Meat The "Golden Calf" is SO 'yesterday'

[steve]

It’s easy to denigrate those who believe deeply in what they have discovered in walking their walk, but if you don’t believe that what you believe is better than other beliefs, what good are your beliefs? Are they worth fighting and dying for? Why not?
But hey, if a man is teaching something a bit too far from the mainstream, he is obviously a cult leader. Right?

Granted, there is a big difference between being adamant about your beliefs and being a jerk about them.

 

[Mark C]

Ummm, this whole concept of a whore church, is unbiblical.

Not according to the Author, through at least two witnesses. (And, hopefully, almost anyone here can tell you where they are.) But the stories are in Jeremiah 3, and Ezekiel 23, for starters.

What's "unbiblical" is the whoring. For which BOTH whoring wives were "put away." And remain in exile still.

No one is claiming that it [Sun-day] has anything to do with a sun god.

 

[MeganC]

Sunday - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Etymology:

The name "Sunday", the day of the Sun, is derived from Hellenistic astrology, where the seven planets, known in English as Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, the Sun, Venus, Mercury and the Moon, each had an hour of the day assigned to them, and the planet which was regent during the first hour of any day of the week gave its name to that day. During the 1st and 2nd centuries, the week of seven days was introduced into Rome from Egypt, and the Roman names of the planets were given to each successive day.

Germanic peoples seem to have adopted the week as a division of time from the Romans, but they changed the Roman names into those of corresponding Teutonic deities. Hence, the dies Solis became Sunday (German, Sonntag).

The English noun Sunday derived sometime before 1250 from sunedai, which itself developed from Old English (before 700) Sunnandæg (literally meaning "sun's day"), which is cognate to other Germanic languages, including Old Frisian sunnandei, Old Saxon sunnundag, Middle Dutch sonnendach (modern Dutch zondag), Old High German sunnun tag (modern German Sonntag), and Old Norse sunnudagr (Danish and Norwegian søndag, Icelandic sunnudagur and Swedish söndag). The Germanic term is a Germanic interpretation of Latin dies solis ("day of the sun"), which is a translation of the ancient Greek Ἥλίου ημέρα" (Hēlíou hēméra).[6]

 

[Mark C]

Gee, some folks really do LOVE Wikipedia. When it comes to Scripture, and our faith, I guess I stand corrected.

[But it still has little to do with the atbash!]

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

It’s easy to denigrate those who believe deeply in what they have discovered in walking their walk, but if you don’t believe that what you believe is better than other beliefs, what good are your beliefs? Are they worth fighting and dying for? Why not?
But hey, if a man is teaching something a bit too far from the mainstream, he is obviously a cult leader. Right?

He is if he is preaching his beliefs to the exclusion of all others.

Granted, there is a big difference between being adamant about your beliefs and being a jerk about them.

I would rather we not have this discussion at all, but this debate, unlike the TO debate, has not been taken off the table yet, as far as I understand, from my attempts to point out the usual suspects who like to bring up these divisive topics.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Gee, some folks really do LOVE Wikipedia. When it comes to Scripture, and our faith, I guess I stand corrected.

[But it still has little to do with the atbash!]

Well considering the fact that there is no mention of a Sunday in the Scripture, well researched and well-cited articles are all we have. Now of couse since you disagree with Wikipedia, as do we all to some extent, the issue is not whether Wikipedia is always reliable, but rather, whether the sources cited in those particular articles are reliable. You have chosen rather to bash a tool, rather than the substance that is presented in that tool.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Not according to the Author, through at least two witnesses. (And, hopefully, almost anyone here can tell you where they are.) But the stories are in Jeremiah 3, and Ezekiel 23, for starters.

What's "unbiblical" is the whoring. For which BOTH whoring wives were "put away." And remain in exile still.

The only whore found there in the two passages that you cite, are the nations of Israel and Judah. No mention of the church is found there! Nice try.

 

[FollowingHim]

He is [a cult leader] if he is preaching his beliefs to the exclusion of all others.

Given every single preacher preaches his own beliefs and not those of others, that insanely broad definition would make every preacher a cult leader.

 

[steve]

Given every single preacher preaches his own beliefs and not those of others, that insanely broad definition would make every preacher a cult leader.

Including Yeshua himself.

 

[Mark C]

I would rather we not have this discussion at all, but this debate, unlike the TO debate, has not been taken off the table yet, as far as I understand, from my attempts to point out the usual suspects who like to bring up these divisive topics.

You're not having a 'discussion' - you're trying to short-circuit one.

And it's obvious you haven't even bothered to do so in the context of the TOPIC. I honestly don't think you even know what it was.

(Is that "cult leader" behavior?)

 

[Mark C]

The only whore found there in the two passages that you cite, are the nations of Israel and Judah. No mention of the church is found there! Nice try.

And are you really THAT ignorant of Scripture, AND 'whore church doctrine'?

Which of those claims to be "universal", and the rightful heir of the promises of "Israel"?

But it still isn't the actual topic - just another attempt to short-circuit.

Nice try. (Actually, NO. It's a cheap shot.)

 

[Mark C]

Well considering the fact that there is no mention of a Sunday in the Scripture, well researched and well-cited articles are all we have.

Pitiful and incendiary as this lame attempt to AGAIN short-circuit actual midrash is, it's just too $#@!d to ignore:

SCRIPTURE is all you NEED!!!

