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The sin of having twins

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Shadowjak's Dancer

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Okay, so I do not believe that having twins is a sin.

However, is it just me, or has anyone else noticed how many Christians like to blame Abraham's (supposedly sinful) decision to take a concubine and produce Ishmael is something that we are "still dealing with the consequences of to this day..."?

I mean, Isaac had twins, and Israel's problems with the Edomites were a direct result of that event, right?

Obviously, there seems to be a bias here. Or is it just me?
 
Awesome Headline, you totally sucked me in.. .like a moth to it's delight (bad psalm paraphrase)...

I know Jimmy Carter claimed there would be no Middle Eastern conflict if not for the Yitzchak-Ishmael issue...
It's an interesting question since it was Sarah's idea.
I've had some trouble with Sarah's driving off Hagar... this seems to be the real issue at hand. Not fathering the child but kicking him out!
Would Ishmael have married Canaanites if he had been allowed to stay at home under his father's influence?
Sarah's objections are strange too saying she doesn't want Ishmael to inherit with her son but if he's a concubine's son then he only gets gifts (like Abraham's other children received after Sarah's death).

I think an honest evaluation of the story (if we don't know tradition, and midrashes and such) would be to blame Sarah.
1. She beat Hagar
2. She evicted Hagar and Hagar's boy whom Abraham also loved (as indicated by the text saying it was evil in Abraham's eyes).

That being said, here's the traditional position of the sages.
Ishmael did something sexually bad to Yitzchak. This is what made Sarah react out of maternal instinct to protect her son.
So, if we take the sages at their word and believe tradition, then the story goes a different way.
Ishmael is to blame for the trouble we have today because he was a pervert and he still is a trouble maker with his "fist against everyone else".
Yimach sh'mo
 
Yes, the title was a fair bit of "clickbait", wasn't it?

Actually, I think blaming the actions of anyone thousands of years ago for the actions of people today can be a bit of an oversimplification. Going through Kings and Chronicles, I've always felt that each generation, and the individuals in that generation, are largely responsible for themselves. Some did according to the works of David, and some according to the works of Jeroboam, son of Nebat. Sure, the fathers set the stage for certain things, but each generation has the opportunity to decide what they will make of their time on this earth.

Or else, what separated Ruth from the other Moabites?

Why did Yeshua's Disciples act in faith in an otherwise wicked generation? Whereas the fact that their generation was specifically called out, as opposed to the people group as a whole and for all time, indicates a certain generational responsibility.

That doesn't mean there aren't certain trends, but when we look at the fact that the same prophetic words as were spoken over Levi were also spoken over Simeon when Jacob blessed his sons, but that the fate of those tribes were quite different... one must ask if the varied manifestation had anything to do with how the tribes responded differently to the Almighty.

Either way, I don't think one can wholly, if at all, blame a guy thousands of years ago having a concubine for the problems with the Muslim world, any more than the problems between Jacob and Esau on the farcical "sin of having twins".
 
OK. When I saw the thread title, my mind took this in a different direction. Having twins is indeed a sin. ;)

Start by looking at God's ideal in Genesis. Adam and Eve gave birth to a single firstborn son, Cain -- not Cain and Shane. Women were clearly designed by God to give birth to only a single child at a time. Anything more than that is a perversion of God's original perfect design.

Besides, just look at the consequences. Whenever we see twins in the Bible, they are always fighting, and accompanied by strife and division. Esau profaned his birthright, and Jacob was a deceiver. God even said "Esau have I hated." Furthermore, verses like "train up a child in the way he should go" clearly presume only a single child, not twins.

God may have tolerated twinship in the Old Testament, but we are called to a higher standard in the New Testament. There, the Father-Son relationship is revealed to be a sacred picture of the mystical union within the Trinity, between Jesus and God the Father. Jesus was the Son of God, and he was a single man, not a twin! Being a twin degrades this image, and is therefore sinful.
 
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I wish I could give your post more than one like @Shibboleth
 
Ja
OK. When I saw the thread title, my mind took this in a different direction. Having twins is indeed a sin. ;)

Start by looking at God's ideal in Genesis. Adam and Eve gave birth to a single firstborn son, Cain -- not Cain and Shane. Women were clearly designed by God to give birth to only a single child at a time. Anything more than that is a perversion of God's original perfect design.

