The Nature of Jesus

[Mojo]

Some modern versions read John 3:16 as God's only Son. This is error. Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son. Angels are called sons by creation, some fell some remained sinless Adam was a son by creation, Adam fell and we were born from fallen fathers. Through the work of Christ we are restored and now are we sons of God back to righteousness. We live so short of what Jesus did and He said we could even do greater works. We will probably need a better understanding of kinship to walk there fully. Mojo. I love you and your quest for truth.

Thanks for the clarification on that comment. I wasn't heated

But to add to this, one particular version says that the Word was "A god"...not a good translation either. That's why your explanation concerned me.

Also, as far as I am concerned, begotten is the qualifier that Christ is divine, not created, like the cherubim, seraphim, Adam, or us. He is a Son only by divine order and submission, not a devaluation.

 

[andrew]

Wouldn't the virgin birth support Christ having a divine nature from the beginning?

Seems to me....

 

[Jim an Apostle]

Well let me go ahead and dig my heels in here and say I will never be okay with downgrading Christ to the level of Adam. It sounds like you're saying Christ just happened to live sinless and so God blessed Him and elevated Him.

That can't be what you're saying though. That would be a normal guy saving himself through works and would imply if that one guy could do it another guy could too.

I'm sure I'm missing something here. It sure sounds like that you're saying a divine nature was added to Jesus after he proved himself worthy. This would make all of those prophecies and that rather dramatic birth story a little silly and probably false but would also pose all kind of problems for salvation and the inerrancy of the Bible.

So before you start rapid firing verses at me and trying to get all Socratic, just answer one simple question. Are you saying that Christ was a normal man who got a divine nature because he was able to not sin?

Deut. 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Do you believe in one God or three? This is one reason Jewish people have such a problem with Christians. There is a lot of fancy talk to make three into one, but it is not necessary to explain Christ. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Why? God was not lonely. God did not need worship. God did not ‘need’ anything! Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. What was God’s pleasure? To have a Son! John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

logos, Greek 3056, Strong’s
logos,

log'-os; from Greek 3004 (lego); something said (including the thought); . . .

The WORD God said was something like: “I shall have a Son!” All things were created for the purpose of the manifestation of the Son of God! Every Angel, every planet, every rock, everything in the Spiritual and Physical realms was created for the grand purpose that God would have a Son!

Most Christian narratives portray God as wanting the fellowship of man, and for-seeing that man would sin. Adding, God made a way for restoration because God loves US SO much! The real truth is God Loves His Son SOOOO much! He loved Him before He was even born! Like a good parent He made provision for Him. What must God’s Son be like? He must be a King! So He needs a Kingdom! He needs subjects! He will become a joint heir with His Father! He must be tested and proven worthy, though! He must not be a spoiled brat! He must have compassion. He must learn obedience. He must have humility! He must not be born with full power and Glory, lest He turn in rebellion against His Father, and the universe be thrown into chaos! Even having the power and Glory of an Angel would be too much to risk. No, Jesus would be made lower than Angels! He would be made flesh! Then, if He proved faithful through death, He would then be exalted to His rightful and full inheritance! God made mankind, so He could make woman, so He could have a Son! God’s pleasure in His Son was the obedience of Christ! Why would we think the one thing that God could not do, in all of the universe, would be to actually have a begotten Son?

Would this make Jesus more special than Adam? Yes! Adam was created as son; Jesus was born of God... a begotten Son! Was Jesus like Adam? Jesus had a different destiny and calling.

The whole of the creation was for Him! Adam’s race was merely the means by which God would have a Son! An earthly son born to wealth or to a King would, at birth, be the heir! He would have a destiny. He would be the chosen one! A wise parent would train and groom him before putting him ‘in charge.’ Jesus was tested and proven faithful. His advantage over us?... He was born without sin and was the chosen of God! Now, Jesus has been glorified and exalted, and is my God and my King! If Adam had not sinned, he could have never been exalted to the right hand of the Father... for he was not the chosen One! How did Jesus obtain His position? It was a destiny! It was a calling! It was by birth!.. AND He earned it! Jesus’ death proved His obedience to the Father! Jesus was without sin! Jesus is now co-equal in power and Glory with God as a faithful Son, who has proven now worthy to become a partner in the family business!

Thank God for Jesus! If sin had not entered the universe, Jesus would have still had to die to prove worthy to rule! He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world! If sin had not yet entered, it would have been ‘paid for’ in advance. Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? This was the primary purpose of Christ’s death! God never wanted or intended for sin to enter the picture at all. There was no devil to tempt the devil; there was freewill in Satan, and also in Adam... they both made a wrong choice. The preservation of the entire creation, and the hope of a new creation, is only because of Jesus! If Jesus had failed, God could have chose to destroy it ALL! Even the righteous Angels owe their creation and continued existence to Jesus!

