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The Monogamy Pledge

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This thread holds some very interesting comments to say the least coming from quite a range of vantage points.

Back about 17 years ago, Elohim laid down a prominent "wisdom-marker" in my life with Ecc. 7:18...

At the time I was learning some powerful truths relating to living by Faith and starting to have a discomfort with perhaps stepping into the extremes that I had observed in the lives of others. The translation of the verse that I had at the time ended with these words "a wise man will avoid all extremes"

The Holy Spirit spoke to me in my heart as a small river of flowing thought the following...

A wise man will avoid all extremes, even the extreme of going to the extreme avoiding extremes. Is not a mere walk, a constant state of imbalance. If you fear one step the next will never follow.

I really like "The Scriptures" translation of this verse...

"It is good that you should take hold of this, and also not withhold your hand from the other. For he who fears Elohim comes forth with all of them."

All too often our "balance" can rather be uniform weakness in all areas and the pursuit of "balance" a settling into the calm "eye" of ones comfort zone thus creating "peace from the storm" of truth.

I believe that "monogamy-insistent" wives' "natural" objections to YHWH's intentions for marriage are truly natural but only in the sense that they are the typical behavioral outworkings in the context of the complex labyrinth of inculturated strongholds. Selah.

Note: Not to imply that circumstantial singular marriage is not a fully sanctioned option in that broader intention.

It is not only a good idea but really quite vital that we allow and actively desire (husbands also in all areas of truth) the strongholds of the enemy to be torn down. When significant progress is made in the uprooting of lies and effective replacement of the truth, attitudes truly change from the very depths and emotions follow quite predictably.

This is the spectrum of response in my view... (practically though perhaps not technically accurate)

Active Rebellion = outward acts of resistance and inward distrust and anger
Passive Resistance = outward submission and inward resistance
Submission = outward alignment and inward disagreement
Alignment = outward unity and inward questions
Unity = outward unity and inward unity

(At least this is the understanding that I received relating to the matter, perhaps you see in another way.)

The submission level is a dangerous place to be for it is often actually just passive resistance that is putting on a good show or at least allows for the festering of internal discontent if commitment wanes or is frustrated. In my view, a husband should not "go for" submission but true unity with his wife, lest the relational foundation provide place for the enemy.

Please don't interpret any of the above as my recommending allowing the wife to lead. When you allow that in a marriage, by law of necessity, deceiving and manipulative spirits will be attracted to the vacuum created by the role disparity. Choosing to slow down your rate of travel or even taking a break in sensitivity to others does not automatically imply abdication of leadership.

Think Jacob and his family and flocks. Ecc. 7:18 He lead his family and was mindful of the dangers of "driving then hard". Gen. 33:13-14

Sincerely,

Curtis
 
Read the book of Esther and the account of when David listened to Abigail...two times that God used women powerfully. Yes a man should lead but your wife was given to you as a help meet...taken from the side not the foot or head.....She has valueable insight...at least mine does!! I know guys lose their first wife trying to get the second....not wise in my way of thinking.

Mr Kscouple
 
Thanks to all for your input!

I so appreciate that you've all taken the time to share your hearts and learned wisdom over the years. I do believe we all have made some good & Godly points to sharpen and challenge one another with. ;) We are all important members of the body of Christ, each with our very own special & unique giftings that Yeshua has blessed us with. With these special giftings it is important that we share them with our brothers & sisters in Christ, as this helps us all to bless, encourage and grow our members of the church (God's family) and those lost into God's presence and into His will. Again please forgive me if I've offended anyone here and for all of my overly detailed questioning! :D

I'd just like to take a moment to personally thank both kscouple and Curtis for your input on this topic as well. It seems as though you explained my very thoughts much better and in a quicker manner than I have, as I do tend to be long winded! :p Thanks again for all of the valuable back & forth from everyone who participated with this topic. So for me, this topic comes to an end as we all now seem to know where each of us stand on the subject. I do look forward to sharing, learning, getting to know one another better, and gleaning new Godly insights as we strive to follow Yeshua on the path that He has placed each of us on. :D God be with thee and Bless thee.

Faithful (Not Perfect) Servant

I PRAY THAT I BE NOT A HINDRANCE!
I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST JESUS, WHO STRENGTHENS ME! :)
 
SweetLissa,

You raise some good points. I'll share my analysis of the issue. If you would like to respond, I'd appreciate your comments as always.