Besides, just look at the consequences. Whenever we see twins in the Bible, they are always fighting, and accompanied by strife and division. Esau profaned his birthright, and Jacob was a deceiver. God even said "Esau have I hated." Furthermore, verses like "train up a child in the way he should go" clearly presume only a single child, not twins.

God may have tolerated twinship in the Old Testament, but we are called to a higher standard in the New Testament. There, the Father-Son relationship is revealed to be a sacred picture of the mystical union within the Trinity, between Jesus and God the Father. Jesus was the Son of God, and he was a single man, not a twin! Being a twin degrades this image, and is therefore sinful.
Jacob avinu was righteous. Not a "deceiver".
His brother was wicked and his righteous mother even knew it.

If you want proof texts I'll send a slew...
 
Ja

Jacob avinu was righteous. Not a "deceiver".
His brother was wicked and his righteous mother even knew it.

If you want proof texts I'll send a slew...
I think its safe to say that @Shibboleth was posting tongue in cheek. He was inserting the word twin as a replacement for the second wife as used in most theological? Attacks by the "God fearing".

As to the righteous vrs. deceiver part, I seem to remember him impersonating his brother to deceive his father into giving him the birthright. Also voodooing the cattle to make them produce calves that would become his.

Did he become more righteous later in life? Sure, but he wasn't always that way.
 
Yes, the title was a fair bit of "clickbait", wasn't it?

Actually, I think blaming the actions of anyone thousands of years ago for the actions of people today can be a bit of an oversimplification. Going through Kings and Chronicles, I've always felt that each generation, and the individuals in that generation, are largely responsible for themselves. Some did according to the works of David, and some according to the works of Jeroboam, son of Nebat. Sure, the fathers set the stage for certain things, but each generation has the opportunity to decide what they will make of their time on this earth.

Or else, what separated Ruth from the other Moabites?

Why did Yeshua's Disciples act in faith in an otherwise wicked generation? Whereas the fact that their generation was specifically called out, as opposed to the people group as a whole and for all time, indicates a certain generational responsibility.

That doesn't mean there aren't certain trends, but when we look at the fact that the same prophetic words as were spoken over Levi were also spoken over Simeon when Jacob blessed his sons, but that the fate of those tribes were quite different... one must ask if the varied manifestation had anything to do with how the tribes responded differently to the Almighty.

Either way, I don't think one can wholly, if at all, blame a guy thousands of years ago having a concubine for the problems with the Muslim world, any more than the problems between Jacob and Esau on the farcical "sin of having twins".
Yes, I totally agree but the context is Christians bringing up the situation of one of Avraham's concubines as sinful. For making a point I think it's better to steer them in another direction than just "everyone is responsible for,their own sins" because that doesn't alleviate the point they are making that it was sinful. We may guide them away from blaming the Arab mess on him but they still think he acted in error.
I think its safe to say that @Shibboleth was posting tongue in cheek. He was inserting the word twin as a replacement for the second wife as used in most theological? Attacks by the "God fearing".

As to the righteous vrs. deceiver part, I seem to remember him impersonating his brother to deceive his father into giving him the birthright. Also voodooing the cattle to make them produce calves that would become his.

Did he become more righteous later in life? Sure, but he wasn't always that way.

Tongue in cheek part I got but cant let "deceiver" title stand for one of history's greatest men. It's
Also a violation of כבד את אביך ואת אמך Honor your father and mother.
Regarding the birthright, he didn't steal it; he purchased it and his wicked brother planned on using it anyway (fraudulently)
In fact Jacob reluctantly did the whole hairy coat procedure only out of respect for his mother, and following the honor your mother command did he follow through, fearfully. He owned the birthright, and we know He was chosen by G-d because Esau is "hated".
Regarding Laban, that's the liar. You truly think Jacob was not just in making sure his diabolical wife-switchin, wage changing,idol-worshipping father-in-law gave him what was rightfully his? Seriously, in what
Way did Jacob take anything from Laban that he did not deserve?
Even his wives were witnesses that their father treated them like property. If Hashem hadn't intervened with a dream
The wicked Laban would have murdered Jacob and stolen everything back.
So ... No he didn't "become goodmlater in life", he was consistantly a great tsadiyk righteous man.
Sorry typos I am on tab and for some reason in forums it isnsuuuper slow on my tab.
 
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So it's ok for him to deceive his father as long as he's in collusion with his deceptive mother? Sorry, that's a level of rational that boggles the mind.