Adam was not ‘just a normal guy.’ Neither was Christ! The question is what do you mean by the “divine nature?” Adam was not “divine” in the sense of being God. However, he was created with divine nature... as in ‘sinless’ and in “the image of God.” Jesus also had the nature of His Father and was born sinless. Adam could have lived without sin, he didn't. Angels could live without sin; some did, some did not. On the other hand, Jesus could have sinned... but He did not! If He could not have sinned, then the temptations were not really temptations! He had no practical advantage over Adam as far as disposition, or having prior knowledge (consciousness), or special power. Adam had a charge to be obedient to God’s will for his life... and he failed. Jesus also had a charge to be obedient to God’s will. He was given a prophetic destiny to fulfill. He was successful. Jesus won back the creation on the same playing field that Adam lost it. Was Jesus special? Yes, in that he was begotten and chosen. But in comparing Jesus to Adam... flesh to flesh... there were no special ‘attributes.’ Jesus had the personality and sinless nature of His Father, but he was NOT born as full-fledged God. Jesus said, “My father is greater than I.” John 14:28 He was the only begotten Son of God: but as our children are born as minors, and have to grow into maturity, then receive their inheritance, so did Jesus! Jesus’ path to maturity with His Father was not unconditional. Jesus proved Himself faithful through death, just as an earthly father would be wise to test the faithfulness of his son before giving him the full wealth and power of the Kingdom!

We are now in process of being tested and proven faithful before being released into our full Glory as well! Jesus will always be the King! He will always be the elder brother, because He was in the mind of God first! That’s why He said He was before Abraham was! The devil has twisted the understanding of the Scripture concerning Christ in order to hid Jesus’ true identity and nature, and to hid from us our own. The job was simple for him... just focus on the literal statements about Christ... and make them figurative, and take the figurative statements... and make them literal! Levi paid tithe in the loins of Abraham, but we don’t ascribe conscious pre-existence to Levi!

Thanks for letting me share these thoughts! I was raised Trinitarian, and when the Holy Spirit revealed this truth to me, it took several months of study to get past established tradition. This understanding is much simpler than trying to make a God become a man, so mankind could be saved, so the God-man could become a God again.

For the record, I do not think that you cannot be saved because you believe in the ‘Trinity’ or hold to the ‘Oneness’ view. However, one must believe that Christ was the begotten Son of God, and lived in the flesh. If you see that as incarnation, I think it takes away from His example to us! Yes, He knew who His Father was at a very young age. Most of us did, too! How? Our mother told us! And our Father told us! Even now, most of us take it on faith. Jesus lived the ultimate life of faith as our example. The temptations in the wilderness were not about food and God’s protection. They were about: “If thou be the Son of God...” The idea was to make room for doubt... Prove it by a work! Prove it!! Sometimes, Satan tempts us the same way.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Christ was God and man. He was both. It sounds like you're trying to make Him one or the other.

 

[rustywest4]

Considering Who He is, will simply never get old! For me it's like a never ending mind blowing roller coaster of AWEsome!

... I'm gonna do my best to voice my beliefs concerning Jesus / Yeshua / Christ / Messiah... but TBH I'm usually too intimidated by you really smart and well spoken gentleman for me to say much...

John 1 lays a great foundation I think:
The uncreated Creator manifests part of Himself into the beginning of existence by way of letting His Voice be heard and His Word be spoken. Light in it's full spectrum IS. Sound IS. And to this day every atom of existence still vibrates at the frequency of His will. I believe that moment of "Let there be Light." was the moment Christ was "birthed" in a sense spiritually. He was with God prior to becoming that manifested part through which the Creator created all else. The Logos.

The Word of God Who later was born of a virgin as prophesied, and stepped into His own creation. He walked with Adam in the garden. He visited Abram. He wrestled with Jacob. He spoke to Moshe from the burning bush. He sat and spoke with Moses in the tent of meeting, face to face as a friend speaks with his friend.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭15-17‬ NKJV)
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭9-10‬ NKJV)

Christophanies are my fav!

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I'm on my phone so will make this short and hopefully sweet.

John 1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was [both] with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God and without Him was not anything made that was made.

And the Word was made flesh and dwelt [tabernacled] among us and we beheld His glory as of the only begotten of the father full of grace and truth

FWIW. The English word for begotten doesn't really portray the usage in Hebrew culture, especially 1st century AD. I found a story in Josephus's work I can dig out later if necessary. Basically it is used in Hebrew context as the appointed inheritor, not necessarily begotten as we would think.

 

[Mojo]

Deut. 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Do you believe in one God or three? This is one reason Jewish people have such a problem with Christians. There is a lot of fancy talk to make three into one, but it is not necessary to explain Christ. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Why? God was not lonely. God did not need worship. God did not ‘need’ anything! Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. What was God’s pleasure? To have a Son! John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

logos, Greek 3056, Strong’s
logos,

log'-os; from Greek 3004 (lego); something said (including the thought); . . .