I'll respond to your earlier point by posing three questions:
1. Assume you were free to marry and you were building a relationship with a man. As your heart responded in love to the developing relationship, you naturally started to think about marriage. After subtly bringing up the subject in the due course of time, he flatly replied, "You know, I really feel reluctant to marry you. In fact, I find the very idea repulsive to my core." Would you pursue marriage to this man?
2. Again, being free to marry, you become engaged to a wonderful man. As the wedding approaches, you have a quiet and romantic dinner together enjoying the sunset on a deserted and picturesque seashore. As you share in each other's innermost thoughts, he admits, "Honey, I'm having second thoughts about marrying you. I just don't think I want to go forward with our plans." Would you continue to plan the wedding?
3. Assume you married a wonderful husband and a year later you face a time of difficulty and trial. He wonders out loud whether marrying you was the best idea. Would you stay with him?

These parallel this discussion and your questions to me, although somewhat imperfectly. If I were to advise you in these hypothetical situations, I'd say that in situation 3 that you made a commitment and should honor it. Unquestionably, your duty would be to stay with your husband and try to work things out. However, in situations 1 and 2, I'd tell you that unless you were 100% sure that God Himself had commanded you to marry the man, you had better run for the hills! At the very least, you should wait, pray, and seek godly counsel.

In studying polygamy, I've found that it can be a tremendous blessing to a family and a wonderful option. I have unfortunately also met men who have turned the truth about polygamy into a hideous idol, just as surely as most have done with enforced traditional monogamy. They do not strike me as the type of men who are listening to God, rather they come off as arrogant, insensitive, and frankly lucky to have one wife (much less pursue more). I have no desire to lose sight of what's important and become one of those men. Studying polygamy has unquestionably made me a stronger leader, more sensitive husband, and more productive as a man. I've never felt like I had a clearer idea of what a godly man should be.

I have come to consider polygamy to be much like a fruit tree in the garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were free to taste of them all but one. However, God didn't force them to eat any of the fruits! If they didn't like mangoes, for example, they could leave them on the trees and take a stroll over to the banana trees. Considering that in the 1600 year history of the Bible only two men that I can think of (Joseph and Hosea) were called by God to marry, I think I'd be safe in assuming that such commands from God are rare. In other words, He leads all toward paths of righteousness, but He gives us choices too.

Some men are so convinced that they are supposed to live polygamy that they try to badger their wife into it. Sometimes the wife submits to his leadership and goes through the motions, but is not really for it. The new woman comes in, and since the first wife's heart wasn't in it, she passively undermines the marriage either by neglect or through her silent mourning for her former relationship. The minute any kind of trouble hits, it's instantly the husband's or the new wife's fault. The former state of unity is a thing of the past. Strife and division are the rule. I hope I'm not the only one who sees a big red sign that screams, "Misery Ahead!" The fact that the family would almost certainly face some measure of social ostracism only underscores the point that unity is critical to its success. Men, you won't get away with manipulating your wife into something she never wanted. Your family will have to pay for it somehow and in more ways than you'd ever want them to.

Let me put it another way, there have been times when I've had to lead my family and make some tough choices. I will tell you right now that as a man sometimes leading the household is no fun. It's not easy having to be the point man and take the responsibility before God for the way things work out in the home. It's even more exhausting and less fulfilling when my wife's heart is not in it and it's all on me. So yes, in this case I'd gladly wait 1 year...10 years...indeed forever in my happy marriage rather than be subjected to a lifetime of unnecessary heartache.

Why? A man's role is to foster an environment where his family can reflect Christ's love and character and where righteous children can be raised. A home full of undercurrents, drama, and fleshly selfishness (from husband and/or wife) undermines this goal. Now, I think it is plain that anyone who receives the truth of polygamy (or any other biblical truth) is obligated to promote it at appropriate times. However, are all called to live it? Some sure, but certainly not all. How would a man truly know? God gives each of us a conscience and a measure of wisdom. He opens some doors and closes others. The wisdom He's given me tells me that plural marriage is best pursued only if all freely desire the arrangement with joy and love in their hearts.
 
Considering that in the 1600 year history of the Bible only two men that I can think of (Joseph and Hosea) were called by God to marry, I think I'd be safe in assuming that such commands from God are rare.
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God told them to be fruitfull and multiply. the jews understood and obeyed without being nagged by Him to marry. your assumption is not valid

if i brought home a woman that i felt God had asked me to marry i am confident that my wife would procede to make the woman feel loved and accepted, even if the woman was "difficult", yes, my wife IS that much of a saint ;)

hold on now,
if my wife brought home a "difficult" woman who was not at all my type and informed me the God had directed her to do this and that i was to marry her, i would get on my knees and seek Him out in the matter (knowing that there is a good chance that she heard correctly). gulp

we are bought with a price, friends. we are not our own.
we are not here to do what we think is best
 
Joe88,
In a perfect world I can see what you are saying. However, we are not from a perfect world and we are not perfect people. Yes, everyone makes mistakes.

Here is a hypothetical for you, that I mentioned earlier and only TCR had the guts to answer.

