Under a father's covering until marriage?

[theleastofthese]

I recently had a little disagreement with someone on social media (imagine that). He proceeded to tell me that, as a woman, I couldn't "question" him. He stated that if I'm married, my husband must do so, and if I'm not, then my father should be the one speaking to him, not me.

I didn't realize that a man and woman couldn't have a simple conversation or disagreement on a public platform without a father or husband's headship. I was under the impression that a father's covering applied to women in their youth and women living in their father's household. I'm far removed from both.

Can anyone offer some insight into what a covering for unmarried women would consist of? Now I'm curious if I've been misunderstanding all along.

 

[Mark C]

I didn't realize that a man and woman couldn't have a simple conversation or disagreement on a public platform without a father or husband's headship.

Well, this one's interesting. (And there's no shortage of "law of mere men" on the issue, Scriptural basis or not.)

But, briefly - I do have to start here:

Social[ist] media? (that 'public platform' thing.)

How do you know the 'participants' are even HUMAN? Much less male or female, or some twisted combination?

 

[paterfamilias]

I recently had a little disagreement with someone on social media (imagine that). He proceeded to tell me that, as a woman, I couldn't "question" him. He stated that if I'm married, my husband must do so, and if I'm not, then my father should be the one speaking to him, not me.

I didn't realize that a man and woman couldn't have a simple conversation or disagreement on a public platform without a father or husband's headship. I was under the impression that a father's covering applied to women in their youth and women living in their father's household. I'm far removed from both.

Can anyone offer some insight into what a covering for unmarried women would consist of? Now I'm curious if I've been misunderstanding all along.

I am not a great one for a biblical question but then when has that stopped me.

Not knowing the circumstances perfectly I may be off base but it sounds as in the guy got his feelings hurt somehow and his wee delicate feels bruised by something you had to say and went to kind of a hybrid of appeal to authority and false delema fallacies.
Don't know if the topic was about plyg-life or just marriage but I am just going to pretend that it was about plural marriage and take the most extreme position and steelman his potential argument back.

So, presumably in this time where plural marriage where polygamy is the last remaining taboo when it comes to relationships, he is proposing that your father should be out on social media looking for a husband and established family for you as well as engaging in arguments of faith with lumpheaded headed randos from the internet and that perhaps you should be allowed to read over his shoulder in anticipation of what man he will choose for you.

Presumably as part of this process you dad eill be engaging in negotiations with Lumpy for the amount of livestock that he will trade for his daughter.


To my mind a cover is a shield to protect, a blanket to warm and a roof to create a home.

 

[paterfamilias]

How do you know the 'participants' are even HUMAN? Much less male or female, or some twisted combination?

Sounds silly enough to be human but you do have to admit that the guy has a legitimate point.

Perhaps some sort of hat will help to distract from it.

 

[theleastofthese]

Presumably as part of this process you dad eill be engaging in negotiations with Lumpy for the amount of livestock that he will trade for his daughter

Shoot, I'd be flattered to be traded for livestock!

You are right though, we were arguing about polygyny. He insisted it's a sin and I insisted he show me where in any passage it's condemned and what punishment it holds. He then says he's "shocked that a woman is questioning to him in such a manner" and that if I'm married, my husband should be speaking to him, if not, my father.

I guess if my father asked him the same question he'd have a better answer?

 

[steve]

If he doesn’t believe in polygyny, how does he propose that every woman have a husband?

 

[theleastofthese]

Well, this one's interesting. (And there's no shortage of "law of mere men" on the issue, Scriptural basis or not.)

But, briefly - I do have to start here:

Social[ist] media? (that 'public platform' thing.)

How do you know the 'participants' are even HUMAN? Much less male or female, or some twisted combination?

Good point. Though I do think it was human because we as humans possess a level of ignorance that is unmatched still.

The only passages I recall are when Moses spoke of women in their youth and still in their father's household.

What's your opinion on the topic? And, can you dumb it down to child-level so I can understand?

Are unmarried women, not living in their father's household still under a headship?

I searched the forums before I started the thread; I'm sure it's been discussed, but I didn't see anything (it could be my phone acting up).

 

[steve]

I find it interesting (Exodus 21) that a son can be sold as a servant, but a daughter cannot.
If she is purchased as a handmaid, it’s for keeps. Meanwhile the male servant is released after seven years.
The buyer is to keep her as, eventually, his wife or his son’s. Or let her be ransomed back to her father.

The only releasing of a woman to freedom was in the case of a woman captured in war but elevated to wife. If she became too displeasing, she was released, not sold.
Whereas a woman just kept as a slave could be sold.

 

[paterfamilias]

Shoot, I'd be flattered to be traded for livestock!

Hmmm...we talking goats, sheep, pigs or cattle?
And does you dad have the infrastructure in place to accept delivery?

You are right though, we were arguing about polygyny. He insisted it's a sin and I insisted he show me where in any passage it's condemned and what punishment it holds. He then says he's "shocked that a woman is questioning to him in such a manner" and that if I'm married, my husband should be speaking to him, if not, my father.

I guess if my father asked him the same question he'd have a better answer?

Yep...he was butthurt. Will wager he tried to find a real refutation and failed. So he has to try to deflect to protect his ego.

Most people have a hard time admitting that they have been fooled and that they are wrong

 

[Mark C]

What's your opinion on the topic? And, can you dumb it down to child-level so I can understand?

I understand the issue, and the concern, and don't necessarily see a Scriptural PROHIBITION, although certainly the precedents suggest women who would seek their father (certainly husband's) counsel. But not for a woman who no longer has such, IMHO.

