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The Nature of Jesus

This is an interesting discussion, and I have a definite bias here, but I'd like to point out something that hasn't been mentioned. The following prophecy has received some attention in this thread:

Psalms 2:7 NKJV "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

However, the timing of the fulfillment is significant to this debate. Some say it applies to Jesus' birth, but the following passages give us another possibility:

Acts 13:33-35 NKJV God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.' (34) And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I WILL GIVE YOU THE SURE MERCIES OF DAVID.' (35) Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO SEE CORRUPTION.'

Hebrews 1:3-5 NKJV who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (4) having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (5) For to which of the angels did He ever say: "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again: "I WILL BE TO HIM A FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE TO ME A SON"?

Romans 1:3-4 NKJV concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, (4) and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

It seems to me that these verses indicate that the timing of the declaration calling Jesus the "Son" was made at the resurrection, not at His birth. This is significant in that it provides more evidence that Jesus preexisted His birth and was present at the creation in Genesis 1:26 and was spoken of as Creator in Col 1:16.

1 Corinthians 15:45 NKJV (45) And so it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING BEING." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

When did the "last Adam" become a life-giving spirit? It was when He was raised!

1 Peter 1:3 NKJV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 3:18, 21 NKJV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
... (21) There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We also are "begotten" children of God and grafted into His kingdom when we accept His Son's sacrifice, which is symbolized by baptism, not at our birth.

Also, the Father speaks to the Son saying, "O God." Notice this passage:
Hebrews 1:8-11 NKJV But to the Son He says: "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM. (9) YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS MORE THAN YOUR COMPANIONS." (10) And: "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORK OF YOUR HANDS. (11) THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY WILL ALL GROW OLD LIKE A GARMENT;

Further, who is the Son of Man?

Notice the plural "thrones" in this passage:
Daniel 7:9 NKJV "I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;

Then we see His dramatic entrance:
Daniel 7:13-14 NKJV "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. (14) Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

Consider also that God does not share His glory:
Isaiah 42:8 NKJV I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 48:11 NKJV For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.

So when Jesus prayed, in John 17:5 NKJV saying, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was," it was more than metaphor.

And the Pharisees heard Him clearly, when He said,
John 10:30-33 NKJV I and My Father are one." (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. (32) Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" (33) The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

This oneness echoes the "echad" unity spoken of since ancient times through the prophets.

Also,
John 5:17-18 NKJV But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." (18) Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Again,
John 8:57-59 NKJV Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" (58) Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (59) Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

This reminded the Jews immediately of:
Exodus 3:14-15 NKJV And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' " (15) Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.'

He claims the Name again three times (notice that the "He" is italicized, meaning it's not present in the Greek):
John 18:4-8 NKJV Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, "Whom are you seeking?" (5) They answered Him, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus said to them, "I am He." And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. (6) Now when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground. (7) Then He asked them again, "Whom are you seeking?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth." (8) Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,"

Paul later speaks of the Son in this way:
Philippians 2:6 NKJV who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
and Colossians 2:9 NKJV For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

Anyway, I've probably thoroughly revealed my bias! For continued discussion, I wanted to add the timing of the fulfillment of the "You are My Son" prophecy for your prayerful consideration.

That's a lot to unpack. I just wanted to acknowledge all the work that went into that. I'll have to spend some time trying to figure out if I agree or not.
 
It seems to me that these verses indicate that the timing of the declaration calling Jesus the "Son" was made at the resurrection, not at His birth. This is significant in that it provides more evidence that Jesus preexisted His birth and was present at the creation in Genesis 1:26 and was spoken of as Creator in Col 1:16.
I think @ZecAustin is inside my brain. I was considering writing almost the exact same thing he did about your post. Thanks for all the effort involved in it.
For now as I run out to hit some sales that supposedly the husband is needed to be in attendance at to make judgement calls...
I want to just comment on the part I quoted you from above.

I disagree that they waited until the resurrection to call Yeshua the "Son".

Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter replied,
“You are the Christ ,the Son of the living God ( ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ζῶντος.)"
Clearly He's recognized before the resurrection here as the "Son".
 
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Yes, I agree that he was recognized as the Son of God by the disciples and He called Himself that. However, the fulfillment of the prophecy occurs when God makes the declaration. Jesus (Yeshua) often speaks about things that are yet future while using the present or even the past tense. This speaks to the certainty of prophecy at the same time it can make prophecy difficult to decipher. I do realize that a consequence of this would be that His name as Son would itself be prophetic of His victory on the cross.

