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The ONLY two created in the beginning?

I believe the term is tectonics. There was a period in history where the earth split and various regions moved away from one another. Kangeroos, and people for that matter, were able to spread over all of the earth at that time by land. This took place around Genesis 10-11. At one point all land masses were connected. Then they split as God split up the human races.

Biblical support for this plate tectonics is Gen. 10:25 and 1 Chronicles 1:19. The text in 1 Chronicles specifically says that in his day the earth was divided. Peleg, the name in Gen. also means division.

The historian and scholar Josephus held to this view as the proper view of how the land masses and nations developed. James Ussher another scholar held to this view as well. Dr. James. Robinson Graves also held to this view.
 
Isabella said:
I read Dr. Allen's post, unfortunately it all went over my head so I am afraid it makes little sense to me. Like I said, I am not very versed in this, I was just going by the text.

We know from archaeology that people did not live that long, I don't understand how you can say that when the evidence disprove a super long life span but well....I suppose it is up to you what you believe.

Thanks for replying though.

regards,
Bels

Ok.

The Genesis account is not the only reference in the Bible to Adam and mankind. So if we are dealing with a passage that seems to be vague in a certain area, we should be able to use the other Bible verses that address the topic to figure out which hypothesis is true. Regarding whether or not Adam and Eve were the only ones created, we confirm this to be true from Acts 17:26 where we find God saying all people came forth from one man.

"From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live."

If there were other men created then there would not be "one man" that every nation comes from, and the Bible would be untrue. A passage that shows that Adam and Eve were the first ones created is Romans 5:12-14.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Here we see that sin and death entered through one man and that man is Adam. So in both cases, the testimony of scripture is that the Genesis account of Adam and Eve can be understood that they were the first humans created by God, and that they were the only ones created, or there would be others that were outside the bloodline, and of different lineage, and not under sin or death.

So even though Genesis does not have a verse that reads "they were the only ones created ever", by comparing other parts of the Bible to that topic, we see that they were the only ones created, and they were the first.

I will answer the other statement regarding life span in a different post, and then address the issue of the continents drifting.
 
Isabella said:
I don't think I see 'sin' mentioned anywhere.


Actually it's the concept of sin and what sin is. Remember we read in 1 John 3:4 that sin is the transgression of the Law/Torah. So when we don't follow the Torah, or the commandments of Yahuweh, then we sin. Back in the beginning there was only one command. "Do not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Eating of the fruit = disobeying the one command at the time = sin.

Isabella said:
Still I wonder how the Kangeroos faced getting to the Ark all the way from Australia?


Aaahhh, yes, but when we read that the whole earth was covered by the flood, does it really mean the "whole" earth or just the known earth. I present to you:

Exodus 10:15 said:
For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt. - KJV

Exodus 10:15 said:
And they covered the surface of all the land, so that the land was darkened. And they ate every plant of the land and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left, and no greenness was left on the trees or on the plants of the field, in all the land of Mitsrayim. - The Scriptures

Genesis 7:20 said:
The waters became mighty, fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered. - The Scriptures


By my calculations 15 cubits is only 22.5 feet. Certainly all the mountains weren't shorter back then.
 
Paul not the apostle said:
...then we have a problem with resolving this with scripture because we would have a line of men not from Adam and Eve, and outside the realm of sin that brings death through Adam.


But is it not possible that Adam and/or his lineage influenced the "others" into sinning just as the serpent did with Eve and Eve with Adam? This would still hold true the fact that one man brought sin into the world.
 
Paul not the apostle said:
Regarding whether or not Adam and Eve were the only ones created, we confirm this to be true from Acts 17:26 where we find God saying all people came forth from one man.


Shhh!! Stop it! :D
 
I do believe that the whole world (earth) was spoken of in Genesis.

Perhaps, "the waters were mighty" and the 15 cubits was an increase above the already existing flood level?
 
The Duke Of Marshall said:
Paul not the apostle said:
...then we have a problem with resolving this with scripture because we would have a line of men not from Adam and Eve, and outside the realm of sin that brings death through Adam.


But is it not possible that Adam and/or his lineage influenced the "others" into sinning just as the serpent did with Eve and Eve with Adam? This would still hold true the fact that one man brought sin into the world.

If the sin was eating the fruit, and God removed them from the Garden, then how did they influence others to eat of that fruit and sin? The angel that guarded the Garden was overpowered by the people in order to eat the fruit that caused Adam and Eve to be in sin? This does not add up.
 