The WORD God said was something like: “I shall have a Son!” All things were created for the purpose of the manifestation of the Son of God! Every Angel, every planet, every rock, everything in the Spiritual and Physical realms was created for the grand purpose that God would have a Son!

Most Christian narratives portray God as wanting the fellowship of man, and for-seeing that man would sin. Adding, God made a way for restoration because God loves US SO much! The real truth is God Loves His Son SOOOO much! He loved Him before He was even born! Like a good parent He made provision for Him. What must God’s Son be like? He must be a King! So He needs a Kingdom! He needs subjects! He will become a joint heir with His Father! He must be tested and proven worthy, though! He must not be a spoiled brat! He must have compassion. He must learn obedience. He must have humility! He must not be born with full power and Glory, lest He turn in rebellion against His Father, and the universe be thrown into chaos! Even having the power and Glory of an Angel would be too much to risk. No, Jesus would be made lower than Angels! He would be made flesh! Then, if He proved faithful through death, He would then be exalted to His rightful and full inheritance! God made mankind, so He could make woman, so He could have a Son! God’s pleasure in His Son was the obedience of Christ! Why would we think the one thing that God could not do, in all of the universe, would be to actually have a begotten Son?

Would this make Jesus more special than Adam? Yes! Adam was created as son; Jesus was born of God... a begotten Son! Was Jesus like Adam? Jesus had a different destiny and calling.

The whole of the creation was for Him! Adam’s race was merely the means by which God would have a Son! An earthly son born to wealth or to a King would, at birth, be the heir! He would have a destiny. He would be the chosen one! A wise parent would train and groom him before putting him ‘in charge.’ Jesus was tested and proven faithful. His advantage over us?... He was born without sin and was the chosen of God! Now, Jesus has been glorified and exalted, and is my God and my King! If Adam had not sinned, he could have never been exalted to the right hand of the Father... for he was not the chosen One! How did Jesus obtain His position? It was a destiny! It was a calling! It was by birth!.. AND He earned it! Jesus’ death proved His obedience to the Father! Jesus was without sin! Jesus is now co-equal in power and Glory with God as a faithful Son, who has proven now worthy to become a partner in the family business!

Thank God for Jesus! If sin had not entered the universe, Jesus would have still had to die to prove worthy to rule! He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world! If sin had not yet entered, it would have been ‘paid for’ in advance. Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? This was the primary purpose of Christ’s death! God never wanted or intended for sin to enter the picture at all. There was no devil to tempt the devil; there was freewill in Satan, and also in Adam... they both made a wrong choice. The preservation of the entire creation, and the hope of a new creation, is only because of Jesus! If Jesus had failed, God could have chose to destroy it ALL! Even the righteous Angels owe their creation and continued existence to Jesus!

Adam was not ‘just a normal guy.’ Neither was Christ! The question is what do you mean by the “divine nature?” Adam was not “divine” in the sense of being God. However, he was created with divine nature... as in ‘sinless’ and in “the image of God.” Jesus also had the nature of His Father and was born sinless. Adam could have lived without sin, he didn't. Angels could live without sin; some did, some did not. On the other hand, Jesus could have sinned... but He did not! If He could not have sinned, then the temptations were not really temptations! He had no practical advantage over Adam as far as disposition, or having prior knowledge (consciousness), or special power. Adam had a charge to be obedient to God’s will for his life... and he failed. Jesus also had a charge to be obedient to God’s will. He was given a prophetic destiny to fulfill. He was successful. Jesus won back the creation on the same playing field that Adam lost it. Was Jesus special? Yes, in that he was begotten and chosen. But in comparing Jesus to Adam... flesh to flesh... there were no special ‘attributes.’ Jesus had the personality and sinless nature of His Father, but he was NOT born as full-fledged God. Jesus said, “My father is greater than I.” John 14:28 He was the only begotten Son of God: but as our children are born as minors, and have to grow into maturity, then receive their inheritance, so did Jesus! Jesus’ path to maturity with His Father was not unconditional. Jesus proved Himself faithful through death, just as an earthly father would be wise to test the faithfulness of his son before giving him the full wealth and power of the Kingdom!

We are now in process of being tested and proven faithful before being released into our full Glory as well! Jesus will always be the King! He will always be the elder brother, because He was in the mind of God first! That’s why He said He was before Abraham was! The devil has twisted the understanding of the Scripture concerning Christ in order to hid Jesus’ true identity and nature, and to hid from us our own. The job was simple for him... just focus on the literal statements about Christ... and make them figurative, and take the figurative statements... and make them literal! Levi paid tithe in the loins of Abraham, but we don’t ascribe conscious pre-existence to Levi!