Check out the following examples:
John 17:4 NKJV I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
versus
John 19:30 NKJV So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
(The final work would be completed on the cross. His statement in 17:4 indicates the certainty of its completion.)

John 13:18 NKJV "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS BREAD WITH ME HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'
(Judas was declared the betrayer before he fulfilled his action. Again, this indicates that God's foreknowledge is certain and complete.)

John 1:29 NKJV The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
versus
1 Corinthians 5:7 NKJV Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
(Christ was declared to be the Lamb of God before He gave Himself on the cross. John the Baptist's statement again indicates the certainty of Jesus' victory.)

John 16:5-11 NKJV "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?' (6) But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. (7) Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. (8) And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (9) of sin, because they do not believe in Me; (10) of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; (11) of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
(None of these things had happened yet, but Jesus speaks confidently about them as though they were already written in history books.)

The above and following verses really make me consider the gravity of prophecy. Unlike with us, the future is never a maybe, it is a done-deal in God's eyes.
Matthew 26:52-54 NKJV But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. (53) Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? (54) How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"
Mark 13:7 NKJV But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for such things must happen, but the end is not yet.
John 10:35 NKJV If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

It is so, even in the OT. Often, centuries passed before the following were fulfilled:
Ezekiel 37:12-14 NKJV Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (13) Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. (14) I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' "
(Israel had not yet been scattered. It would later become the only nation in history to be destroyed, its people scattered, its language forgotten, its currency abolished, to return to nationhood -- all in one day.)

Ezekiel 44:1-2 NKJV Then He brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary which faces toward the east, but it was shut. (2) And the LORD said to me, "This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it, because the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut.
(This is the Golden Gate east of Jerusalem which has been walled shut since 1541. When the prophecy was written, Jesus (Yeshua) had not yet entered the gate into Jerusalem and the gate would not be shut for many centuries after the prophecy.)

Isaiah 40:2 NKJV "Speak comfort to Jerusalem, and cry out to her, That her warfare is ended, That her iniquity is pardoned; For she has received from the LORD's hand Double for all her sins."
(At the time, she had not received "double for her sins" -- her judgment was looming. Clearly for anyone who studies middle east politics, "her warfare has ended" has not yet happened, but will happen during the millennial reign and beyond when Christ rules from Jerusalem. Israel's iniquity - depending on what is being spoken of - is either the iniquity of sinners being pardoned upon belief in Christ, or her iniquity being pardoned and restored when He returns to take her again as His bride. See the riddle in Jer 3:1 which can only be fulfilled by the death of both parties - Israel the divorced wife and the Husband Christ.)

Jesus (Yeshua) was called the Shepherd before His incarnation:
Zechariah 13:7 NKJV "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, Against the Man who is My Companion," Says the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd, And the sheep will be scattered; Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
(This was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane. This is a striking verse -- after all, Who else can be a Companion to the Lord of Hosts?)

Here are several other names which have prophetic significance and will be fulfilled at the time of the 2nd coming or after:
Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8) - This will be fulfilled in eternity.
Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2) - All of us are being sanctified if we are given to Christ, but we will all put on incorruption at the Last Trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54).
Bridegroom (Matt 9:15, 25:1-13, 2 Cor 11:2, Rev 19: 7,9) - We are betrothed to Christ, but not yet married.
Desire of the Nations (Haggai 2:7) - He will rule the nations during the millennium.
Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev 5:5) - He came as a Lamb the first time.
Redeemer (Job 19:25) - He has made the payment, but we have not yet been taken into our Kinsman Redeemer's house.
Righteous Judge (2 Tim 4:8) - Christ will judge the living and the dead.

So, how much of this popular verse is prophetic? Is it:
John 3:16 NKJV For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
or is it:
John 3:16 NKJV For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(Recall, God gave His Son in the same way Abraham gave Isaac, except that the sacrifice was complete, so the giving was not complete at His birth, nor was it complete when Jesus (Yeshua) started His ministry. The serpent in the wilderness must be lifted up, just as Jesus (Yeshua) would be lifted up - as He points out in the preceding verse and John 12:31.)

