sure why you are acting so bothered by this possibility @Kevin. YHWH designed us in very complex ways that are not very well understood, and this particular bit of understanding is something that most scientists and researchers will run from because of the implications.

One of the things that us oldsters remember about the controversies surrounding the beginning of the aids “crisis” was: “You are not just having sex with your partner, you are having sex with everyone that they have ever had sex with.”
“Remaining pure” can have a lot of different meanings.
 
Kevin said:
This doesn't apply to me, but i have seen this used. I had a cousin who was pregnant and raped, it was taken before the Kris and they ruled that this premise was true and that her husband who decided to divorce her didn't have to support his child because the child was no longer his but the child of the Gorgio who raped her.
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That’s ugly if the pregnancy was not a direct result of the semen implanted during the rape.
 
Kevin said:
It's not jumping to the extremes since it was intiated off an extreme veiw. It's the point of origin.
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No it wasn't. Livestock breeders going back centuries believed in Telegony. Long before the NAZI's marched across Europe. This is nothing but attempted guilt by association. They didn't care about human racial differences; they cared whether or not the expensive cow they bought would breed true. They cared that the sow they bought would throw good porkers and not poor growing, mean striped things.

Forced to choose between biased science that ignores non-PC truths and the accumulated experience of a thousand years of Englishmen avoiding starvation; I choose the later.

steve said:
The offspring had light zebra markings. Something obviously had tainted her eggs.
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I've heard similar stories long ago amoung livestock breeders. But the tainted eggs part is key. A generic DNA or blood test might not pick anything up. It's the DNA that is in the eggs that matters. And considering one of the above studies referenced semen being able to enter into cells; it is conceivable that excess semen eventually tries to modify the DNA of unreleased embryos or the ovaries. Call it Plan B (no pun intended). Cuckoo by DNA; we see it as a genetically encoded strategy in birds; why not at the cellular level as well?

Cap said:
If a women who has slept with a lot of men holds in her mind the concept of their presents in her life, that will reflect its presents in her DNA. No different than the sheep who saw stripped sticks.
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So you're saying the mental image of the sticks is what triggered it? Fascinating, I never picked up on that. Clearly something is going on in that story, something Jacob knew would work and which is not explained by modern genetics. However I did read of a study some time ago in cattle that showed brood cows bred by multiple bulls would somehow select internally which semen they bred to; biasing towards more fit bulls. But I can't remember how they knew that or if the authors figured out the method. But that suggests the start of how it worked at the other end.
 
thanks FH2

FollowingHim2 said:
These are two links that were in the Facebook discussion. Not sure if they're helpful, and this was 3 years ago, but here you go.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/02/baby-looks-like-ex-research?CMP=share_btn_fb
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This would be stronger if it wasn't just based on a statistical correlation of size. Lot of room for math errors there. However fruit flies have a very simply genome and rapid lifecycle. If they keep studying they have a chance of figuring this out.

Interesting to see that the article spent more time justifying why we should feel comfortable with this truth than on covering the science. They'd rather justify bad behavior than teach people to repent and avoid it. Expect to see more of this, there is an increasing push in the media to normalize cuckoldry.
 
I want to apologize if I let personal feelings about the subject justify me being disrespectful it really wasn't my intent.
 
FollowingHim2 said:
Was it the family court? Kevin said they went before the Kris. I don't know what that is, is it some sort of judge?
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Council of Romani Elders.
 
rockfox said:
they cared whether or not the expensive cow they bought would breed true. They cared that the sow they bought would throw good porkers and not poor growing, mean striped things.
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So did I when I was breeding our goats, chickens, rabbits, and cows. I selected the ones with the best traits and bred them. The ones that bred the best kept breeding the ones that didn't ended up as someone's dinner. I bred goats that were good milk goats by selecting the best milk producers with smaller less fruitful males so that they would drop to one kid in stead of the average 2, I'd breed the larger males and females to get meat goats, and the most fertile until I had a line that dropped 3 kids in comparison to the average 2 as breeding goats to beef up my numbers if I needed them to, or to sell to market. That's selective breeding. Breeding true comes from controlling the line. If a accident happens and a bad match happens between an established line and a wretch you cull the kids and the wretch. I have never seen it cause a female of a well tended line to all of a sudden start throwing wretchs from that point on.
 
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