Also, because he's "one of histories greatest men" doesn't mean that he was perfect and upright before God. Sorry, I've yet to find that designation anywhere.

Was he an impressive historical figure, absolutely. Was he perfect, hardly. A deceiver, definitely.

Is it breaking the commandment to honor your father and mother to say such things? Really?

So your brother is about to pass out from hunger, and you refuse basic hospitality to your family until he agrees to hand over the birthright? Fine upstanding young man there! I think I'll have to focus my efforts in training my son so that he can become just like Jacob!
 
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I have to agree, Jacob had some extreme character flaws. I am reading between the lines here but sometimes those of us who subscribe to Hebrew roots or are some level of Torah observant can get a little too worshipful of some things that are the traditions of post-Christian Judaism. But many of these things are fairly recent inventions and very few of them have a basis in scripture. We can't make the opposite mistake that main stream Christianity has, they've rejected vital parts of the Old Testament to live a faith that was never prescribed in the New Testament. The other great trap is to raise the teachings of men to the level of Scripture. Remember that the enemy of our soul will use our own momentum against us. If we're headed in a direction he will give us a push to see if he can get us out of bounds in one direction or the other. God has always worked through incredibly flawed people and Jacob is no exception.

Sorry about getting preachy by this is an issue I care deeply about .
 
So it's ok for him to deceive his father as long as he's in collusion with his deceptive mother? Sorry, that's a level of rational that boggles the mind.

Also, because he's "one of histories greatest men" doesn't mean that he was perfect and upright before God. Sorry, I've yet to find that designation anywhere.

Was he an impressive historical figure, absolutely. Was he perfect, hardly. A deceiver, definitely.

Is it breaking the commandment to honor your father and mother to say such things? Really?

So your brother is about to pass out from hunger, and you refuse basic hospitality to your family until he agrees to hand over the birthright? Fine upstanding young man there! I think I'll have to focus my efforts in training my son so that he can become just like Jacob!
So it's ok for him to deceive his father as long as he's in collusion with his deceptive mother? Sorry, that's a level of rational that boggles the mind.

Also, because he's "one of histories greatest men" doesn't mean that he was perfect and upright before God. Sorry, I've yet to find that designation anywhere.

Was he an impressive historical figure, absolutely. Was he perfect, hardly. A deceiver, definitely.

Is it breaking the commandment to honor your father and mother to say such things? Really?

So your brother is about to pass out from hunger, and you refuse basic hospitality to your family until he agrees to hand over the birthright? Fine upstanding young man there! I think I'll have to focus my efforts in training my son so that he can become just like Jacob!
**********************
So let's take your statements one at a time:
I concede that he deceived his father. How does this make him a "deceiver?"
Have you ever lied to someone? Has it ever been a big lie? So are you a "Deceiver"? Would it be fair for someone to label you as a "Deceiver"?
Such a title implies a chronic behavior. He was worthwhile enough that in all these times in life when these things were happening, G-d is still revealing himself to Jacob mightily; and blessing him.

OK I guess if Jacob isn't your father then it isn't breaking a commandment but I thought those who aren't from his lineage are still grafted into the commonwealth of Israel (aka Jacob) so if you trust Paul then even if you aren't a natural descendant of Jacob then you are still adopted descendant so yes.
Applying chronic bad behavior labels on him like "Deceiver' is *absolutely* a crime of dishonoring our father Israel.

How can you say he was a "deceiver, definitely"?
Please consider rethinking what you are doing brother.
 
I have to agree, Jacob had some extreme character flaws. I am reading between the lines here but sometimes those of us who subscribe to Hebrew roots or are some level of Torah observant can get a little too worshipful of some things that are the traditions of post-Christian Judaism. But many of these things are fairly recent inventions and very few of them have a basis in scripture. We can't make the opposite mistake that main stream Christianity has, they've rejected vital parts of the Old Testament to live a faith that was never prescribed in the New Testament. The other great trap is to raise the teachings of men to the level of Scripture. Remember that the enemy of our soul will use our own momentum against us. If we're headed in a direction he will give us a push to see if he can get us out of bounds in one direction or the other. God has always worked through incredibly flawed people and Jacob is no exception.

Sorry about getting preachy by this is an issue I care deeply about .