I see the prophetic nature of the name "Son of God" as yet another reason to have utmost confidence in this very deceptive time. For:
John 16:33 NKJV These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
 
John 3:16 NKJV For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
or is it:
John 3:16 NKJV For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Hey I don't have time to reply in full just now, but I want to keep from repeating certain things we've discussed already in the thread.
I provide a fairly solid proof from the original language that "only begotten son" is not the proper translation of the underlying Greek in John.
Please see my previous post earlier in this thread: Biblical Families μονογενής (monogeneys) does not mean "only begotten"
 
I provide a fairly solid proof from the original language that "only begotten son" is not the proper translation of the underlying Greek in John.
Please see my previous post earlier in this thread: Biblical Families μονογενής (monogeneys) does not mean "only begotten"

Yes IshChayil, I read it - very interesting. It seems to me our two perspectives dovetail and support each other. Not being a scholar in the original languages, it seems safest for me to quote Bible passages as they are written in an English translation for the purposes of discussing doctrine.

Didn't God do that audibly When Jesus was baptized and at the transfiguration?

You're right, He did make an announcement, Jim. My goal on this issue is to try to pinpoint the timing of the fulfillment, not the announcements, if that makes sense. For example, there is a definite moment a man and woman become husband and wife, but while they are betrothed (Biblically) they are considered married for the purposes of determining whether adultery has occurred. The betrothal is before the marriage, but the two are regarded in almost all ways as already married without the physical reality. Similarly, the church is compared to the wife of Christ in Ephesians 5, but the actual event will take place in Revelation 19:7-9. Also, in John 11:24-25, Jesus (Yeshua) calls Himself the "Resurrection and the Life," but these were not fulfilled until either after the cross or yet future at the end of time. There are many other such examples.

The reason it's important (and it seems you and I have a different opinion on this) is that it's critical for many reasons to realize that the Savior is also our eternal God -- Whom we can trust because of His infinite power and foreknowledge -- not a mere created being (see Isaiah 43:3, 11, 15, 45:21, 60:16, 63:7-9, Hosea 13:4, Luke 1:47, Titus 1:3-4 -- God is the Savior, there is no other. Also compare Rev 2:8 to 22:13 to 1:11 to 1:8 -- Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty).
 
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Deut. 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Do you believe in one God or three? This is one reason Jewish people have such a problem with Christians. There is a lot of fancy talk to make three into one, but it is not necessary to explain Christ. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Why? God was not lonely. God did not need worship. God did not ‘need’ anything! Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. What was God’s pleasure? To have a Son! John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

logos, Greek 3056, Strong’s
logos,
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log'-os; from Greek 3004 (lego); something said (including the thought); . . .

The WORD God said was something like: “I shall have a Son!” All things were created for the purpose of the manifestation of the Son of God! Every Angel, every planet, every rock, everything in the Spiritual and Physical realms was created for the grand purpose that God would have a Son!

Most Christian narratives portray God as wanting the fellowship of man, and for-seeing that man would sin. Adding, God made a way for restoration because God loves US SO much! The real truth is God Loves His Son SOOOO much! He loved Him before He was even born! Like a good parent He made provision for Him. What must God’s Son be like? He must be a King! So He needs a Kingdom! He needs subjects! He will become a joint heir with His Father! He must be tested and proven worthy, though! He must not be a spoiled brat! He must have compassion. He must learn obedience. He must have humility! He must not be born with full power and Glory, lest He turn in rebellion against His Father, and the universe be thrown into chaos! Even having the power and Glory of an Angel would be too much to risk. No, Jesus would be made lower than Angels! He would be made flesh! Then, if He proved faithful through death, He would then be exalted to His rightful and full inheritance! God made mankind, so He could make woman, so He could have a Son! God’s pleasure in His Son was the obedience of Christ! Why would we think the one thing that God could not do, in all of the universe, would be to actually have a begotten Son?

Would this make Jesus more special than Adam? Yes! Adam was created as son; Jesus was born of God... a begotten Son! Was Jesus like Adam? Jesus had a different destiny and calling.

The whole of the creation was for Him! Adam’s race was merely the means by which God would have a Son! An earthly son born to wealth or to a King would, at birth, be the heir! He would have a destiny. He would be the chosen one! A wise parent would train and groom him before putting him ‘in charge.’ Jesus was tested and proven faithful. His advantage over us?... He was born without sin and was the chosen of God! Now, Jesus has been glorified and exalted, and is my God and my King! If Adam had not sinned, he could have never been exalted to the right hand of the Father... for he was not the chosen One! How did Jesus obtain His position? It was a destiny! It was a calling! It was by birth!.. AND He earned it! Jesus’ death proved His obedience to the Father! Jesus was without sin! Jesus is now co-equal in power and Glory with God as a faithful Son, who has proven now worthy to become a partner in the family business!