Thanks for letting me share these thoughts! I was raised Trinitarian, and when the Holy Spirit revealed this truth to me, it took several months of study to get past established tradition. This understanding is much simpler than trying to make a God become a man, so mankind could be saved, so the God-man could become a God again.

For the record, I do not think that you cannot be saved because you believe in the ‘Trinity’ or hold to the ‘Oneness’ view. However, one must believe that Christ was the begotten Son of God, and lived in the flesh. If you see that as incarnation, I think it takes away from His example to us! Yes, He knew who His Father was at a very young age. Most of us did, too! How? Our mother told us! And our Father told us! Even now, most of us take it on faith. Jesus lived the ultimate life of faith as our example. The temptations in the wilderness were not about food and God’s protection. They were about: “If thou be the Son of God...” The idea was to make room for doubt... Prove it by a work! Prove it!! Sometimes, Satan tempts us the same way.

Can't go there with you. I wish you peace, but I just can't go there with you.
Shalom

 

[IshChayil]

I'm on my phone so will make this short and hopefully sweet.

John 1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was [both] with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God and without Him was not anything made that was made.

And the Word was made flesh and dwelt [tabernacled] among us and we beheld His glory as of the only begotten of the father full of grace and truth

FWIW. The English word for begotten doesn't really portray the usage in Hebrew culture, especially 1st century AD. I found a story in Josephus's work I can dig out later if necessary. Basically it is used in Hebrew context as the appointed inheritor, not necessarily begotten as we would think.

You are right VV, it's not "begotten" this is an error made by previously lacking Greek scholarship.

The Greek word is μονογενής (monogeneys) the mistranslations in King James and others come from the old understanding that this word was a compound of 2 words making up mono (like only one) and (ginomai) making up to "come into existence" or to "cause to come into existence" i.e. beget.
Many Greek lexicons today have not updated with the new information discovered in the past couple of decades. Parchments were found which clarify that the second part of the compound does not come from ginomai but actually from γένος (genus) "kind, class" like the cognate "Genus" in biology.
So the proper translation of mono+genus = 1 of a kind, singular, special.

This is the same word used in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew bible) when G-d is speaking to Abraham regarding Isaac (in the thread that just got locked), "take your ONLY son whom you love" the English doesn't make a lot of sense there either but it's close to the Hebrew. Hebrew says יחידך (Yakhidekha) "You're only one" (same word used poeticaly in psalms to refer to your soul, it's your only one, i.e. precious)
since we know that Isaac was not Avraham's only son, the LXX Greek translation adds value here since it uses the same word as John uses about Yeshua,
μονογενής (monogeneys)... "your unique son" this is important because G-d calls others His son, Israel He calls "My son" regarding how he will punish the Egyptians for what they have done to G-d's son.

Dr. Michael Heiser adds insight in his book, "Unseen Realm" that the בני-אלוקיםbnei elohim (sons of G-d) as I learned to translate as "angel", are different from Yeshua as the "monogenyes" son of G-d. He isn't begotten as the old scholarship suggested, He is as Heiser puts it "species unique". He has other sons, but none of them are as Heiser terms it "species unique" like Yeshua is; that is part of the G-d.

here is part of the entry from BDAG, arguably THE premier Greek lexicon for New Testament Greek.

μονογενής, ές (μόνος, γένος; Hes.; LXX; PsSol 18, 4; TestSol 20:2; TestBenj 9:2; ParJer 7:26; ApcEsdr 6:16; ApcSed 9:2; Joseph., Just.; loanw. in rabb.)
acc. μονογενῆ (-ῆν J 3:16 v.l.; Hb 11:17 D; also ApcEsdr 6:16)
① pert. to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship, one and only, only (so mostly, incl. Judg 11:34; Tob 3:15; 8:17) of children:
of Isaac, Abraham’s only son (Jos., Ant. 1, 222) Hb 11:17.
• Of an only son (PsSol 18:4; TestSol 20:2; ParJer 7:26; Plut., Lycurgus 59 [31, 8]; Jos., Ant. 20, 20) Lk 7:12; 9:38.
• Of a daughter (Diod S 4, 73, 2) of Jairus 8:42.
• (On the motif of a child’s death before that of a parent s. EpigrAnat 13, ’89, 128f, no. 2; 18, ’91, 94 no. 4 [244/45 A.D.]; GVI nos. 1663–69.)
② pert. to being the only one of its kind or class, unique (in kind) of someth. that is the only example of its category (Cornutus 27 p, 49, 13 εἷς κ. μονογενὴς ὁ κόσμος ἐστί. μονογενῆ κ. μόνα ἐστίν=‘unique and alone’; Pla., Timaeus 92c; Theosophien 181, §56, 27).
• Of a mysterious bird, the Phoenix 1 Cl 25:2.
• —In the Johannine lit. (s. also ApcEsdr and ApcSed: ὁ μονογενής υἱός; Hippol., Ref. 8, 10, 3; Did., Gen. 89, 18; ὑμνοῦμέν γε θεὸν καὶ τὸν μ. αὐτοῦ Orig., C. Cels. 8, 67, 14; cp. ἡ δύναμις ἐκείνη ἡ μ. Hippol., Ref. 10, 16, 6) μονογενὴς υἱός is used only of Jesus. The renderings only, unique may be quite adequate for all its occurrences here (so M-M., NRSV et al.; DMoody, JBL 72, ’53, 213–19; FGrant, ATR 36, ’54, 284–87; GPendrick, NTS 41, ’95, 587–600).
****** IT goes on a long time so I'll cut it there. I emphasized germaine parts*****