Because He tells you over and over, in "red flashing lights," even, what the Truth is.

(And if you admit there's 'no mention' of a replacement day instead of what He said to set apart "forever" - that should be another clue.)

However, this derail attempt does offer one genuine point of reflection:

I intended to discuss the role, and the indictment, of Aaron for his having "made the [golden calf]." (Exodus 32:35) As I pointed out from Scripture in the midrash, had not Moses intervened, Aaron would not have survived his error.

Was he 'coerced'? Did he lie? There is a case to be made for those possibilities, and the converse, in the text. But he was cited, and did survive. Evidently he also learned a vital lesson.

It is a lesson that was preserved for us through Scripture, and serves as one of the most undeniably dramatic 'turning points' in human history.

And today, I think it is obvious that we have 'golden calves' (including the advent of walking, talking AI improvements) that arguably exceed what the mixed multitude were very nearly incinerated for.

And priests, pastors, preachers, and pimps abound - that make Aaron at his worst look like an anointed saint.

Do we follow them? Do we expose them? Do we keep silent? THAT was the point of discussion I hoped to have with followers of the Messiah who don't seek instead to emulate them.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

And are you really THAT ignorant of Scripture, AND 'whore church doctrine'?

There is no whore church. The Whores mentioned in Scripture, are Israel, Judah, and Babylon. Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against them.

Given every single preacher preaches his own beliefs and not those of others, that insanely broad definition would make every preacher a cult leader.

Not every preacher teaches that those who disagree with them on trivial issues, are part of a so-called "Whore church", whatever that is supposed to be. This "Whore church concept DID originate with cult groups, and to deny this is plain ignorance of the facts!

Which of those claims to be "universal", and the rightful heir of the promises of "Israel"?

A chuirch is a congregation of people, not a secretive leadership cabal.

But it still isn't the actual topic - just another attempt to short-circuit.

Nice try. (Actually, NO. It's a cheap shot.)

No! You want to interpret calf worship rather broadly, and lump in the practice of worshipping the one true Yahweh on the first day of the week, as if it were some form of idol worship, and I resent it, because it is nothing short of slander. You ought to be ashamed of yourself!

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Do we follow them? Do we expose them? Do we keep silent? THAT was the point of discussion I hoped to have with followers of the Messiah who don't seek instead to emulate them.

Look! If you want to criticize prosperity preachers, I am right there with you. I have known many good pastors who preach in their pulpits faithfully every Sunday morning, and their message is uncompromising, as it comes from the Word of God, with exception of course to this made up "sin of polygamy". We chew the meat and spit out the bones. I grew up in the "Gothard" cult, and he had a lot of good information about conflict resolution and character building, but he also was a bit legalistic and had sexual immorality issues, that would have been resolved if he had truly understood Paul's teaching on marriage. No one is perfect, and we do what we can to show them the truth, but we have to choose wisely which issues are of greater importance, and that requires a good bit of discernment. Can you influence more by being an insider or an outsider?

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Including Yeshua himself.

Well Yeshua backed up His claims with His miracles, those voices that thundered from heaven, a transfiguration, and that thing that we call, the Resurrection. Cult leaders appropriate to themselves the authority that only Jesus Christ should have, often placing their teachings above the actual teachings of Christ.

 

[steve]

Well Yeshua backed up His claims with His miracles, those voices that thundered from heaven, a transfiguration, and that thing that we call, the Resurrection. Cult leaders appropriate to themselves the authority that only Jesus Christ should have, often placing their teachings above the actual teachings of Christ.

You were the one who created the definition and left it broad enough to include Yeshua.

Just sayin.

The thing is, labeling someone a cult leader is a lazy way to win in a discussion where one runs out of facts.

 

[Mark C]

No one is perfect, and we do what we can to show them the truth, but we have to choose wisely which issues are of greater importance, and that requires a good bit of discernment. Can you influence more by being an insider or an outsider?

I know the answer - but the question clarifies the situation:

You didn't LISTEN to the 'sermon' (from Sabbath morning) did you?

 

[Mark C]

I have known many good pastors who preach in their pulpits faithfully every Sunday morning, and their message is uncompromising, as it comes from the Word of God, with exception of course to this made up "sin of polygamy".

And a whole bunch MORE made up crap than you are willing to admit, from the Easter Bunny to the Sacrament of Abortion and Gay Pride (some are simply silent, of course - like Aaron, but you didn't listen to that part.)

 

[Mark C]

There is no whore church.

If you literally can't understand one of the most potent, and prevalent, metaphors in all of Scripture, which is at the very FOUNDATION of "ani YHVH," and why "you shall have no other gods before My face," there really is no point in arguing.

 

[Mark C]

You want to interpret calf worship rather broadly, and lump in the practice of worshipping the one true Yahweh on the first day of the week, as if it were some form of idol worship, and I resent it, because it is nothing short of slander. You ought to be ashamed of yourself!

One more time:

You don't know WHAT "I want." You don't even know what I put together in that link above. You didn't listen to it!!!! You just came into a thread here in the ghetto and started firebombing.

I 'resent' you self-righteous claims, hmmm...could it be?...

...appropriate to themselves the authority that only Jesus Christ should have, often placing their teachings above the actual teachings of Christ...

...you said it.


How do you claim to even know?