What happens if a husband and wife agree to PM. They work together to build a family and have a woman join their family as a wife. What happens when the first wife suddenly finds her reluctant heart. Here committments have been made. Does the reluctance of the first wife still have an effect? What happens, does the second wife suddenly become nothing?

We all came to this understanding in different fashions. We all got here and now we are trying to make sure that PM is done right from here forward. But what happens when a man comes to you for counsel and gives you a scenario that is less than perfect and he wants to make the best of it.

For instance, what happens in the case of a family with one wife & one husband and the husband has an affair. The woman from the affair has a child. What happens now? Does he leave one family for the other? In this scenario, the only way to have a happy ending is for the first wife to submit to the husband's authority, trusting that God knows what He is doing and trusting that God is caring for them all.

It is a huge leap of faith. But aren't we asked to take leaps of faith constantly in our Christian walk? Why should we pull back on this leap of faith? Because it is weird? Because our family and friends might not approve? Because it feels icky?

When I was asked to be second wife to my husband, we didn't wait for it to be perfect. Relationships rarely are. I worked on my friendship with T, I worked on my marriage with daPastor, we worked our our family. If we wait till it is perfect, we will never do anything. Just like waiting till we can afford to have a child.

Yes, we must be compassionate, and I have never said anything else. But at some point we have to strike a balance between God's will and our wive's wills.

Of course you men should listen to your wives and try to use their wisdom when making decisions. But when the chips are down, it is up to the husband to make the decision and by marrying him, we have chosen to let him lead us, no matter where that leads.

SweetLissa
 
I was just talking to my hubby about this thread and we had a great discussion. In any other situation of a marriage, if a woman disagrees with her husband and the husband feels that is his calling or he is being led by God to do that thing, the wife will be told that she needs to submit to her husband because that is what the bible says we are to do. In every circumstance (unless he wants her to sin) that is what is told by Christian counselors throughout every walk of Christian life. (okay maybe not some but you know what I mean.) Except when you talk about plural marriage.

Here is what I hear you men saying:

My wife is to submit to me in everything but plural marriage.

If my husband came to me tomorrow and said that it was time to take on another wife and I did not agree with him, then I would take the opportunity to tell him my feelings and why I didn't believe it was time. But after that, if he thought about my arguments and still believed that it was what he was supposed to do, we would agree to do it. Because it is my husband's job to lead our family and it is my job to follow.

Yes, I agree that a woman should have a chance to learn and grow into the idea. That is the kind thing to do and the wise thing to do. But to let your wife tell you when you can fulfill God's design for you is to put her in a place of worship.

And Joe88 as the second wife in my family, I will tell you that when if I were starting out looking for a family, I would want to know the family very well. In my experience the relationship with the 2nd wife can be a big factor in the first wife's acceptance. If I am a person that this woman can trust and respect then the chances are that she will accept me.

I have a friend who accepts the idea of plural marriage. She just has trouble getting to the place of seeing it become a real relationship because of all the unknowns. So I asked her, if it were me that were going to be your sister/wife how would you feel? She says that she would be much happier with that because of the close friendship we have. Because we have grown to love and respect each other, it is much easier for her to cope with the idea of me than the unknown somebody.

If you read most of my posts you will find that I am about relationships and warm fuzzies. Just like a man doesn't marry a woman just because she fits some list of things that he desires, no family should look at an additional wife as a list of requirements. It is about RELATIONSHIPS. There are so many facets to a plural marriage that it takes a lifetime to understand them all.

If a man truly has his wife's best interests, once he has decided to proceed with plural marriage he will take time to nurture the sister relationship between the women rather than worrying about the romantic relationship for himself. As T says, men can always fall in love. Women are more complicated. And ultimately we will spend more time together than either of us will with him. So it is imperative that the women trust each other and respect each other. Deep friendship is desired. Then, when the time comes for intimacy with the husband, the wives won't have nearly the jealousy as they would with someone they don't know well.

You wouldn't leave your child with a stranger, right? Well, a woman wants to know that the woman she entrusts her husband to is someone that is trustworthy. This relationship takes time to build but while it is building the wife is growing to the place of acceptance and even embracing the future with this sister/wife at her side.

SweetLissa
 
Lissa,

It took a lot of guts to say what you just said, but what you said is true. Often, we as men will cop out on plural marriage.

Blessings,

Doc
 
I am sharing this for shock effect - hopefully to encourage us to dig into the Scriptures for all of our answers!

I am of the opinion that it is a cop out by men to say that they are “called” by God to marry more than one wife. This is their way of attempting to get their wife/wives on board with taking on another wife. On the other hand, I would suggest that “Adam” has the right to chose whom he will marry, provided he uses basic Biblical principles to establish the marriage (BTW, juding other believers by personal convictions as opposed to the clear teaching of Scripture is sin! Jesus tells us to judge with "righteous judgment". We are to judge based upon our personal, nor cultural "traditions").