Thank God for Jesus! If sin had not entered the universe, Jesus would have still had to die to prove worthy to rule! He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world! If sin had not yet entered, it would have been ‘paid for’ in advance. Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? This was the primary purpose of Christ’s death! God never wanted or intended for sin to enter the picture at all. There was no devil to tempt the devil; there was freewill in Satan, and also in Adam... they both made a wrong choice. The preservation of the entire creation, and the hope of a new creation, is only because of Jesus! If Jesus had failed, God could have chose to destroy it ALL! Even the righteous Angels owe their creation and continued existence to Jesus!

Adam was not ‘just a normal guy.’ Neither was Christ! The question is what do you mean by the “divine nature?” Adam was not “divine” in the sense of being God. However, he was created with divine nature... as in ‘sinless’ and in “the image of God.” Jesus also had the nature of His Father and was born sinless. Adam could have lived without sin, he didn't. Angels could live without sin; some did, some did not. On the other hand, Jesus could have sinned... but He did not! If He could not have sinned, then the temptations were not really temptations! He had no practical advantage over Adam as far as disposition, or having prior knowledge (consciousness), or special power. Adam had a charge to be obedient to God’s will for his life... and he failed. Jesus also had a charge to be obedient to God’s will. He was given a prophetic destiny to fulfill. He was successful. Jesus won back the creation on the same playing field that Adam lost it. Was Jesus special? Yes, in that he was begotten and chosen. But in comparing Jesus to Adam... flesh to flesh... there were no special ‘attributes.’ Jesus had the personality and sinless nature of His Father, but he was NOT born as full-fledged God. Jesus said, “My father is greater than I.” John 14:28 He was the only begotten Son of God: but as our children are born as minors, and have to grow into maturity, then receive their inheritance, so did Jesus! Jesus’ path to maturity with His Father was not unconditional. Jesus proved Himself faithful through death, just as an earthly father would be wise to test the faithfulness of his son before giving him the full wealth and power of the Kingdom!

We are now in process of being tested and proven faithful before being released into our full Glory as well! Jesus will always be the King! He will always be the elder brother, because He was in the mind of God first! That’s why He said He was before Abraham was! The devil has twisted the understanding of the Scripture concerning Christ in order to hid Jesus’ true identity and nature, and to hid from us our own. The job was simple for him... just focus on the literal statements about Christ... and make them figurative, and take the figurative statements... and make them literal! Levi paid tithe in the loins of Abraham, but we don’t ascribe conscious pre-existence to Levi!

Thanks for letting me share these thoughts! I was raised Trinitarian, and when the Holy Spirit revealed this truth to me, it took several months of study to get past established tradition. This understanding is much simpler than trying to make a God become a man, so mankind could be saved, so the God-man could become a God again.

For the record, I do not think that you cannot be saved because you believe in the ‘Trinity’ or hold to the ‘Oneness’ view. However, one must believe that Christ was the begotten Son of God, and lived in the flesh. If you see that as incarnation, I think it takes away from His example to us! Yes, He knew who His Father was at a very young age. Most of us did, too! How? Our mother told us! And our Father told us! Even now, most of us take it on faith. Jesus lived the ultimate life of faith as our example. The temptations in the wilderness were not about food and God’s protection. They were about: “If thou be the Son of God...” The idea was to make room for doubt... Prove it by a work! Prove it!! Sometimes, Satan tempts us the same way.
If anyone does see this as Incarnation, it does take away from Him. It demeans Him. It demeans His accomplishments. It prematurely exalts Him and gives him Glory prematurely before he was Glorified! This is the most logical scripturally sound explanation anyone has ever said and I'm not a child (but now I feel like one!.. Thanks Jim!
 
I do not believe God is diminished. I believe as a whole it diminishes the strength and the effectiveness of the Kingdom that God is trying to build for his dear son. Prematurely exalted? Yes! Prematurely glorified? Yes! It demeans Jesus! It demeans his accomplishments! I know the scripture that says Glorify thou me with the glory..." It does not mean what you think it does.
 
You want loopy?
You want preexistent?

Yahushua was Adam reincarnated.
1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV) 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

*running for the hills*
(Oh wait, I am already in Broadus MT, you cannot get me)
That took courage @steve ! Kudos!
 
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