Paul not the apostle said:
If the sin was eating the fruit, and God removed them from the Garden, then how did they influence others to eat of that fruit and sin? The angel that guarded the Garden was overpowered by the people in order to eat the fruit that caused Adam and Eve to be in sin? This does not add up.

Ok, I think this is just getting silly now. One of the reasons why you all have such trouble making sense of the Bible is purely because, it is pretty inconsistent. I think it is just better to agree to disagree and kiss and make up!!

:P

B
x
 
Todd said:
But is it not possible that Adam and/or his lineage influenced the "others" into sinning just as the serpent did with Eve and Eve with Adam? This would still hold true the fact that one man brought sin into the world.

There is a golden rule of how to approach language or literature when doing an analysis of it. We call it the historical, grammatical, and literary rule. We define the words in the historical context. We interpret words in their precise grammatical structure. We examine the book or text in its overall literary style (poetry, wisdom, legal, prophecy, etc). Some call it genre analysis, but that is sometimes stretched too far and in ways I do not mean here. In short some simply call it literal interpretation.

As for the Greek grammar of Romans 5:12 it will not do to say that Adam influenced others to sin later. The text by the actual rules of grammar demand that we accept the idea that when Adam sinned his sin at that very moment placed all of humanity inside of him as guilty before God. the English translations get it basically right by saying: When Adam sinned all sinned." they rightly connect our sin to his sin. When he sinned we did to, or at least we were charged with it in God's mind. Interestingly too we can see this plays out experientially for Eve. As soon as Adam ate it was then (not before) that Eve's eyes were opened. She was not charged or guilty of sin before God until her head ate and he, as her perfect representation (her head), imputed sin to her as the head to the body. That historically as we see in it Genesis is confirmed by Romans 5:12 by the tenses of the verb. When Adam sinned ALL SINNED. Al of humanity at that very moment stood guilty before God.

Theologians have come up with a term to describe this. It is called the doctrine of Imputation. Adam's sin was imputed, or charged, to the whole human race as soon as he disobeyed God's law. That was imputed, put to all of mankind's account. Why? Because Adam, as the name suggests, was the representative and perfect head of the race and he stood in our place and he did what we would have done had we been there. But, in a sense we WERE there because we were in his loins, we were all in Adam in seminal form. So when he acted we with him acted.

The doctrine of Christ's righteousness as the second Adam also plays into this. Our sins were imputed to him and his righteousness is imputed to us. he bore our sins and we now wear his righteousness. Some want to reject the doctrine of Adam's imputation of sin to us but that is inconsistent if we accept Christ as the second Adam. Christ as the second Adam fulfilled what the first did not. He lived righteously so that when he paid our debt our sins were imputed to him in exchange for his righteouness being imputed to us (Romans 5:12-20).

Another rule beyond the grammar rule is the literary analysis rule. That is that we start with the clear direct statements in any piece of literature (Scripture, legal texts, law books, fictional books etc) and build from that. There is about a sixfold breakdown of authority or degrees of authority in statements in literature.

The first three levels are 1. Direct Statements, 2. Direct Implications, 3. Logical Inferences.

The next levels include general assumptions from science or common grace revelation and outright speculation.

In this case I always ask someone, is not the burden of proof on the one wanting to build a view that has no direct statement from Scripture? Seems like to me this is what people do against the doctrine of marriage all the time. They build their theology on sub-levels of 4-6 or so type ideas and use the less clear to overrule the clearer texts of Scripture.

I'm always curious as to motive too when this is where people begin. If we have direct statements of Scripture to lay as our foundation to work upward from I am always curious as to why we would begin with an unclear statement or a speculative idea and then try and build upon that as our chief foundation to the rest of the ideas as we try and make those direct statements fit into our proposed speculative idea.

That type of literature analysis is not accepted for any piece of other literature in any respectable field. So I would suggest that we do not start with it in our approach to the Bible either if we want to arrive at respectable conclusions that honor the totality of Scripture as a whole.

In this case we have no hint of any other human alive, we have direct statements that Adam's sin ruined the whole human race, that when he sinned all actually sinned at that moment in time, his name represents and means all of mankind, Acts tells us all came from him, and no Scripture anywhere else gives a direct or even an implied hint that others were alive before them or with them.

