Vows and the Pledge of Allegiance

[Shibboleth]

I keep getting sidetracked... I mentioned in another thread that, while looking into Biblical Marriage, I was studying "vows" in general. But in the process, I was convicted to investigate the issue of saying the (U.S.) pledge of allegiance. It's something that's always made me a bit uncomfortable, but I had never directly confronted it, and I mostly avoided thinking about it too hard.

Now that I've had to confront it directly, I've tried to wrestle through various arguments for and against, from a Scriptural perspective, and I ended up writing an essay on the topic, which I've attached. I'd be appreciative if people would review it, and provide feedback. I'm especially interested if there are any weaknesses in my application of Scriptures, my arguments, or my wording or structure. I'm also curious if there's anything I've missed (on either side). I have a few ideas of what I think might be weak points, but I want to see what others suggest first. I understand political issues can sometimes be touchy, but if you have an opposing view based on Scripture, I'd definitely like to hear it: iron sharpens iron.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I found it an interesting perspective. Well written and thought provoking.

I have recently (in the last year) come to the same position though for different reasons. I found out what I was pledging allegiance to. Like you, though the jargon used purports to be under the legal jurisprudence of the Almighty, the jurisprudence the flag represents is in direct enmity with God's law and jurisprudence.

So, though I love my nation and the ideals and principles upon which it was founded, I have truly understood that our status is to be a resident alien, still looking for a city whose builder and maker (and coming King and Ruler) is God

 

[FollowingHim]

It looks sound to me. Well done, this took a lot of careful study.
Because the USA appeared to be founded upon Christian principles, or at least Deism with Christian elements, American Christianity has become entwined with American identity to the point where key US political documents (most commonly the declaration of independence) are frequently cited by Christians as theological statements. And practices that are theologically questionable, such as the pledge, are rationalised as being ok because of the presumed Christian nature of the country. This is very strange behaviour, looking from the outside. I know of no other country where Christianity and politics are intertwined to such a degree.
It is absolutely vital to separate Christianity and patriotism. They are not opposed to each other - being patriotic towards a country that espouses Christian values is entirely consistent with Christianity, while that country continues to espouse those values. But we must keep them separate so that we can immediately recognise when the two begin to diverge.

 

[Shibboleth]

Thanks for looking at this. Normally, I would just quietly refrain from saying it, but the issue is that I work in a (multi-church) children's ministry at my church, where I've been leading several children in saying it each week. This makes it worse, because teachers will be judged more strictly. I don't even think there's any strong sense of patriotism behind it; it's the kinda thing where "we've always done it that way, so we continue doing it." I'd like to get away from doing that.

I gave a copy of this to my pastor tonight and asked him to read it; I'm curious to see how he reacts. If it goes well, I may also push it up to the local director of the children's ministry.

 

[NetWatchR]

Thank you for putting this together and subjecting it to peer review. I find your arguments sound with no disagreement.

I'm especially interested if there are any weaknesses in my application of Scriptures, my arguments, or my wording or structure.

Well, since you asked...

I am cautioned by excessive in-line verses. It looks as if the author is trying to pass the words of the Bible as their own or intentionally using partial verses to exclude context. Where a much larger section of Scripture is necessary to get the whole point across, you correctly make your statement then copy the scripture. But I would caution against doing that excessively, as well. Too much and the reader might think that you're just padding your essay for size. I think it would read more clearly and appear more genuine to make your statement and then reference the scripture so that the reader can still verify your source and validate your interpretations. You could also use footnotes for the really small snippets that most Christians have very likely already heard a hundred times before.

Example: Page 1, Par 1, Sentence 2

Often, it is scarcely any burden to obey your leaders and submit to their authority, pay taxes, follow customs, and show honor and respect (Heb. 13:17 & Rom. 13:7).

Or

Often, it is scarcely any burden to obey your leaders and submit to their authority(1), pay taxes, follow customs, and show honor and respect(2).

(1) Hebrews 13:17
(2) Romans 13:7

The only other thing I can think of is rewording your Counter questions slightly. Keeping in mind that it is intended to oppose your original argument, it should be reflected in the kind of question.
For example:

Argument 1: The pledge is a false vow.
Counter: Aren't we unbound if we are asked to disobey?