Here is the raw truth: There isn’t a single Scripture that encourages, advocates, or exhorts the head of a household to ask his wife for permission to marry another wife. Why? Because it would undermine the principles of headship throughout Scripture. You see, we have clear passages that exhort a wife to be submissive to her husband’s leadership. Hermeneutically speaking, we are to embrace truth based on what is clear in Scripture, not what is missing from Scripture - even if we feel uncomfortable with the clear truth presented! I can hear the moaning now! The fact is, the modern books and seminars concerning Christian marriage are mixed heavily with the leaven of humanism. I will ask you: Are there any passages throughout the Old and New Testament that exhorts the head of the household to ask the wife for permission about anything? (I do remember Adam listening to Eve!)

(For the record: I am not advocating a harsh, dictatorial, uncaring head of the household. I truly believe in Servant Leadership. Servant leadership will make decisions that will serve the family’s best interest, while remaining focused on the purposes of God for that individual family. A Servant Leader will not allow his family to derail him from accomplishing the will of God for that family. However, Servant Leadership means that I, as the head of my house, am to lead my family to a place that allows God’s Kingdom to rule in our home [to include plural marriage in some cases]. Sometimes this means making hard choices, that may cause the “death of self” to take place in the family [The Servant Leadership of Christ led the disciples to their death! History tells us that all of the original disciples (except for Judas Iscariat) died a martyrs death but Apostle John. Would anyone of us accuse Jesus of not loving His Church!?]. All I am trying to do is point out a flaw in how we are approaching the subject [since we are claiming that God’s Word is what we desire to follow]. I, for one, believe that the Bible is the final authority for all faith and practice. The raw truth of the matter is that because we as believers have allowed our culture to define our Christianity, to include marriage, we experience some persecution. Why? Because we dare to finally take a stand on one more Scriptural truth - Biblical Marriage! Taking this to another level then, what does it truly mean to love our wives as Christ loved the church? Does this mean we are to allow our wives to decide on the direction of the family? Perhaps I am making a mistake in my reading, but I do not recall a single incident where the disciples talked Jesus into doing anything! Where did we get this idea? If it isn’t in Scripture, where did it come from? Where did Jesus allow the Disciples to lead Him!? Do we teach that the Sheep are to lead the Shepherd? Who came up with this unbiblical idea that loving our wives means we must gain their permission to marry another wife? Loving our wives means that we pursue the vision God gave us for our family [based upon allowing His Kingdom to rule in our lives – to include marriage], even if our wives struggle with our decisions. On the other hand, this does not mean we should be calloused, insensitive, and uncaring about their concerns. Scripture tells us to dwell with them with understanding, and give them honour, and this is what Christ did with His disciples, but none the less, the vision of Christ prevailed!) Since when is loving our wives means leading them into places where everything is easy?

An analogy that may help us all see the bigger picture is comparing serious missionary work with plural marriage. Although all analogies are incomplete, here are some comparisons for us to think about:
ONE
Basic Principle for Missions: Go into the entire world and preach the gospel.
Basic Principle for Marriage: It is not good for man to be alone.
TWO
Basic Desire for Missions: I want to preach the Gospel in a foreign country.
Basic Desire for Marriage: I want to be married.
THREE
Basic Covenant for Missions: I have been ordained.
Basic Covenant for Marriage: I am married.
FOUR
Passion for Missions: I desire to go to the back woods of Nigeria to a mission outpost
Passion for Marriage: I desire to have another wife.
FIVE
Wife Input: I am not interested in being a missionary and living like that.
Wife Input: I am not interested in being in a plural marriage and living like that.
SIX
Husband Response Miss: Honey, I love you. Let us pray about it, as well as look to the Scriptures regarding missions.
Husband Response Marr: Honey, I love you. Let us pray about it, as well as look to the Scriptures.
SEVEN
Wife after Time (miss): I am not sure I really want to do this, but I believe you are following God and leading us in the right direction.
Wife after Time (marr): I am not sure I really want to do this, but I believe you are following God and leading us in the right direction.
EIGHT
Wife after Choosing Missions: I just seemed to submit to you, but I really wasn’t interested in this missionary work (The outpost is dirty, dusty, and doesn’t have many modern conveniences. Now, since his wife’s heart wasn’t truly in it, she passively undermines the mission by either neglect or through her silent mourning for her life back in the United States. The minute any trouble hits, it’s instantly the husband’s fault for “dragging” her to the mission field. The former life in the States is the thing of the past. Rebellion, anger and resentment rule). This “potentially” spells a lifetime of misery. I say potentially, because it depends if the wife is a true believer.
Wife after Choosing Marriages: I just seemed to submit to you, but I really wasn’t interested in this plural marriage stuff (The former state of unity is a thing of the past. Strife and division are the rule. The former life is a thing of the past). This “potentially” spells a lifetime of misery. I say potentially, because it depends if the wife is a true believer.