And you don't seem to be teaching in a cahal. You are, in fact, asking a question, here.

As you may know, I am not a fan of "arguments from silence," much less men making up what they think He SHOULD have said if He was only as smart as they believe themselves to be...

My own wives would simply ask me.

PS> I've addressed this elsewhere, so didn't repeat it here, but just in case: Yes, a daughter is under her father's 'covering' until that authority is transferred to the chosen husband at marriage. (Numbers 30. BTW, "who gives this woman," was once a correct question, before it got PC'd.)

 

[Mark C]

...we were arguing about polygyny. He insisted it's a sin and I insisted he show me where in any passage it's condemned and what punishment it holds. He then says he's "shocked that a woman is questioning to him in such a manner" and that if I'm married, my husband should be speaking to him, if not, my father.

If I were your husband, I'd start by telling him that if he is so ignorant of Scripture as to not understand simple basics like marriage, where did he get the hubris to lecture my wife about something he is clueless about?

 

[NBTX11]

Ruth presented herself to Boaz, so my takeaway is that a single widowed or possibly divorced woman is her own authority for a period of time until she comes under a man again.

As far as a never married single woman I don’t think there is scripture that says she stops being under father’s covering at a certain age. Obviously, you have situations where the father dies before she marries. Some things are not clear cut and you have to piece them together as best as you can based upon understanding of scripture.

 

[Joshua]

Ruth presented herself to Boaz, so my takeaway is that a single widowed or possibly divorced woman is her own authority for a period of time until she comes under a man again.

As far as a never married single woman I don’t think there is scripture that says she stops being under father’s covering at a certain age. Obviously, you have situations where the father dies before she marries. Some things are not clear cut and you have to piece them together as best as you can based upon understanding of scripture.

Scripturally, I agree. What do you think about daughters of unsaved men? Or generally evil acting men (even if saved)? I would assume it’s just something we have to live with. (Funny thing is most secular fathers nowadays would say sure marry whoever if the girl is 18+)

 

[theleastofthese]

Can anyone point me to passages stating that a woman is under her father's covering if she is no longer in his household or in her youth? I'm not arguing the case, I'd like to study it.

 

[MemeFan]

Shoot, I'd be flattered to be traded for livestock!

You are right though, we were arguing about polygyny. He insisted it's a sin and I insisted he show me where in any passage it's condemned and what punishment it holds. He then says he's "shocked that a woman is questioning to him in such a manner" and that if I'm married, my husband should be speaking to him, if not, my father.

I guess if my father asked him the same question he'd have a better answer?

He wouldn't have better answer, just better excuse.

 

[Joshua]

Can anyone point me to passages stating that a woman is under her father's covering if she is no longer in his household or in her youth? I'm not arguing the case, I'd like to study it.

I find this passage interesting

1 Corinthians 7:36-38 (KJV) 36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of [her] age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. 37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. 38 So then he that giveth [her] in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth [her] not in marriage doeth better.

From my study, I think the age of adulthood was 12 back then, and this suggests that even after this girl was of marriageable age, the father could decide to not give her away. I’m more than willing to hear refutation or support for women marrying in legal adulthood despite fatherly objection.

 

[Joshua]

I find this passage interesting

1 Corinthians 7:36-38 (KJV) 36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of [her] age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. 37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. 38 So then he that giveth [her] in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth [her] not in marriage doeth better.

From my study, I think the age of adulthood was 12 back then, and this suggests that even after this girl was of marriageable age, the father could decide to not give her away. I’m more than willing to hear refutation or support for women marrying in legal adulthood despite fatherly objection.

Not sure how much of the ancient ruling on this matter had to do with culture alone, or if God purposefully bestowed the Hebrew culture with fatherly rights over daughter til any marriage. But til given other information that’s where I am.

 

[theleastofthese]

Scripturally, I agree. What do you think about daughters of unsaved men? Or generally evil acting men (even if saved)? I would assume it’s just something we have to live with. (Funny thing is most secular fathers nowadays would say sure marry whoever if the girl is 18+)

Personally, my father would think it's ridiculous if I brought up anything about a covering at my age. My father was "abusive" growing up and even now (and that's not a term I use lightly). I've had to distance myself. Though, I forgive, respect, and honor him as my father because none of us are perfect. Still, I can see why many women chose to remove themselves entirely from the situation. Sometimes it's absolutely necessary.

 

[Bartato]

Shoot, I'd be flattered to be traded for livestock!

You are right though, we were arguing about polygyny. He insisted it's a sin and I insisted he show me where in any passage it's condemned and what punishment it holds. He then says he's "shocked that a woman is questioning to him in such a manner" and that if I'm married, my husband should be speaking to him, if not, my father.

I guess if my father asked him the same question he'd have a better answer?

This guy is completely unable to answer the questions you raised. His comment is just an attempt at escaping your argument.

Ideally the unmarried daughter should stay under her father's protection (and in his household), but that generally doesn't happen. Thus, there are many women who lack a covering.

 

[NBTX11]

Culturally either the woman or the father remove her from his covering around ages 18-25. Nothing scripturally says that either should do that, however that’s just the way it’s done now. I can’t point to an exact scripture that says she’s to remain under him. It’s more of an argument from silence. But, I would need to do more study to give a more definitive answer.

As far as the unsaved or evil man, they would likely have zero knowledge of biblical truths so it would be difficult to make them assume this authority after the woman reaches what culture says is an adult, typically around age 18, possibly 21.