OK nice line-reading, but I'm a Jew, not a Hebrew roots guy, or Sacred Namers group or one of those grafted in groups [not a knock on grated in peeps, welcome to the tribe yo]).

I take issue with the perspective that any cultural knowledge about our ancestors that didn't survive into the biblical cannon must have been invented
by those rascally Pharisees in a post Christian era. Please. The Gentile church divorced itself from it's Jewish roots in absolute arrogance and ignoring Paul's teaching and never looked back. .... must .... resist.... rant.... I find it humorous when Gentiles who decided to keep torah warn of Jewish insights (ie traditions) on how to do just that. If you are a torah-keeping Gentile ..it's the Gentile traditions and lack of torah insight, and ad hoc wisdom need you need to be concerned about. There's the full gambit from pronouncing the Holy Name in funny and new ways , or just saying it as often as possible with no concept at all of what holiness is, to those Who kill their own animals on Passover, and on and on. ...,ok ...regaining ..., control over rant....
phew

OK I'm back. So it's quite simple.
Jacob is my father and I don't like him being bashed. If you are grafted in whatever that means to you, then perhaps he's your father too.
If he is your father, then labeling him a deceiver is not kosher any more than calling your grandfather an "abusive alcoholic" if he got drunk 1 time in his whole life and beat a horse.
The bible never impunes his mother for what she did in helping assure he got the birthright.
Whatever she saw in Esau's character bore itself out in his later life's sins (even married forbidden women against his parents' wishes; yeah but somehow in the church Jacob has become the evil one in youth. So we are to believe Esau was good and later became bad? Come on. [may have been the other gentleman who inferred Jacob was bad and became good; I'm sleepy and could have posts mixed].
Also, regarding Jacob's mom, G-d uses women sometimes to steer a man.
So yes, Jacob tricked Yitzchak (fearfully) as ordered by his mother (never judged by bible for this) in order to obtain what was rightfully his.

Yes, Jacob used "voodoo" (I actually thought that was funny btw) to make sure he got his contractually agreed wage from the greedy, idol-worshipping, thieving, murderous, wife-swapping, deal breaking, Laban. That makes Jacob a "Deceiver"?

Give me a break. No need to "worship" someone to honor them and not assign unfair titles.

peace
 
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One more thought....
What I love about PM-minded people is they are the kind of people who usually know the bible and also are used to really thinking through the truth; not
just the traditions of men. Often the Gentile church traditions are to look at things through their own traditions.
I.e. Jacob is a deciever, etc. these traditions also have a source and if your tradition is Protestant then pause and reflect on the absolute Satanic mess that was the founder, Martin Luther.

So I'm asking you guys to use that wisdom G-d has given you and that Pharisaical-Jewish-Berean spirit of searching and rethinking.
Hope I didn't ruff any feathers too much; sometimes I'm too direct and that can be a clash with other cultures.
Now I'm back, and humbly asking you gentlemen rethink your views of Jacob, even young Jacob and think where you may have 1st heard that he was a "deceiver" or "liar' or any other mean labels. Now think if the person you first heard that from would look kindly at PM? What they would say about us?
In general here I don't want to get too off topic with denominational issues as we should be united on this huge issue and all the peace and love and righteous souls we can bring in the world with it.

If it ever sounds like I'm being hostile, please remember text without tone is only half the picture.
b'ahavat Avinu
 
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Just calling it like I read it. From the meaning of his name,(which means the supplanter, manipulator, deceiver, cheater) to the character of his life until he becomes Israel (one who has wrestled with God)
Is it disrespectful to call it as men more wise than I have called it?
Is it not dishonest to try to whitewash the sins of the fathers in an effort to "honor" them.
Jacob was a deceiver and manipulator extraordinaire until the day that he wrestled with God and learned to let Him have his will done as HE sees fit. After that he began to have favor (power) with God and man without the manipulation that so marked his days till that point.

I find it very interesting how Hosea 12 compares Jacob with Ephraim. Even post-mortem, Hosea notes that YHWH will punish Jacob according to his ways and according to his doings (or works) will he recompense him. Hosea gives Ephraim a comparison that even though they have been like Jacob was, that if they will turn to the LORD that he will have mercy upon those who have held deceitful balances in their hand and who love to oppress or gain the upper hand.

