What do you consider modesty on a woman? What makes a woman appear NOT modest?

[Mrs.HisPossession]

I'm curious to see different view point on what people perceive as a modest and shamefaced woman vs not. There are so many interpretations of modesty. Some think modest clothes, but makeup is ok. Others think no makeup but wear pants.... some dresses and no makeup, no heals... I could go on and on.

What do YOU think??! Also, when looking at a woman, what makes you discern that she is not modest? Meaning, what physical signs about her clothing or personality make you come to that conclusion?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Robeld]

I know we've talked about this before on the forum, but this is where I'm at right now. I find that my perception/ideas change as I grow and learn however. I do wear pants on a day to day basis, but I always choose a tunic type sweater or other top if I'm going out in public. My husband likes to see me in a dress or skirt in Shabbat so I do that. I prefer mid calf length or longer, and most of the mature women in our Messianic assembly do so as well. NO CLEAVAGE! I know this should be a no brainier but...lol. And I lean towards a more Orthodox Jewish perspective on sleeve length, ie cover the elbows. I wear light make-up myself, and I think that's ok as long as you don't go heavy or extreme. Anything more screams LOOK AT ME!! Oh I'm looking at you all right...

 

[frederick]

I have to begin by saying, different cultures dress in a wide variety of ways, both male and female, so we have to be careful not to try to impose our cultural standards on others. There's enough problems where western Christian values and standards have been imposed on others and forced them into the erroneous monogamy-only family structure, so let's not try to do the same with clothes; men's or women's. For example, I know of an American missions pastor who wouldn't stay and teach in Fiji because he couldn't handle the fact that Fijian men wear skirts and wouldn't wear suits 'to church'. Heck, even the police uniform for Fijian men includes skirts. Where I'm living, a cold day is 75F and people start complaining about the heat when it's around 100F, so clothing that is light and cool is the order of the day. Honestly, if I was a legs guy, I'd think I was in heaven coz the girl's shorts here get quite short.

For me, much of the clothing issue can be resolved simply by asking the question, who are you wanting to attract/impress? Do you, whether a man of woman, want to attract others to Jesus Christ or attract others to yourself? Are you trying to impress others by your clothing or impress Jesus Christ? All the commandments are summed up in two; love God wholeheartedly and your neighbour as yourself - and that will include your manner of dress. Clothing specifics will vary from place to place, culture to culture, but the commandments apply cross-culturally. However, when a woman appears, by her clothing, to be doing her best to attract the attention of others, it's probably not a love for God and her neighbour that's motivating her so I'd be of the opinion she's immodest. Just my 2 pesos here. Cheers

 

[Mrs.HisPossession]

I agree culture changes things. I'm curious if anyone knows to the heart of the matter if scripture makes it clear? With no other cultures involved, just based on scriptures pertaining to the culture of Israel if there is a clear definition of what modesty and shame faced should be?

( This is our sabbath topic)

 

[cnystrom]

1 Timothy and 1 Peter talk about immodesty in terms of not braiding your hair and wearing not gold jewelry. In our culture we seem to equate modesty with not being sexy, while the Bible verses seem to be more about the rich people making the poor people feel bad or inadequate.

Basically the idea was that you were not supposed to "show off" or draw attention to your external appearance bur rather let your inner light shine and speak for you.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

IMO, I fall in the category of “what does your husband define as immodest?”

Typically, most husbands and fathers are a pretty good judge of their families motives and attitudes of dress.

Those who care about modesty will assert their influence/standards on the family. For those that don’t care, it’s a non issue and is overstepping boundaries to try to force their compliance with our values.

Either way, the Father has to give account.

 

[The Revolting Man]

A married woman should dress in a way that would not signal to men that she is interested in their attention. Remember that we’re told not to let jewelry and hair be a woman’s glory, what we admire about her or all she’s required to do to be admired. We’re not actually forbidden from wearing such things. That being said I am always suspicious of a woman with noticeably manicured nails and always predisposed to admire a woman with her head covered.

 

[Mrs.HisPossession]

All of the responses are helpful and insightful.

