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Titus 1:15 and polygamy

B

Bartato

Seasoned Member
Male
I've been thinking about polygamy in light of the principle set forth in this verse.

"To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled." (Titus 1:15 NKJV)

The man (or woman) who has his heart and mind set on the Lord Jesus Christ, and our Father in Heaven is pure. This man seeks to serve and please his Master, not himself. He lives by faith. His heart is set on the love of God, and love of neighbor. Since the man is pure in heart, everything is pure for him.

There are also other men (and women), men who do not fear God, men who do not trust, hope in, and follow Jesus Christ. These men seek to gratify themselves. They seek their own benefit even when doing so harms others. This man acts as though he himself is the center of the universe. He walks in fear, pride, covetousness, and ultimately despair. He may claim to have faith, but it isn't genuine. Nothing is pure for this man.

I take the "everything" described in this passage to pertain to the "everything of normal life", and do not believe it to include specific things forbidden by God.

Homosexuality is fundamentally evil. It cannot be pure no matter what the state of one's heart. Likewise, adultery is always wrong, as are murder, the dishonoring of father and mother, and many other prohibited things.

Most things are lawful. These lawful things will be pure for the pure man, but still impure to the unclean man. In short, the impure man sins even when doing those things that are generally lawful.

The pure man may drink alcohol, while exercising moderation, self control, and praising God. The impure will misuse and abuse alcohol.

The pure man will eat his food with a thankful heart, praising God. The impure man sins in his eating, since his delight is solely in the food itself, and not the Giver of the food.

The pure man works hard, saves and invests money wisely, and shares generously, because he knows his Father in Heaven cares for him. The faithless man sets his hope on money. He trusts money to keep him safe, and give him the things his soul desires. This man does evil even in his working, saving, investing, and giving.

I think marriage and family also fit this category. The pure man fixes his eyes on the Lord Jesus Christ. He loves, provides for, protects, and leads his family.

If he has one wife, he will delight in her and love her as Christ loved the Church. If the Lord chooses to give him more than one wife, then he will thank God for each of them, and seek to reflect Christ in the way he leads each one individually, and the whole family corporately.

The pure man serves God when single, if he has one wife, if he has more than one, if his wife or wives leave him, or if she/or they die. Whatever his circumstances, the pure man will serve God.

The faithless man offends God when he is single. He offends God when he has one wife. He offends God if he has multiple wives. He offends God in divorce, and offends Gof in death. Whatever his circumstances, the impure man does evil. The impure man even transgresses when doing generally lawful things.

We should all examine our own hearts and lives to see whether we are walking by faith, as pure men.
 
Well said!
Bartato said:
He lives by faith.
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I think that is the heart of the matter. God said that, whether you turn to the right or the left, you will always hear His still, small voice telling you which is the right way. He also said that He will give faith to all who ask Him. I believe it is an impossibility for Him to give you faith to do something which would anger Him, though some deceive themselves and anger Him. To those who have not that faith that is given freely, who have either refused it or lack knowledge, it is sin to them because they would believe in their hearts that it is so. This is why so many sit in judgment over their brothers, but God said that to his own master each servant stands or falls.

Paul said in Romans 14:23 that whatever is not of faith is sin. He also says to bear with those whose faith is weak, to not let the exercise of our faith become a stumbling block for those who are weak, as well as to not let our faith be spoken of as evil. That is why I 1.) Do my best not to mock or be angry at someone who comes to me with good intentions to warn me that they think I am sinning in what I do. 2.) Don't purposely flaunt my faith (which, in the light of polygyny means that I mask the nature of my wives' relationship to me) when I know it would be confusing to them to see what I do, and them knowing I am a man of God may be tempted to copy me without seeking faith, and so stumble into sin. 3.) Don't remain silent when I see an opportunity to share the knowledge of the faith I possess. (Keeping in mind also the pigs vs pearls warning, and allowing the Holy Spirit to give me discernment. Not everyone is ready to hear the truth.) 4.) If I see my brother doing something I have no faith to do, I might ask him with an open mind to tell me how it is that he can do something that to me is sin. (And then test everything, including what he said and what was already in my heart.)
 