Ephraim feedeth on wind, and followeth after the east wind: he daily increaseth lies and desolation; and they do make a covenant with the Assyrians, and oil is carried into Egypt.
The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.
He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.
Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually.
He is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand: he loveth to oppress.
And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found me out substance: in all my labours they shall find none iniquity in me that were sin.

I take no offense from anything in this thread, I think its been a great thread. I also agree that those who are polygyny minded are often allowed a higher level of understanding as they seek to follow truth. However, I am also aware that truth is no respecter of persons. Jacob is not excluded from the truth about his actions in Scripture nor are they whitewashed. Not so that we can use those facts to dishonor him, but as Solomon says, so that we, as wise men, may learn from even a . . . . ., well, an imperfect man. By doing anything less than aligning ourselves with evident, obvious truth, no matter where that leads, we destroy our own credibility and veracity and bring dishonor upon the one we claim to follow as well as any peripheral causes that we champion.
 
Just a minor point on the subject of Jacob. I'm not aware of a verse that tells us if Isaac was aware of the deal made between those brothers. He may have been ignorant. But remember what the Lord told Rebecca about those twins before they were born? "The elder will serve the younger!" It has always seemed grossly unfair to me that Isaac had such a favorite, that he made his own son a servant to the favored twin. I think it is poetic justice that is backfired on him, and he ended up making his favorite the servant!
The almighty has always made His people honor their own contracts. Isaac should have been aware of what the Lord had said about the boys. Was he willfully going against what had been spoken?
 
I will need a lot of time and full sized key board to respond to all of that but let me point out a few things, all men are deceitful and desperately wicked. That is in scripture and it would catch Jacob up in its very wide net. It would not be disrespectful to call your grandfather an abusive alcoholic if he habitually got drunk and beat people up. And it was a sin to try and use deceit and guile (twice) to claim what God had already promised him. Now I'm mot saying Jacob isn't a lion of the faith. He is. God blessed the whole world through him and turned him into nations. But there's no need to idolize the man. His record, good and bad, speaks foe itself.

Lastly, if something is not in scripture then we can't teach it as God's Truth. This was Martin Luther's (also a lion of the faith and the most important figure to not be in the Bible. Satanic mess? Come on man. He even supported polygyny! The guy didn't go far enough but he was still amazing.) great realization. Scripture always trumps the traditions of men. Always. I am very excited though about your loyalty to Paul. That is where people so frequently go wrong.
 
I will need a lot of time and full sized key board to respond to all of that but let me point out a few things, all men are deceitful and desperately wicked. That is in scripture and it would catch Jacob up in its very wide net. It would not be disrespectful to call your grandfather an abusive alcoholic if he habitually got drunk and beat people up. And it was a sin to try and use deceit and guile (twice) to claim what God had already promised him. Now I'm mot saying Jacob isn't a lion of the faith. He is. God blessed the whole world through him and turned him into nations. But there's no need to idolize the man. His record, good and bad, speaks foe itself.

Lastly, if something is not in scripture then we can't teach it as God's Truth. This was Martin Luther's (also a lion of the faith and the most important figure to not be in the Bible. Satanic mess? Come on man. He even supported polygyny! The guy didn't go far enough but he was still amazing.) great realization. Scripture always trumps the traditions of men. Always. I am very excited though about your loyalty to Paul. That is where people so frequently go wrong.

resisting labels such as "liar, deceiver, cheater" is not idolozing; it is in point of fact keeping the middle ground that such harmful labels of excess try to erode.
 
Just calling it like I read it. From the meaning of his name,(which means the supplanter, manipulator, deceiver, cheater) to the character of his life until he becomes Israel (one who has wrestled with God)
Is it disrespectful to call it as men more wise than I have called it?
Is it not dishonest to try to whitewash the sins of the fathers in an effort to "honor" them.
Jacob was a deceiver and manipulator extraordinaire until the day that he wrestled with God and learned to let Him have his will done as HE sees fit. After that he began to have favor (power) with God and man without the manipulation that so marked his days till that point.

I find it very interesting how Hosea 12 compares Jacob with Ephraim. Even post-mortem, Hosea notes that YHWH will punish Jacob according to his ways and according to his doings (or works) will he recompense him. Hosea gives Ephraim a comparison that even though they have been like Jacob was, that if they will turn to the LORD that he will have mercy upon those who have held deceitful balances in their hand and who love to oppress or gain the upper hand.