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 658). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

If anyone wants the reference from M-M this is where the new parchments are listed where the discovery of genus being the 2nd word in the compound which showed us it doesn't mean "only begotten" but "unique one" I'll upload.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

No problem. for me Jesus is one of a kind. He is the only One who was begotten. Just because He was one of a kind doesnt mean He wasn't begotten.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

born
yalad, Hebrew 3205, Strong’s
yalad, yaw-lad'; a primitive root; to bear young; causative to beget; to act as midwife; specifically to show lineage :- bear, beget, birth ([-day]), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail (-eth, -ing woman).


What about ...
Isn’t God the ultimate?! If anything or anyone was greater than God, wouldn’t that be God?

John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Why does Paul still refer to God as the God of Jesus?

Ephes. 1:17

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Romans 15:6

That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.



2 Cor. 1:2-3

Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. [3] Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Ephes. 1:2-3

Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

...and Peter?

1 Peter 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Still in Revelation? These are words in red aren’t they?

Rev. 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Rev. 3:21

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev. 1:5-6
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

How was Jesus tempted, if He was God?


James 1:13

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:


Hebrews 4:15

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus says God is the only true God?


John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


1 Tim. 1:17

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


One of the attributes of God is that He is eternal, unchangeable, theologians say immutable... how could He be made like a man, and remain God?

Hebrews 2:17-18
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. [18] For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


How could Jesus be co-equal with God and say this?

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


He forgave sins as an agent of God, and said we could do the same.


1 Cor. 15:24-28

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. [27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. [28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Even in the end, there is a difference in rank of God and His Son! God is the creator and the Father!

The idea that a conscious, pre-existant, co-equal God laid aside His power and became a man or a God/man creates more questions than answers.

 

[Mojo]

Are you arguing Unitarianism? What is your position?

 

[Joleneakamama]

The idea that a conscious, pre-existant, co-equal God laid aside His power and became a man or a God/man creates more questions than answers.

We could not agree more!

 

[Kevin a Teacher]

We could not agree more!

Same here. I spent about 20 years in the trinitarian doctrine and not once in all that time was anyone able to satisfactorily explain who Jesus is like Jim is here. At the same time it does not sound like unitarianism (given what little I do know about it). So far in my mind, he is not manipulating the doctrine in his argument.

 

[IshChayil]

Deut. 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Do you believe in one God or three? This is one reason Jewish people have such a problem with Christians. There is a lot of fancy talk to make three into one, but it is not necessary to explain Christ.

The Hebrew word used here for "one" is אחד "echad"which is an interesting choice. In Hebrew we have 2 words to express "oneness". יחיד "yachiyd" which is absolutely 1, and אחד "echad" used here which expresses really complex unity.
A famous Jewish philosopher/rabbi, the Rambam, complained that "Yachiyd" would have been better here...one of the reasons for this preference is exactly what your comment misunderstands about the original ... "yachiyd" would have been a great weapon against the Christian missionaries because it ends the discussion. "echad" as it stands does not end the discussion. The same word is used in the 1st paragraph of Genesis "and the evening and the morning was "echad" day", that is to say a "united day".
Man and woman shall become "echad" flesh (not yachiyd mind you) but united. We still have our independent functions but we operate as a unit.
Echad is used in reference to clusters of grapes and other unifying language. It's true that echad does not mean there is a trinity, but it is fortuitous to this thread about binitarianism as the use of echad in the shma hints at G-d's nature of existence; it hints at binatirianism or trinitarianitism or quadratarianism.
G-d is a unity. In one orthodox Jewish prayer book I saw from Britain, that passage was even translated so,
"Hear oh Israel, Adonai our G-d, Adonai is unified." I was very surprised to see such a translation in an orthodox siddur (not mainstream like artscroll mind you).
Other aspects of the Hebrew language hint at a plurality of sorts with G-d. The very fact that אלקים elohim, "gods" is used to mean "G-d" as in the one true G-d. In fact, the way we know to translate it as "G-d" and not "gods" is when the verb is in the singular despite the noun being a plural.

logos, Greek 3056, Strong’s
logos,

log'-os; from Greek 3004 (lego); something said (including the thought); . . .