Thus the burden of proof would seem to rest on those who want to start there and try and make the rest of Scripture fit into a speculation or theory instead of building our views upon the clear and direct statements we do have. If there is a specific text of Scripture that says something else then that might be another game to work with. But in the absence of a text or set of texts it seems like an approach to literature that is not on safe methodological grounds.
 
Paul not the apostle said:
The Duke Of Marshall said:
If the sin was eating the fruit, and God removed them from the Garden, then how did they influence others to eat of that fruit and sin?


Good point. Though let me ask you this: We know that murder is a sin and Cain sinned against Abel. This isn't specifically recorded/stated before Mt. Sinai as are other sins that are present before the exodus. Such as homosexuality (i.e. Sodom & Gomorrah). So how is it that any people are sinful between the times of Eden and Mt Sinai?
 
One of the reasons why you all have such trouble making sense of the Bible is purely because, it is pretty inconsistent.

Isabella,

There is a difference in US NOT UNDERSTANDING something and there being an ACTUAL CONTRADICTION.

We finite humans struggle to make sense of a divine book sometimes.

But, as you and I have discussed for some time now, if the Lord Jesus, who died for our sins, arose again on the third day, and is coming back again comes to live in us he gives us his Spirit. That Spirit confirms in our heart that the Bible is without error and that it is truly to be believed in all parts.

I'm still praying you'll one day you'll embrace this living Lord Jesus and then the veil will be removed from your eyes and you'll see the same thing that we see, a perfect book, a divine love book, a book that tells us about the greatest love story ever known to mankind, a love book where we find grace, redemption, cleansing from our own conscience that haunts us at times.

I know I know I know there is so much you've examined before. And no doubt you are a wonderful woman with a great deal of study already from so many different angles. But I'd love for you to still take me up on the offer I have made to you in the past on a particular study by someone who was on a similar road you are on. I think you would find it refreshing and liberating.
 
John Whitten said:
Perhaps, "the waters were mighty" and the 15 cubits was an increase above the already existing flood level?

That would be the only logical conclusion if the entirety of the earth were covered.
 
Isabella said:
Paul not the apostle said:
If the sin was eating the fruit, and God removed them from the Garden, then how did they influence others to eat of that fruit and sin? The angel that guarded the Garden was overpowered by the people in order to eat the fruit that caused Adam and Eve to be in sin? This does not add up.

Ok, I think this is just getting silly now. One of the reasons why you all have such trouble making sense of the Bible is purely because, it is pretty inconsistent. I think it is just better to agree to disagree and kiss and make up!!

:P

B
x

I was joking with those comments, and I thought that it would be obvious. I was making a point about Adam and Eve influencing other people to sin. Todd referenced the eating of the fruit as the original sin, and I was using the example that he gave and expanded it with those comments to show that by the premise of the theory, the theory defeated itself. If God kicked them out, then any others that wanted to be influenced into committing that same sin would have to go back to the garden and eat the fruit. The garden was guarded by an angel....nevermind.

I really feel like because you believe the Bible to be inconsistent, you have shielded yourself from the truth that it contains. Todd and I are good friends, we have eaten together, prayed together, laughed, etc....but never kissed. Although the Word says to greet one another with a holy one....LOOK OUT TODD!!
 
Isabella said:
it makes little sense to me. Like I said, I am not very versed in this

One of the reasons why you all have such trouble making sense of the Bible is purely because, it is pretty inconsistent. I think it is just better to agree to disagree and kiss and make up!!

:P

B
x

We are not having trouble, we are simply discussing a topic and logically seeking to weigh scripture with scripture. If you are not very versed, then how can you claim any biblical inconsistency? Please list out several inconsistencies for us to review. Please don't google anything, just tell us what you know personally to be inconsistent. I would consider it a huge service to us. We would appreciate any knowledge that would help us to know truth, even if we are shown to be wrong.
 
The Duke Of Marshall said:
Paul not the apostle said:
The Duke Of Marshall said:
If the sin was eating the fruit, and God removed them from the Garden, then how did they influence others to eat of that fruit and sin?


Good point. Though let me ask you this: We know that murder is a sin and Cain sinned against Abel. This isn't specifically recorded/stated before Mt. Sinai as are other sins that are present before the exodus. Such as homosexuality (i.e. Sodom & Gomorrah). So how is it that any people are sinful between the times of Eden and Mt Sinai?