Ephraim feedeth on wind, and followeth after the east wind: he daily increaseth lies and desolation; and they do make a covenant with the Assyrians, and oil is carried into Egypt.
The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.
He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.
Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually.
He is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand: he loveth to oppress.
And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found me out substance: in all my labours they shall find none iniquity in me that were sin.

I take no offense from anything in this thread, I think its been a great thread. I also agree that those who are polygyny minded are often allowed a higher level of understanding as they seek to follow truth. However, I am also aware that truth is no respecter of persons. Jacob is not excluded from the truth about his actions in Scripture nor are they whitewashed. Not so that we can use those facts to dishonor him, but as Solomon says, so that we, as wise men, may learn from even a . . . . ., well, an imperfect man. By doing anything less than aligning ourselves with evident, obvious truth, no matter where that leads, we destroy our own credibility and veracity and bring dishonor upon the one we claim to follow as well as any peripheral causes that we champion.


OK brother, you made some bold and frankly very very erroneous claims about the Hebrew name of Jacob.
First let me share that when I read Genesis, I only read it in the original Hebrew language without a dictionary. Not an interlinear, or parallel, or anything but the original recipe. I don't need to stop and think about the meanings of the words, I just read and understand.
I’m not saying this to beat on my chest, but just so you can see where I’m coming from and how it shocks me to see these claims about this word.
I'm not sitting at a desk with a lamp on an some dictionary from the 1800's trying to find connections for names.

So allow me please to address each of the meanings you ascribed to the name יעקב Yaakov (Jacob).

You wrote:
“Just calling it like I read it. From the meaning of his name,(which means the supplanter, manipulator, deceiver, cheater) to the character of his life until he becomes Israel (one who has wrestled with God)”

I’ll now address each of these meanings you ascribed to this word Yaakov.
  1. Supplant-obsolete word in English so I’m forced to go to the dictionary where I like what I see ”to take the place of and serve as a substitute for especially by reason of superior excellence or power”
  2. Manipulator-wrong, no lexicon makes this claim. Maybe you are using strongs or some other errant, ancient pseudo-lexicon? Strongs is just absolutely horrid and it’s a crime it’s still sold at all. If it didn't have the name of G-d in it I'd recommend you burn it for firewood.
  3. Deceiver -where in the world are you seeing this as a definition for Jacob? There is another word עקב Akove which means a path in the ground with the idea that you can be tricked by a false path. Is that where you got this? I'll explain bellow the error of such methods.
  4. Cheater - I cracked open my 4-volume HALOT lexicon (and for sure cheater is nowhere in that bad boy, neither are the other definitions you listed). HALOT (Baumgarner) is a modern scholarly Hebrew dictionary that makes use of modern scholarship in the area of Ugaritic (a Canannite language similar to Hebrew).
Here are some meanings your strongs or outdated BDB probably didn’t tell you related to our father Jacob’s name:
Eykev - reward (as he was a reward to his father Yitschak for living a good life)
Akov - steep,hilly (not so useful here but just to be thorough) So maybe He was tall? lol
Akav - follow (maybe because he followed the first one)-this seems the most reasonable

The scholarship in Strongs concordance is just horrendous. I can’t speak to the Greek but I as a student of Greek I can say that no Greek student ever references STRONGS for that either, usually if they are using an antiquated resource it’s Thayer which has some credibility.

Look I’m not “over reaching” here when I tell you “deceiver”, "cheater", "Manipulator" are absolutely not part of that name, implied or otherwise.
It means heel, follow, trace steps or reach, because he quite literally was holding his brother’s ankle.

EVIL BABY! So his parents called it like they saw it. “Ankle grabber”. It’s like calling someone “Reddy” because he was born reddish. We don’t later say LOOK he is a murderer because of bloody color at birth.

About Hebrew Roots (linguistic not the movement):
You have to be very careful with your etymologies. Just because you find some negative word that derives from a root used in a name; you need to realize Hebrew is not English and there is a LOT of antisemitic baggage in church tradition.

Let me give you an example. We are told that Yeshua is the word correct?
At least by John that the LOGOS (word) came and pitched His tent among us, became flesh etc.

OK well word in hebrew is דבר DaVaR. But the exact same root also means pestilence דבר DeVeR.
So can we then say that Yeshua had some attribute of pestilence because the root word means that?
שלום Shalom means peace but the same root means avenge שלם (SHiLeM) in some contexts.
So true peace only comes by revenge? See how dangerous it is to apply English-style comparisons with Hebrew?
I've used these examples to show the absurdity of attributing to our father Yaakov the concepts of "deceiver" and such even if there were some other word with the same
root with that meaning.