Bartato said:
The pure man works hard, saves and invests money wisely, and shares generously, because he knows his Father in Heaven cares for him. The faithless man sets his hope on money. He trusts money to keep him safe, and give him the things his soul desires. This man does evil even in his working, saving, investing, and giving.
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Ironically, the 'pure man' also must know that "federal reserve notes" are not 'money' - and there's no reality in "saving" in them. ;)

PS> Even "the world" is rapidly realizing that, too...
 
Money is anything used for buying, selling, and payment of goods and services. So yes, federal reserve notes are money. They may decrease in value, but they are money until they are worthless. Money can be anything that has value...grain, wheat, food, coins, precious metals, and paper notes, that can also be used and is recognized for trading and buying and selling goods and services. That is what money is. So US Dollars are "money", until a US dollar isn't worth anything. Until they stop being valuable, it is worthwhile to save them.
 
Mark C said:
Ironically, the 'pure man' also must know that "federal reserve notes" are not 'money' - and there's no reality in "saving" in them. ;)

PS> Even "the world" is rapidly realizing that, too...
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I don't think that is necessary in order to be pure. It is enough to serve God rather than mammon.

I do hate this scam of a privately controlled debt/usury based fiat money that we suffer under.
 
NBTX11 said:
Money is anything used for buying, selling, and payment of goods and services...
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Sorry, but wrong. By every lawful economic, and particularly Scriptural, definition.

Federal Reserve Notes aren't even a real NOTE, as defined by common law. (No 'payer,' 'payee,' or real value...) They are mere CURRENCY. And their value is no longer defined by law, nor regulated by Congress, as was the case when the Constitution was still pretended to matter.

Scripture is even more clear than Article I, Section 8, Paragraph 5, or Section 10, Paragraph 1:
the word "qesef" literally means 'silver'...and it is the very same word often rendered AS 'money' in English, The dishonest weight literally incurs a curse (Deuteronomy 25:13-19; and see at least half a dozen references in Proverbs alone on that score, too.)

Putting water in a leaky bucket isn't 'saving' anything. And those Solomon calls"wise" know that.
Bartato said:
I do hate this scam of a privately controlled debt/usury based fiat money that we suffer under.
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So "come out of her." No fiat, fake 'money' in all of history has ever survived for very long.
 
NBTX11 said:
Money is anything used for buying, selling, and payment of goods and services. So yes, federal reserve notes are money. They may decrease in value, but they are money until they are worthless. Money can be anything that has value...grain, wheat, food, coins, precious metals, and paper notes, that can also be used and is recognized for trading and buying and selling goods and services. That is what money is. So US Dollars are "money", until a US dollar isn't worth anything. Until they stop being valuable, it is worthwhile to save them.
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I can see this, sort of. Dollars are a medium of exchange even if they’re not a store of value. I think true money would be both though.
 
Mark C said:
Sorry, but wrong. By every lawful economic, and particularly Scriptural, definition.

Federal Reserve Notes aren't even a real NOTE, as defined by common law. (No 'payer,' 'payee,' or real value...) They are mere CURRENCY. And their value is no longer defined by law, nor regulated by Congress, as was the case when the Constitution was still pretended to matter.

Scripture is even more clear than Article I, Section 8, Paragraph 5, or Section 10, Paragraph 1:
the word "qesef" literally means 'silver'...and it is the very same word often rendered AS 'money' in English, The dishonest weight literally incurs a curse (Deuteronomy 25:13-19; and see at least half a dozen references in Proverbs alone on that score, too.)

Putting water in a leaky bucket isn't 'saving' anything. And those Solomon calls"wise" know that.

So "come out of her." No fiat, fake 'money' in all of history has ever survived for very long.
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Do you transact only in silver?
 
But the time is coming where "no one will buy or sell" - check the word "commerce" - except via His "honest weights".

But as far as fiat is concerned - actually nothing hyperbolic there except what has ALWAYS happened to them.
 