Could we save this for another thread? Or just put it on hold? There are so many factors in this question, such as...

what is your definition of "law"? only the torah?
did God give any instructions to Adam? wouldn't the "do not eat" qualify as a law?

The basic truth is that there were laws given before Sinai. Scripture makes it clear that this is true. Because we call the Ten and all ordinances given throughout the Pent "The Law", we fail to remember that there was law and rule before Sinai. There are so many things in the Bible that we don't realize because we don't study and list things out. Here's one that is cool:

Noah was still living when Abraham was walking the earth. Look at the names, add up the years and when they were born, and you will see this to be true. Interesting, no? Just like Adam being alive when Noah's father Lamech walked the earth.
 
The Duke Of Marshall said:
Ok,
So people were proposing theories in another thread and it got me to remembering a theory I have had and wanted to get everyone's opinion on.

The Scriptures are pretty much centered around the Hebrew people from start to finish. As such, could it be that Adam and Eve WEREN'T the only two people created in the beginning, but rather they are the only two people mentioned in Scripture because they were the beginning of the Hebrew race? This would help to answer the question of where Seth and Cain found wives without subjecting themselves to incest. Maybe others were created right after Adam and Eve that were the ancestors of other lineages.

Thoughts?
ya know, when a guy starts questioning the trinity theres no tellin where he will go :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)

btw; how do we know that there were mountains before the flood? what if the land mass was only one foot above sea level before YHWH started playing chess with it? there being no rain, drainage would not have been a problem.
 
All I can say is ...

Good one, Bels! Ya really got 'em going!

Personally, I come from a long line of dead people, and am trying to sire a long line of live ones. As for the rest of this ...

Sir BumbleBerry insists that his ancestors sneaked onto the ark riding in a coupla kangaroo pouches. And they DEFINITELY hopped. All except for one small joey, who tucked himself into a ball and rolled. He was the mammalian ancestor of Johnathon Livingston Seagull. And that's ALL he'll say on this subject. Except that his family legends insist that kangaroo milk tastes really strange!
 
Ok, lets see, someone wants more people in the garden. How about this.

I can not find anything that says that Cain and Abel and Seth were the only children Adam and Eve had or there were no sexual relations till Cain in the fourth chapter of Genesis or the fall in the third. Cain and Abel were the first mentioned, but then most of the human race is never mentioned in the bible by name anyway. Adam and Eve were created before the fall and there is no reason to say that Adam 'knew' (had sex with) Eve for the first time in a delayed fashion when she conceived Cain. Actually this implies they disobeyed God and were not fruitful and multiply until Cain. If that were true, not being fruitful and multiplying would have been directly disobedient to God (Gen 1:28) and a sin. Since sin had not come yet they were not disobedient and they were already fruitful and multiplied. The story about Cain and Abel's accepted/not accepted offering may include telling us who they were, but does not exclude any other well behaved siblings. Why would anyone have a problem with Adam and Eve reproducing before the fall or Cain? I get the idea that everything else around them were reproducing and filling nature valley before the fall quite readily (birds, bees, etc.) Why not Adam? (especially since God told him to)(Gen 1:28). It is ridiculous to think that someone (Adam and Eve, good healthy and barefoot, actually more bare than barefoot) with no knowledge of good and evil would refrain from sex until the fall. The fall did not make them fertile anymore than being prior sinless make them barren. What I really want someone to do is let me listen while they stand in the garden and try to convince Adam and Eve to not have sex or procreate until the fall or until Cain and Abel, or this conversation.

God: ……….Adam! please meet Eve.

Adam…………hello eve…..nice uh, uh,, nice feet

God………….Eve! please meet Adam.

Eve………….Nice …..uh, uh nice Adam’s apple?

God………….This is your garden. Please be fruitful and multiply at a later date???????

Adam…………What do you want us to do now?.

God ………….Not much, watch the rabbits, doves, horny toads, etc.

Adam………….Ok, I think

Eve…………….I guess that just leaves shopping

God……………Whatever, try not to bump into each other.

Don’t you just love my theology?. I base it on WWJD (What would Jesus Do) and WWAD (What Would Adam Do)
 
Gen 7:18-22
And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: all in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
From this, I would say there were mountains before the flood. I would also gather that the flood was universal, if all flesh on the earth died as a result of the flood. Not proof, but what I see the Bible saying.
 
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