My point is, you can’t just play fast and loose with word roots in this language, and you certainly can’t impugn someone’s character because another word that has the same root has some negative meaning. In all fairness, when we do that, we’re “over-reaching:p (couldn’t help myself)

So I implore you to look at the life of the man.
The only example anyone has been able to give me is a 1 time deal where mommy put the lad up to it. So you label him “deceiver” for that? Wow imagine in our own lives if this standard is applied. Joleneakamama and ZecAustin have already addressed this incident with mommy so I won't elaborate more.

I also find it appalling that the tone from someone earlier was to side with Laban over Jacob like Laban was the one ripped off. Now I say this next part in love guys. Is it possible, that you’ve inherited some antisemitic positions from the Gentile church?
This doesn’t impugn your character, just the sources of some of these traditional views. People liked to make Jacob out to be a “bad guy” because he’s the father of the Jews.

You wrote: “Jacob was a deceiver and manipulator extraordinaire…” wow.
Yet the only examples you guys listed were his 1 incident with his father where he was coerced by his mother (hardly an extraordinaire when he did zero of the planning in this 1 time event), and in his dealings with the pagan, idolater, liar, wife-swapping, evil Laban.

I say your sources’ traditions are the traditions of men; men who were Jew-haters because there is no way else someone could derive such a conclusion from a plain reading of the biblical text.
We don’t pray to our fathers so let’s stop with the undeserved hyperbole saying Jews are worshiping our ancestors. There is so much ignorance in Gentile Christianity when it comes to Judaism and when I hear this nonsense and pseudo-scholarship repeated it makes me sick.

My post is long enough so I don't think I'll tackle your Hosea reference which is about all of Israel anyway (Ephrayim descendant of Jacob etc).
After we close the lid on bad etymologies we can move on to deal with that if it's really important to you. For now I don't want to get distracted.

I really hope we can come to accord in this. I value your comments and I'm sure in many areas you have much more wisdom and knowledge than I do. I just think in this one small area there is something for you to learn here.
Peace and love to you all
 
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Missed this one.

עָקַב `aqab
Verb aw-kab'
a primitive root
a primitive root; properly, to swell out or up; used only as denominative from , to seize by the heel; figuratively, to circumvent (as if tripping up the heels); also to restrain (as if holding by the heel):--take by the heel, stay, supplant, utterly.
  1. to supplant, circumvent, take by the heel, follow at the heel, assail insidiously, overreach
    1. (Qal) to supplant, overreach, attack at the heel
    2. (Piel) to hold back
(To attack at the heel makes no sense unless you are using it in a racing analogy. Then it makes perfect sense as the one in second place trips up the one in the lead for the purpose of taking his place. Seems to fit Mr Jacob to a T.
Thus a cheater - one who seeks to win by devious means.
A manipulator - in this case both he and his mother had no faith in the God who said that he would be the blessed one so they must deviously manipulate the situation to try to resolve it to their satisfaction outside of God's timeline.
A supplanter - because that's what he did - not by superior intelligence but by bold faced lying repeatedly to his father.
A deceiver - because he repeatedly lied to his father to gain something that God would have given him anyway.

By the way, if you read the passage in Hosea, it is not just referencing the nation of Israel at that moment in History. The text directly references Jacob, his sins and his victories as well as his repayment or recompense and then compares and applies it to the present day Israel/Ephraim.

As far as being anti-Semitic, do me the favor of not projecting. I am only biased against stupidity and abominations.

Also, as far as Jacob being known as a righteous man, I couldn't find that anywhere except in a reference to his descendants by Baalam. If you have a biblical reference to state otherwise I'd be glad to look at it. However, the only righteousness I find associated with him was hereditary. God blessed and protected him in spite of his character because he was the grandson and son of Abraham and Isaac, who were in fact righteous men. In fact, when they are fleeing Shechem after Levi and Simeon sacked the city, God told Jacob to go sacrifice at Bethel. Gen 35:2 The first thing that Jacob does is to tell the members of his household to put away the strange gods that were among them, change their clothes and be clean, they are going to Beth-el (the house of God). Righteous? Really?
 
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