I would just like to warn everyone, please do not use strongs definitions for the biblical languages. They are usually way off and just atrocious.
I understand there is value in the numbering system for marking words' usage and such but the definitions were never good despite the great effort he made in an era pre-computers.

The WORD God said was something like: “I shall have a Son!” All things were created for the purpose of the manifestation of the Son of God! Every Angel, every planet, every rock, everything in the Spiritual and Physical realms was created for the grand purpose that God would have a Son!

OK so I'd like to take us back to what Jews were expecting around the time of Yeshua.
I'm a big fan of the Targums; it's a work in progress for me but I find they often reveal fascinating insights into what people expected/believed in Yeshua's day. The Targums are an Aramaic translation of the bible.
There is an excellent scholarly work I love, The Jewish Targums and John's Logos Theology, by John Ronning (link is to Amazon). 400+ pages not a light read but a very interesting work if you really care what Jews would be thinking at that time when they read the book of John.
The author shows that the "logos" is not from any kind of Greek understanding or excellence in philosophy or anything like this but it is a rendering of the aramaic מימרא "memra" = "the word" (less frequently דיבורא "dibura" a synonym).
This term is used as a place holder for the divine name! (pg. 13 of that book)
"The word" is used to refer to G-d bringing out His people from Egypt, the targum tells us "He sent forth His word".
In Genesis we get in the Targum "the sound of the word of the L-rd walking around in the garden"
Whenever there is a physical manifestation of G-d on Earth in human form, the targums tell us it is "the word".
When G-d instructs Moses concerning the mercy seat, Targum Neofiti says "there I will apoint my memra"
in another place we get "the word used to speak to Moses".
This is interesting because all throughout the targums we see the memra as the "voice of G-d' or the "angel of the L-rd" when G-d manifests in a physical body to communicate. There's a lot that can be written here so I may save it for a separate thread.
When John calls Yeshua the "memra" he's calling Yeshua G-d. That's what it would show to a Jewish audience at that time especially since the Targum was very popular.

Most Christian narratives portray God as wanting the fellowship of man, and for-seeing that man would sin. Adding, God made a way for restoration because God loves US SO much! The real truth is God Loves His Son SOOOO much! He loved Him before He was even born!
...(stuff deleted)
God’s pleasure in His Son was the obedience of Christ! Why would we think the one thing that God could not do, in all of the universe, would be to actually have a begotten Son?

Please see my post explaining that the Greek behind John doesn't mean "only begotten" it means "species unique"

‘attributes.’ Jesus had the personality and sinless nature of His Father, but he was NOT born as full-fledged God. Jesus said, “My father is greater than I.” John 14:28 He was the only begotten Son of God

Now I've always understood the way G-d functions is that the part of G-d we know as Yeshua, His son, is subordinate to the Father. This is part of His complex unity. The begotten part I'm sorry to keep beating you up on but it's just not correct scholarship / translation.

Thanks for letting me share these thoughts! I was raised Trinitarian, and when the Holy Spirit revealed this truth to me, it took several months of study to get past established tradition. This understanding is much simpler than trying to make a God become a man, so mankind could be saved, so the God-man could become a God again.

Hey I don't see scripture anywhere claiming that Yeshua became G-d again. I understand you have thought through this for years and have constructed what you believe to be a solid position, and as you expressed you feel the Holy Spirit led you to this position so I'm going to tread gingerly here.
What if... what if... we could go back to the beginning of your search, with a now accurate understanding about the whole King James "begotten" mistranslation; I wonder if you would have started this quest to solve the problem posed by this errant phrasing "begotten" which is not in the true text?

You use begotten a lot in your post; that's been taken away from you now.
Let the dust settle a bit; and I would ask you to re-examine your position. I'm not saying your experience of being led by the Holy Spirit didn't happen though I think it's unfair to say such things in a debate/discussion setting...maybe that happened so we could all discuss this in great depth Maybe you are right after all, but just think through and be honest with yourself.

If your bible had not used that wrong, uninspired, word "begotten" to refer to Yeshua, would you believe the way you do today?
You kind of rolled over my comment about it like "no biggie" but it really is a doosie to your current position.

I think if you'll be intellectually honest with yourself when examining how you got where you are now, you'll need to admit it's from bad translation of your bible. Before you scramble to other verses, let's be real... if your bible hadn't said "only begotten son" you likely would not hold your current position right?
Doesn't mean your position is incorrect, it's just something I hope you'll consider deeply.
We must all wrestle with the text at times it seems as Jacob wrestled with the angel.

If you liked the Memra Aramaic stuff and think it will be helpful let me know and I'll compile many examples of how the "angel of the L-rd" is treated as the "memra"-"word of G-d"

 

[Jim an Apostle]

Are you arguing Unitarianism? What is your position?