It's subtle, but changes the flavor of what follows.

 

[cubanito]

Could covenant be a better term than vows? Vowing to something other than God border on idolatry? What are we programmed to think?

 

[cubanito]

Why do people sacrifice their lives for a corporate man made idol? How logical is that, why? Not even the 69 or 70 virgin scam. Now if I was a kitty, tuna might make me think twice? Lol

 

[cubanito]

Thank you for putting this together and subjecting it to peer review. I find your arguments sound with no disagreement.
Well, since you asked...

I am cautioned by excessive in-line verses. It looks as if the author is trying to pass the words of the Bible as their own or intentionally using partial verses to exclude context. Where a much larger section of Scripture is necessary to get the whole point across, you correctly make your statement then copy the scripture. But I would caution against doing that excessively, as well. Too much and the reader might think that you're just padding your essay for size. I think it would read more clearly and appear more genuine to make your statement and then reference the scripture so that the reader can still verify your source and validate your interpretations. You could also use footnotes for the really small snippets that most Christians have very likely already heard a hundred times before.

Example: Page 1, Par 1, Sentence 2

Or


The only other thing I can think of is rewording your Counter questions slightly. Keeping in mind that it is intended to oppose your original argument, it should be reflected in the kind of question.
For example:
It's subtle, but changes the flavor of what follows.

We should obey God rather than man right? If man made authority is not godly, then we are not obeying God and in many instances are against His will.
Daniel for example helped Nebuchadnezzar because he saw God's good will in him, at that time, not so much with Balthazar. So, we must carefully discern who or what we obey and serve.
Our society is far from godly now and our new "king" acts like an old testament character, quite interesting. Feels like sometimes, we are debating details in a burning building.
Sometimes the better choice is to abstain from the "lesser" evil. Does that make sense?

 

[NetWatchR]

Does that make sense?

Of course it does, but what does have to do with anything? I was making comment on readability, as requested; not content, though that was requested as well, just didn't have anything to add about it. When writing a paper for the encouragement or education of others, who the intended target audience is extremely important. It determines tone, verbiage, vocabulary and format all attribute to the overall readability of the document.

Peace, brother. Slow your roll a bit.

 

[cubanito]

Of course it does, but what does have to do with anything? I was making comment on readability, as requested; not content, though that was requested as well, just didn't have anything to add about it. When writing a paper for the encouragement or education of others, who the intended target audience is extremely important. It determines tone, verbiage, vocabulary and format all attribute to the overall readability of the document.

Peace, brother. Slow your roll a bit.

I was just reading and added a silly rant.

 

[NetWatchR]

...and added a silly rant.

Understandable, but you've been doing that a lot lately. I think your last 30 posts (slight exaggeration) have had something to do with Lucy and the Beastie. You've had some great additions to many threads in the beginning but the last few days have all started to sound the same and not really targeted to the specific topics at hand.

 

[cubanito]

Don't mean to irritate. I post for a while and then go back to everyday routines and obligations.
Just hope people are aware of such surroundings. These are big hard realities we can get hurt with.
I see many are not aware of those things so, is good to warn others of certain dangers we face. We all should do our part to inform of useful things.
Ask yourself what positive impact can we as individuals do for others. This is something I have seen and lived that I am talking about. What useful or practical advice can we share with others considering this living?

What wisdom bits can you bring?

I don't do it to irritate anyone, never meant it as such.. If I did, do apoligize.

We all can do our part to help others, at least warning of any dangers we see.

Is sad to see friends get hurt for preventable things. Hope you too can contribute some experience and wisdom to our friends when you can. We all should.
Some are in positions to do more, share more or different things.
Again, I don't mean to irritate others.

 

[cubanito]

Of course it does, but what does have to do with anything? I was making comment on readability, as requested; not content, though that was requested as well, just didn't have anything to add about it. When writing a paper for the encouragement or education of others, who the intended target audience is extremely important. It determines tone, verbiage, vocabulary and format all attribute to the overall readability of the document.

Peace, brother. Slow your roll a bit.

This kitty needs a nap..