From my perspective, it is an anti-Scriptural position to suggest “misery”, or “the family will pay” for embracing plural marriage. If there is misery, it isn’t because the man married another wife (I demonstrated in one example how there are may be a host of other situations that can end up with the same results). That is his choice! It is because the women he married are not doing what Scripture suggests when confronted with a situation that they deem less than desirable (not all believe plural marriage is less than desirable, for that matter). They are called to repent of being un-submitted, self pity, strife, anger, jealousy, etc... and deny self, take up their cross, and trust the Lord for the situation they are in – just like a host of other situations they may find themselves in during this lifetime! Each person is then to practice all the "one anothers" of Scripture, in order for others to recognize that they are truly followers of Christ which are known by their love!

On the other hand, lest people misunderstand what I am writing, I advocate being sensitive, caring, and understanding of one's wife. I believe that when husbands are truly caring they will listen to their wives concerns. In fact, since God speaks through others, He will use our wives to speak to us at times. I also believe that when taking on another wife it is helpful to get the insights of the wife/wives you may presently have, for they will pick up on things that you as the husband may have missed. However, this is a Godly man attempting to gain some practical wisdom by listening to his wife.

It should be noted that even if the husband goes against what his wife is suggesting, this does not necessarily mean he was wrong by going forward. On the other hand, even if the wife is 100% on board, this does not guarantee marital bliss either. It could be hell on earth until all parties truly repent and decide to make following Christ the first priority. There are no guarantees in relationships!!!
 
Steve,
You seem to be attacking a point I never made. You reminded us of God's command to be fruitful and multiply (like the monogamist Duggar family with 19 kids perhaps?), and then said that God didn't bother to nag people to get married. Somehow that contradicts my observation that direct commands from God to marry are rare, but maybe you could clarify how. Besides, that command is a general one, since God loved many righteous men who had relatively small or no families (eg righteous monogamists Noah, his sons, Job, eunichs Daniel, Shadrach, Mishach, Abednego, and unmarried Paul the Apostle, to name a few). My point was that we don't find many times in Scripture where God directly said to a specific person, "Listen, I know you really don't like this person, but go marry her anyway." Even if you brought up Levirate marriage, it misses the larger point I was making that God allows us to make choices and that we should strive to make wise ones, according to the dictates of His Holy Word. If you know for sure that God has commanded you to do something, then by all means you'd better follow Him. On the other hand, I hope you're also testing the spirits as the Scriptures say to do. I've heard people say "God told me such and such" and then it didn't come to pass...

SweetLissa,
Thank you for responding. I agree that this is an interesting and important discussion. I did briefly give my answer to the question you posed in my earlier post (the 3rd scenario), so perhaps we should go into more depth here.

If a marriage has taken place, God's Word clearly indicates that it is meant to be a lifelong union. I would consider that to be far too late for second thoughts. The second wife is a legitimate wife who deserves the same commitment and security as the first wife. I would advise a husband and the wives to pray and fight for their marriage in every way possible so that no shame is brought on the name of Christ. That would be one clear example where it would be necessary for the man to expect his wives to follow his lead in preserving the family. The first wife in this case should submit to her husband from her heart and work on strengthening the bonds of love between all parties.

Wanting to send out the 2nd wife is tantamount to divorce and is no small thing. A parallel biblical case would be the marriage of Abraham, Sarah and Hagar. God sent Hagar back to the family the first time, but sent her out the second time.

The second hypothetical is incredibly thorny. I've heard (as I'm sure you have heard) of some who've had this happen in their lives. Without exception, the results were ugly. Three cases come to mind:
  • One family I read about transitioned into a plural marriage after the husband's affair, and the first wife reluctantly sanctioned it, but it eventually ended when the 2nd wife convinced the husband to kick out the first wife.
  • I made friends with another woman who actually offered polygamy to her husband, but the new woman wanted to have the husband to herself and my friend was left out in the cold. I asked my friend what would prompt her to suggest polygamy since that's not really a common response. It turned out that my friend's mother actually became a 2nd wife as a result of an affair. A couple of years later after my friend's divorce, she told me that her father's first wife and her children were constantly hateful to his 2nd wife (my friend's mother) and to all of her children. Recently, over 30 years after the affair and plural marriage, the 1st wife demanded that the 2nd wife be sent away. The husband agreed and my friend's mother was exiled from her home. The situation was so heinous that it became a witness against plural marriage to those observing the devastating aftermath, including to my friend's subsequent husband.
  • Lastly, I personally know a man in my former church who had an affair which produced a child. He supports the child and visits her, but he stayed with his first wife. He doesn't deny the child and all consider her to be part of his family, but he didn't marry the mother.