I am merely presenting my understanding as the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me, and as my study and research has confirmed. From what I see, there are different versions of Unitarianism; and their common thread is denial of the Trinity. There are also those who deny the Trinity who present Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit as the same person in different manifestations. My goal is to seek truth. My simple position is:

• In the beginning God.
• We were created in God's image.
• We have body, soul, and spirit. God has a Spirit. This is the Holy Spirit, i.e., the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is omnipotent and omnipresent, and it can anoint us and indwell us. It is the thing that makes us one with Him. (Our Spirit is limited, God's is not.)
  
• God created all things because He desired to actually beget a Son.
• Jesus was begotten of the Father, making God an actual Father.
  
• The process of conception was not a sexual encounter of lust. (Mary was still a virgin after the conception.) The seed was the logos: God's spoken word that activated and merged with an egg of Mary to produce a son.
  
• Jesus from birth was chosen, but had to prove Himself faithful, which He did.
• Jesus operated by faith and the power of the Holy Spirit, just as we do.
• Jesus was born of a virgin. God was His Father; therefore, Jesus was born without sin.
• Jesus' death did two things: It was the means by which He was proven faithful, in order to be glorified, and sit and His Fathers right hand. It also atoned for sin. If sin had not entered, Jesus would have still died to enter into His Glory. If any sinned after that, repentance and forgiveness would still have been available.
  
• Jesus does not need conscious pre-existance to atone for sin and be the Son of God.
• Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is my King and Lord.
• Salvation is through grace, through faith in the sacrifice of Christ.
• Jesus has the birthright, i.e., the 'double portion.' No angel, or any other person, will ever have the level of Glory given to Him... other than the Father Himself.
• Jesus was a Son of God from birth. He was also a son of man thru Mary. Man is now fallen. It is hard for us to grasp that God created man in His 'image and likeness' so much that God could actually birth a Son through a woman.
• This Son would be special to God, as is our own flesh and blood... rather than just a creation.
• This was deemed God's best way to experience true fatherhood, not just to pretend to be a father.
• Jesus and God are not running a scam or a con game. Jesus is really a Son and God is now really a Father!

Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Is this is a mis-translation?

yalad, Hebrew 3205, Strong’s
yalad, yaw-lad'; a primitive root; to bear young; causative to beget; to act as midwife; specifically to show lineage :- bear, beget, birth ([-day]), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail (-eth, -ing woman).


Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

To force conscious pre-existance is to take a few verses and force a literal meaning to them and over-ride many, many, plain scriptures that simply over and over re-enforce the literal fatherhood of God, and the literal sonship of Christ.

To whatever that statement agrees with some label, I am Ok with... and to whatever degree it disagrees with tradition... I am also OK with that. Being raised Trinitarian, it was very difficult for me to consider that the church at large could have gotten this wrong. But let me ask you, are there ANY doctrines that the 'mother church' have kept pure from the beginning?

You may believe the moon is made of 'green cheese' and still get to Heaven. Salvation is not dependent upon that. As important as the sonship of Christ is, if you believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the flesh, and trust His death to pay for your sin, you can be saved... regardless of how you believe Him to have become a son. But the truth is always better. You can be saved and reject PM, but the truth is better.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I am merely presenting my understanding as the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me, and as my study and research has confirmed. From what I see, there are different versions of Unitarianism; and their common thread is denial of the Trinity. There are also those who deny the Trinity who present Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit as the same person in different manifestations. My goal is to seek truth. My simple position is:

• In the beginning God.
• We were created in God's image.
• We have body, soul, and spirit. God has a Spirit. This is the Holy Spirit, i.e., the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is omnipotent and omnipresent, and it can anoint us and indwell us. It is the thing that makes us one with Him. (Our Spirit is limited, God's is not.)
  
• God created all things because He desired to actually beget a Son.
• Jesus was begotten of the Father, making God an actual Father.
  
• The process of conception was not a sexual encounter of lust. (Mary was still a virgin after the conception.) The seed was the logos: God's spoken word that activated and merged with an egg of Mary to produce a son.
  
• Jesus from birth was chosen, but had to prove Himself faithful, which He did.
• Jesus operated by faith and the power of the Holy Spirit, just as we do.
• Jesus was born of a virgin. God was His Father; therefore, Jesus was born without sin.
• Jesus' death did two things: It was the means by which He was proven faithful, in order to be glorified, and sit and His Fathers right hand. It also atoned for sin. If sin had not entered, Jesus would have still died to enter into His Glory. If any sinned after that, repentance and forgiveness would still have been available.
  