Silver is not in sufficient supply to be used for general populace today. But for those of the persuation to use it as such, it actually creates a very useful closed economy. A silver coin will circulate 10-20-100 times in a local economy before going outside, compared to a dollar which vanishes into the ether after two. Reciept and spent. The real economic growth involved in a closed economy like that can be exponential. But it requires close and intentional mutually supportive communities. Hard to achieve without a shared identity, legal structure, language, religion... Oh look, Israel!
 
DawoodSaar said:
Silver is not in sufficient supply to be used for general populace today. But for those of the persuation to use it as such, it actually creates a very useful closed economy. A silver coin will circulate 10-20-100 times in a local economy before going outside, compared to a dollar which vanishes into the ether after two. Reciept and spent. The real economic growth involved in a closed economy like that can be exponential. But it requires close and intentional mutually supportive communities. Hard to achieve without a shared identity, legal structure, language, religion... Oh look, Israel!
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Getting strong John Wick vibes here
 
Re: Saving in silver - EVENTUALLY 'transacting' (better: 'trading') in silver

Asforme&myhouse said:
It wasn’t a trick question, I was just curious how it could be done. I’d love to use silver, but it’s hard to imagine how it could truly be done for all transactions, commerce, saving etc.
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At some point, after "TSHTF," those who survive always seem to begin to realize what is Real, and what is Not. Silver will circulate, and be valued appropriately. (Look at the average wages of a worker throughout most of history: a bag of junk quarters represents well over 10 YEARS of 'stored labor'.)

So, in the meantime, the emphasis is on savings. Not in 'fiat $$$' - but OUNCES (or kg, if you prefer...)

Still, I have for many years used silver not just for 'trade' - but education. Real property is almost always traded for some verbiage like "... $100 plus OVC" (Long story, ask an old realtor. But it has to do with the 7th Amendment, choice of law, and what "twenty dollars" meant when it was Real Money.)

Years ago, in an interview I did with Ron Paul, the subject came up. It was HIS law (one of the few he sponsored which passed, and he was proud of it!) that beat the IRS, in a case where a man paid his employees in real US silver coin, and all declared the face value. The idea is that if the US Congress declared a 1964 silver quarter to be worth "one quarter dollar" - then just who was the IRS to dispute them? (Likewise, face value of eagles, etc - any official coin actually COINED by the united States.)

Suppose one was to be a used car for, say, $4000 fiat dollars. But if the buyer had real silver US coin, they might agree on a price of $125 in Lawful US coin, and that is what the Bill of Sale rightfully says. All benefit.

(I tell this story often: Years ago, I did exactly that. I told the seller after we consummated the deal, that if he didn't want to keep the silver, I'd even "buy it back." He did, saying, "I guess I'd rather have the paper." "OK," I replied, "but you may wish you hadn't." A month later I ran into him in a parking lot, and he saw me and came up to talk. Like recently, silver had just moved up by almost 20%. "I did a stupid thing," he told me. BUT AT LEAST HE LEARNED SOMETHING, and I suspect has benefited since.)

Over the last couple decades, I have talked to hundreds of listeners, and dozens of independent business owners and professionals -- from plumbers and carpenters to chiropractors, lawyers, and dentists.

Many have been willing to accept silver in trade for services. Again, they benefit, and learn, too.

Finally - long ago, when I still used to on occasion go out with my wives for an Expensive Dinner, I sometimes took a silver Eagle to leave as a tip. All were curious, every one asked me about it. After an explanation, and an offer of a mere 15% in paper instead, most happily kept the beautiful silver coin - and said something like, "I'll KEEP it, too."
 
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PS>
DawoodSaar said:
Silver is not in sufficient supply to be used for general populace today.
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Not at all true. But not at a rigged, suppressed price. And not in a climate of general ignorance of what is Real, and what is not.

The problem is what is called "Gresham's Law" ('Bad money drives out good.')

Anyone who knows will ALWAYS prefer to trade paper as long as some Greater Fool is willing to take it, and keep the silver for savings. (Think the card game of Old Maid.)

I have wrestled for a long time with how to keep silver circulating in a small, Torah-obedient community. The problem is, people who know, will hang onto it.


For now.
 
Mark C said:
PS>

Not at all true. But not at a rigged, suppressed price. And not in a climate of general ignorance of what is Real, and what is not.