There was a man on this site recently who claimed that sex (loss of virginity) = marriage. All of us disagreed with him from Scripture. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is possible for a married man to fall into fornication, just as it is for a single man. The husband in the hypothetical scenario is not married to the 2nd woman until that commitment is clearly made by both. This being the case, the 2nd woman is not yet really under his headship. What if her intention is to replace the first wife, or skankier yet, to just become a single mother who draws child support? The man has little true leverage here, especially in our society. Clearly the man should repent from his fornication, but that doesn't mean that the 2nd woman will agree to plural marriage. She may just want to repent and go her own way. Sin is always messy and destructive. The ways out of it are not always neat and tidy.

If it were me advising this group of people, I would tell them to seek reconciliation, study together, talk with each other, counsel with godly people, consider plural marriage or whether it would be better to support the child outside of the man's home (like Abraham did when he sent out Hagar or when he sent out his concubines with gifts), pray, pray, and pray. I believe that God would have people address these instances on a case by case basis. Happy families rarely result from secret affairs, since they are inherently born out of sin, lies, and betrayal.

I think that we in the plural marriage camp are starting off completely wrong if our approach includes retroactively justifying affairs or to promoting the idea that men should force their wives into PM. Any godly observer is going to be repulsed -- especially if they haven't received the truth about polygyny -- and I guess I'd find it hard to blame them. God can potentially turn any situation into one of beauty, but ultimately (mistakes notwithstanding) I would say that men need to grow up and keep their pants on until they have a marriage commitment. A much better way to approach plural marriage is the way Biblical Families has done: as a loving and intentional ministry to care for single women and widows in response to God's leading toward strong families.

SweetLissa, there's an absolutely critical factor missing in our discussion. I'll address that in a separate post.
 
I have never said anyone should be forced into polygamy. I have said that a Godly wife will submit to her husband's leading. They are different although in very subtle ways.

When I am submissive it doesn't mean that my husband has to force me to do his will. Just like God doesn't force us to do his will either. A Godly wife will serve God by submitting her will to her husbands. There is no force. I am not saying that I do it 100%.

As for your examples of how secret affairs ended badly in polygamy let me point out one thing that you missed. In no place did you ever mention that any of them were trying to serve God. Each situation you mentioned there was a secret agenda by one or the other of the women. If there is a secret agenda it will fail 100%. If all members want to serve God and actively pursue serving God than it will be a happy family. Because God knows that we will be happiest serving Him.

I doubt that anyone who has had a "secret affair" and turns that into a polygamous family is trying to justify their sins. More they are trying to right a wrong. I use this analogy when I tell people about it...

When a man goes off to war, his wife waits for him at home. Things happen during war that affect the husband and the family. If a man loses an arm or a leg while at war, does the wife refuse to move on in the marriage without that missing piece? Well, of course some do, but that would not be the norm. The normal thing is to find a way to live with the new reality and move on with your life. Well, when an affair happens it isn't just sex. It involves more than one person. After an affair, it is more than just turning away from your sin. You have changed inside and you have changed the fabric of your family and your life. Nothing is ever the same. The other woman is effected in ways that no one ever finds out because she is assumed to be a whore or whatever. No one cares about her well-being. The wife blames the whore, the church blames the whore and everyone tries to go back to life as it was before the affair. But it can't happen. Too much has changed. The husband knows it, the wife knows it and the other woman knows it.

The reality is that even if an affair never happens, once polygamy becomes an acceptible idea for a man who is called that way, his world will never be the same. It will feel like he has lost something. Think about how mothers who give children for adoption feel a missing part for all of their lives. It can be like that.

SweetLissa
 
Joe88,
Here is the real question...

Suppose some really silly husband goes out and takes a second wife without his wife's knowledge. He comes home and says, "Surprise, Honey, can we keep her?"

Wife1 has a couple of options...

1. Submit and learn to deal with it.
2. Walk away.

But the third option, that of abandoning the 2nd woman, is not an option.

Of course as men, none of you would like to believe this can happen. But it does happen and it has happened. That is part of why this board was formed. Because we want people to learn from the mistakes that have happened in the past and teach them a better way. But the fact remains that the husband in this scenario has married himself to the second woman and no matter what the first wife does, nothing will change it.