• Jesus does not need conscious pre-existance to atone for sin and be the Son of God.
• Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is my King and Lord.
• Salvation is through grace, through faith in the sacrifice of Christ.
• Jesus has the birthright, i.e., the 'double portion.' No angel, or any other person, will ever have the level of Glory given to Him... other than the Father Himself.
• Jesus was a Son of God from birth. He was also a son of man thru Mary. Man is now fallen. It is hard for us to grasp that God created man in His 'image and likeness' so much that God could actually birth a Son through a woman.
• This Son would be special to God, as is our own flesh and blood... rather than just a creation.
• This was deemed God's best way to experience true fatherhood, not just to pretend to be a father.
• Jesus and God are not running a scam or a con game. Jesus is really a Son and God is now really a Father!

Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Is this is a mis-translation?

yalad, Hebrew 3205, Strong’s
yalad, yaw-lad'; a primitive root; to bear young; causative to beget; to act as midwife; specifically to show lineage :- bear, beget, birth ([-day]), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail (-eth, -ing woman).


Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

To force conscious pre-existance is to take a few verses and force a literal meaning to them and over-ride many, many, plain scriptures that simply over and over re-enforce the literal fatherhood of God, and the literal sonship of Christ.

To whatever that statement agrees with some label, I am Ok with... and to whatever degree it disagrees with tradition... I am also OK with that. Being raised Trinitarian, it was very difficult for me to consider that the church at large could have gotten this wrong. But let me ask you, are there ANY doctrines that the 'mother church' have kept pure from the beginning?

You may believe the moon is made of 'green cheese' and still get to Heaven. Salvation is not dependent upon that. As important as the sonship of Christ is, if you believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the flesh, and trust His death to pay for your sin, you can be saved... regardless of how you believe Him to have become a son. But the truth is always better. You can be saved and reject PM, but the truth is better.

Someone correct me but wasn't this the plot to Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2?

 

[Mojo]

• Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is my King and Lord.

So then you've put your trust and faith in a non-deity? You serve a man?

I think there's a certain commandment that discourages that.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

@ Zec funny

 

[Jim an Apostle]

So then you've put your trust and faith in a non-deity? You serve a man?

Jesus said,

John 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Jesus kept His identity separate from God. Jesus was born into the family of God, sinless as a child. He simply was not endowed with His own power at birth, but He is now fully glorified and has His own power. Where did He get it? ...from His Father! We shall be like Him! But we are sons created. He was a son born into the family! If you had a wealthy company, and a minor son, would he... at say 5 yrs of age... be able to walk in and fire someone, or change the way the plant operated? But after he became of age, and matured, and proved himself, and was made a full partner, he could. Jesus has been made a partner with His Father. His Father was God! God has now given Him the pre-eminince (and in the end Jesus turns it all over to God)!

God, the creator, had only one way to deal with sin! DEATH! Grace (the ability to restore a fallen one) only came through Jesus! Jesus' death allowed God to provide a means of redemption, and yet satisfy His own justice, and promote His son to sit at His side.

Joseph's brothers thought it wrong to promote Joseph... partly because they were there there first! God is telling us that His choice super-cedes our seniority system. Jesus was chosen from the foundation of the world! Jesus had a humble beginning, it pleased the Father to teach Him humility by giving Him a lowly start. It also pleased the Father to exalt Him to Glory and sit at His right hand. For this He does not need pre-esistance. He is God, i.e., the son of God born in His house! He now has access to the power of God and authority of God in a co-equal way; because God now trusts Him; because he was faithful through death! God has given Him a Name... why didn't He already have this name (if He was pre-existant)?

We had better accept Him the same as God. He is His beloved Son! ...yes, in a special way (one of a kind way) that only He enjoys!

Acts 3:13-15
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. [14] But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; [15] And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Jesus did not glorify Himself, nor did He raise Himself from the dead!

Philip. 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus was in the form of God, not in pre-existant Heaven. He acted as God's agent, forgave sins, and acted on God's behalf on earth. If He had been "God," then there would have been no idea of robbery to be equal with God.

He took upon him the form of a servant... rejected the offer of Satan to make him a King and the offer of the people who cried out for Him to be a King. He was was made in the likeness of men, and was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly "exalted him," and given him a name which is above every name.

If Jesus was God from all eterinty, how could God give Him anything? Why would God exalt Him... wouldn' t He exalt Himself? Would not He just be re-exalted? Why is such plain language (birth, born, begotten, son, father, exalted, made, given, ect. ) contorted by theologians? Is the Gospel, and who Jesus is, really so hard to grasp that only theoligians can grasp it?

 

[Jim an Apostle]

John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Was Jesus deceiving us? was he really God?

 

[Joleneakamama]

If Jesus was God from all eterinty, how could God give Him anything? Why would God exalt Him... wouldn' t He exalt Himself? Would not He just be re-exalted? Why is such plain language (birth, born, begotten, son, father, exalted, made, given, ect. ) contorted by theologians? Is the Gospel, and who Jesus is, really so hard to grasp that only theoligians can grasp it?

These are questions we ask others who are concerned by our questioning the trinity. We have yet to get any reasonable answers, much less any that satisfactorily resolve all the issues those questions raise.