The problem is what is called "Gresham's Law" ('Bad money drives out good.')

Anyone who knows will ALWAYS prefer to trade paper as long as some Greater Fool is willing to take it, and keep the silver for savings. (Think the card game of Old Maid.)

I have wrestled for a long time with how to keep silver circulating in a small, Torah-obedient community. The problem is, people who know, will hang onto it.


For now.
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This has nothing with greater fool prefering paper.

It is just all people at same time prefering getting rid of paper and keeping metal. So paper gets circulated and metal is used as form of saving. Why? Because metal is better as form of saving. Lasts longer, supply is harder to increase etc...

This is no law of nature which requires same thing to be used for saving and trade (in sense of everyday use). Although it is often convenient to do so. Yes, in future we could finish with multiple curriencies, each for different use case. Bitcoin for saving, CDBCs for official shopping and Monero/PirateCash for black market.

DawoodSaar said:
Silver is not in sufficient supply to be used for general populace today. But for those of the persuation to use it as such, it actually creates a very useful closed economy. A silver coin will circulate 10-20-100 times in a local economy before going outside, compared to a dollar which vanishes into the ether after two. Reciept and spent. The real economic growth involved in a closed economy like that can be exponential. But it requires close and intentional mutually supportive communities. Hard to achieve without a shared identity, legal structure, language, religion... Oh look, Israel!
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There is always enough silver or gold or bitcoin or any paper money for economy at any time. Amount of amount in circulation never matters. It is change in amount of money in circulation which can be damaging.

Why amount of money never matters? Because all economy is nothing more than exchange of goods. I give you good A and you give good B. Money is nothing but intermediary. If you want more goods, you need to create more goods, otherwise you won't be able to do more exchanges.

For example, farmer can exchange 10 tons of grain for house. If he also wants a car also he may need, for example, produce 2 tons of grain more. So prices here are 10:1:5, in order amount of grain:house:cars.

We use money to avoid barter system and to be able to produce now/later in order to exchange now/later. Hint: Think about this sentence and you will figure why debt/credit exists.

What can influence exchange ratios of goods? Only amount of goods, never amount of money.
For example, if amount of grain goes up, farmer will have to produce more to buy same amount of housing because price of grain has fallen. This is standard supply/demand, just expressed in exchange ratios, instead of usually money.

In practice going to silver/gold/bitcoin will cause wideapread fall of prices. Since debt will remain in old nominal amount and with money itself harder to get many/all debt won't be able to be serviced. So widespread default and moving assets from debtors toward savers.

Amount of money matters for economy because it will influence debt payment. In all cases nominal amount of debt stays same. When supply of money is increased it is easier to pay existing debt. Opposite happens when amount of money is reduced. And this is reason why governments prefer increasing sypply of money because they are overindebted.
 
Mostly correct, but with a problem, not taught in 'economics' classrooms.

MemeFan said:
This has nothing with greater fool prefering paper.

It is just all people at same time prefering getting rid of paper and keeping metal. So paper gets circulated and metal is used as form of saving. Why? Because metal is better as form of saving. Lasts longer, supply is harder to increase etc...

This is no law of nature which requires same thing to be used for saving and trade (in sense of everyday use). Although it is often convenient to do so. Yes, in future we could finish with multiple curriencies...
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There IS however a clear "law" in Scripture.

Dishonest weights are an "abomination", and carry a literal curse. We're seeing that. (AGAIN!)

The original concept was 'wisdom' and what those who know (yada) YHVH will seek to do.

As to "in the future" - we'll finish, or so He says, with a "Mark". Don't take it. So how do you intend to eat?
 
Mark C said:
Mostly correct, but with a problem, not taught in 'economics' classrooms.


There IS however a clear "law" in Scripture.

Dishonest weights are an "abomination", and carry a literal curse. We're seeing that. (AGAIN!)

The original concept was 'wisdom' and what those who know (yada) YHVH will seek to do.

As to "in the future" - we'll finish, or so He says, with a "Mark". Don't take it. So how do you intend to eat?
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What is exactly dishonest weight?

I consider this to be more like merchant setting his scale to 10 kg when correct value is 9 kg.
 
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