That is the world we live in, where people do silly things and others have to deal with the aftermath. In your perfect world, yes, the husband would wait patiently for his wife to accept and embrace. More power to the men who are that patient with their wives. I applaud them and wish that all husbands would be likewise. But there are women who would never adjust if they were not pushed into it. There are women who would manipulate their husbands to do things their way. And that is the situation I was trying to spotlight. If I, as a woman, have the ultimate power to decide if my husband can take another wife, then if I am not willing to leave my comfort zone, I will simply never adjust. But the reality is that God has placed that power in the hands of the husband, not the wife.

SweetLissa
 
First, if my husband has to force me into submission every step of the way through our marriage it will be a miserable experience for both of us.

Second, when I chose to marry my husband, I chose to trust God to guide him and I chose to trust hubby to follow God.

Third, If I submit to my husband, then I am submitted to God.

Fourth, I DO NOT WANT TO BE THE ONE TO TELL GOD "NO!"

Because as I understand it, submission to hubby is submission to God, because God has placed hubby in my life as my head.

So, on the day I committed my heart and life to my husband, I gave him the gift of my submission.

If a wife is truly submitted to her husband then there can be no force. She has placed her trust in God and is following her husband with God's blessing.

Love not force is actually a misnomer because if a woman is following God but not her husband how can she be following God?

SweetLissa
 
DaPastor said:
I say potentially, because it depends if the wife is a true believer.
Click to expand...

The comparison is great But why would a christian husband married to a non-believer?....... Obviously if salvation came after marriage that is different, but a christian should not marry a non-believer. A mature christian should not marry a "baby" christian.. They must be equally yoked

I think much of the 'well, what-if, but, when, how about" that has been discussed because we as believers are accustomed to marriages being unequally yoked, even if they are both confessing believers it does not make them equally yoked.

Before our agreement to marry, this was the most difficult point for TC and me. We were 'churched' in very different denominations and thus had different christian culture which made it difficult to easily judge if we were equally yoked. We both were saved, commited; but were we truely equal?
Many christian marriages 'suffer' because the individuals feel that as long as they're both saved that is good enough to be yoked.

Sure hooking up 2 morgan horses to pull a wagon is better than 1 morgan horse and 1 golden retreiver, but it still won't work if one of the 2 horses is a foal and not full grown.

TC has done premarrital counseling and has upset many families when he does not "approve" the couple. - enough to cause entire families to leave the church.
(the church group we are in, the pastors do not marry anyone without being able to put their blessing and approval on it, thus each couple has an approval process)
TC puts it simply to the gal, "Why do you want to yoke yourself up to a shmuck that you will have difficulty submitting to?"
For a guy, "Why do you want to stick yourself with a woman who will not listen to you and trust you?"

If more christian marriages (PM or mono) were properly yoked, it would be easier for wives to submit. If you are submitted to the Lord and your dh is equally submitted, a wife will not have serious issues with submission to her husband. Obviously there might be some due to sin, but that should be able to be handled through pray and exhortation.

If a wife has continuous issues with submission (in multiple areas not just PM) then that is proof of a yoking problem. If there is a yoking problem the wagon is not going anywhere, so stop before the wagon flips and fix the yoking issue.
A good christian husband will love as Christ did, and that husband will not put his wife in harm physically or emotionally. If the husband is causing harm then he is not a husband that cares for his wife as Christ does the church and that is a major problem....
Now the wife yoked herself to a lame horse (assuming this is a non-arranged marriage situation) so she is still yoked to him and still needs to submit, but with that submission she can rest assured that she is following God by following her husband. This lame horse husband will be the one responsible for not "getting the wagon delivered on time" when he stands before the Lord.

If a wife is truly submitted to her husband then there can be no force. She has placed her trust in God and is following her husband with God's blessing.
Click to expand...
-Amen!

To those who view submission as something that allows for abuse or being treated like a door mat, I say that if the woman never got yoked to the mule she would not have to deal with a mule kicking her.
Too many rush into marriage without being sure they are dividing His Will verses their fleshly desires. Some want to speed things along. Perhaps yes it is His Will to have this marriage but He wants you to wait for His timing.

TC had to wait until he was 32. He spent years praying "where is the wife you want me to have?" It is not an easy test, resting on the Lord to wait over a decade while you see all your peers marry and start families. Then a few years before the Lord brought us together, a close devoted prayer warrior who had been lifting up TC's 'plight' in prayer, was given a small vision of me and that I was to be his wife; but when asked 'where is she?' The answer was "She is not ready yet." Obviously that was a difficult truth for him to take, to know "she" is out there but also know "She isn't ready yet". He wondered "what do you mean she isn't ready yet?? I'm 30!" He wondered if his wife was going to be a widow or an innocent single mom -perhaps that is why he had to wait so many years. Would he have the opportunity to have her bear his children? How many more years of waiting would it be?
I was a coworker of his kid sister and I was introduced to TC at his parent's christmas open house. The next day he was on the phone to that prayer warrior to double check who "she" was to be, just to be sure he wasn't trying "put the glass slipper on the wrong girl".
As TC found out, I wasn't ready because #1 I was much younger and #2 I hadn't accepted my call to be a wife. I felt that I was never going to marry. I thought I was called to remain single for life and be used by the Lord as a single. God had to correct my understanding on my view on the calling for my life before I was ready.
TC probably prayed a thousand prayers to find his wife; I prayed once. "God give me a dedicated christian man I can submit to." At that point, I was finally ready.

So submission is huge in a marriage. You must also submit to God so to have him provide you the spouse He plans for you.
 
TCR,

We should have you write an article on Submission for our resources page. That was one of the best explanations I have ever read.

Blessings,

Doc
 
duelingbanjos said:
TCR,

We should have you write an article on Submission for our resources page. That was one of the best explanations I have ever read.

Blessings,

Doc
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for your compliment.
 
TCR

The comparison is great But why would a christian husband married to a non-believer?....... Obviously if salvation came after marriage that is different, but a christian should not marry a non-believer. A mature christian should not marry a "baby" christian.. They must be equally yoked
Click to expand...

Actually, I intended it to be "tongue in cheek". Having counseled for years, I have seen too many "Christian" women (and men for that matter), proclaim their faithfulness to God, but their actions communicate another message. The point I was emphasizing was that if a woman comes to understand that Biblical Marriage includes polygyny, and she is a follower of Christ, how could she ever claim that she was being forced by her husband to accept another wife into the family? Even her husband chooses a wife she does not particularly think is the best choice for him, she should process it with the help of the Holy Spirit, choose to act Biblically, and her emotions will eventually follow those choices. If her emotions do not follow, she has not allowed God to deal with her heart.

This is similar to how the Military operates. If you are a believer, and your commander makes decisions that you do not like, and the decisions are not immoral, it is the believer's responsibility to process thge decision with the help of the Holy Spirit. Choose to act Biblically, possessing a right attitude. Then, submit to him as unto the Lord. It really works!
 
Wow. Amazing insights provided by so many. It is such a blessing to have found this forum. I love being able to see through many sets of eyes in addition to my own. That is what is so cool about relating to others who honor and seek truth. (Eph. 4) The clarity increases exponentially.

This reminds me of holographic film. Unlike typical film, when you cut off a sizable portion of the negative you experience a decrease in the resolution of the entire image. Of course, with typical film you simply lose the "linear" corresponding part of the image that was "imprinted" on that portion that was cut off. Now, think of that in reverse to the completion of the intended "blueprint".

May the "living stones" be jointly fit together!

Curtis
 
You seem to be attacking a point I never made..... My point was that we don't find many times in Scripture where God directly said to a specific person, "Listen, I know you really don't like this person, but go marry her anyway."
Click to expand...
the jews understand that the first commandment given to all of mankind (as opposed to just adam) was to be fruitfull and multiply. to them a man who did not marry was a man who was not following God and could not be a rabbi.
yes, we see few instances of God requiring marriage to a specific person.
why?
1) if in the culture wives were sought after and all of the women had options there would probably be no need for Him to make specific requirements
2) is every single thing that God told any person written down? i think not, I am sure that He guided numberless males in their search and even more fathers in arranged marriages for their children.
isaac made a choice and was forced to marry her sister as well. it is not possible that God did not notice nor care. it had to have happened with His complicity. did He choose/arrange the mothers of the 12 tribes on purpose? (things that make you go "hmmmmm")


Even if you brought up Levirate marriage, it misses the larger point I was making that God allows us to make choices and that we should strive to make wise ones, according to the dictates of His Holy Word. If you know for sure that God has commanded you to do something, then by all means you'd better follow Him. On the other hand, I hope you're also testing the spirits as the Scriptures say to do. I've heard people say "God told me such and such" and then it didn't come to pass...
Click to expand...
true, but all too often we make those choices using input from our own feelings, our wives, friends and etc. rather than from our creator and owner. a wise choice will always involve asking Almighty God for His opinion.


on another note:
consider david's wife michal, saul's daughter and (i believe) david's first wife.
when he was dancing before the Lord as they brought the ark back he danced straight outta his clothes.
she chewed him up, down and sideways for showing off and proceeds to become a nobody while the woman who he commits sin with becomes the mother of solomon and part of the lineage of Yeshua.

attitude is really important
it can get a wife put on the shelf while the husband goes on with God and the rest of the family
worse, it can put the whole family on the shelf while God works to bring the husband around


all-ya-all's been puttin some really good stuff in this thread with the post by randy near the top
 
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