Sometimes it seems that asking what is modesty is a lot like asking what is sin amongst those who are not Torah observant. Meaning that without the Torah, sin is just what each individual feels in their own heart. Like how at the very end of the book of Judges, it says "every man did what was right in his own eyes." (sorry if not exact- going from memory) It seems like this is what we also do with modesty in everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. Without the law, sin can be drinking, dancing, smoking, polygamy, eating meat, and many other things different denominations try to impose on people that can't be backed up by scripture. But- when you turn to the Torah, you find exactly what sin is. Because sin is the transgression of the law. So, to modesty, I guess I'm wondering for women's sake, how do we find the concrete agreeable answer to what is modesty? On judgment day, what one woman is condemned for will another receive a pass on because it was her cultural norm? If nudity is a cultural norm does that make it right? ( As in tribal customs, those who hear the Gospel and convert)- should they stick to their nudity as a cultural norm in their modesty commanded by scripture? For women who really want to be modest, it seems very difficult because there is no line drawn in the sand.

In one church setting you are modest, in the next they are condemning you for your makeup, or choice of hairstyle, or pants, or dress length. and heal size... it goes on and on. If you say my husband approves of this they may snear and still mark you as one dressed as a harlot. It's very hard to concretely find the 'IMAGE' of a "Christian" woman because it changes across the board. Take Muslims for example, you can spot them by dress. Yes, they have different levels of coverage within their faith but overall, those who wear hijab states to all what they are. Sometimes in public, when I vail, people think I am Muslim. Anyways, this is getting long, but any answers to this is helpful. I'm been studying modesty for a while and seem to go in circles as there is no concrete answers and I feel like I'm on the spinning wheel like how I felt before I became Torah observant and used to ask, "What is sin?" Now, because of the law I know what sin is. But, in modesty, I do not....

 

[rockfox]

1 Timothy and 1 Peter talk about immodesty in terms of not braiding your hair and wearing not gold jewelry. In our culture we seem to equate modesty with not being sexy, while the Bible verses seem to be more about the rich people making the poor people feel bad or inadequate.

Basically the idea was that you were not supposed to "show off" or draw attention to your external appearance bur rather let your inner light shine and speak for you.

It also talks about it in terms of shamefaced and discrete. In other words, not broadcasting their sexuality. WIll her dress and way of doing her hair attract peoples eyes?

 

[Pacman]

So, to modesty, I guess I'm wondering for women's sake, how do we find the concrete agreeable answer to what is modesty? On judgment day, what one woman is condemned for will another receive a pass on because it was her cultural norm? If nudity is a cultural norm does that make it right?

Women will be judged based on what they did with Messiah and what they did with the instructions given to them by their covering (husband / father etc...) there are very few if any general Torah instructions delivered directly to women. They are all delivered through the God given "chain of authority" which is clearly defined in 1 Cor. 11 as God> Messiah> Man> Woman.

https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/womens-clothing.14797/

This is discussed with some detail in this thread. Modesty means appropriate to the occasion. As far as the question of what clothing, makeup, head covering etc... a woman should be wearing and what is appropriate for a given occasion it really is at the discretion of her covering (husband / father etc...) The scriptures are virtually silent on this issue and the doctrines of man have been forced upon believers for centuries through cherry picked passages and strong personal opinions.

 

[Robeld]

All of the responses are helpful and insightful.

Sometimes it seems that asking what is modesty is a lot like asking what is sin amongst those who are not Torah observant. Meaning that without the Torah, sin is just what each individual feels in their own heart. Like how at the very end of the book of Judges, it says "every man did what was right in his own eyes." (sorry if not exact- going from memory) It seems like this is what we also do with modesty in everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. Without the law, sin can be drinking, dancing, smoking, polygamy, eating meat, and many other things different denominations try to impose on people that can't be backed up by scripture. But- when you turn to the Torah, you find exactly what sin is. Because sin is the transgression of the law. So, to modesty, I guess I'm wondering for women's sake, how do we find the concrete agreeable answer to what is modesty? On judgment day, what one woman is condemned for will another receive a pass on because it was her cultural norm? If nudity is a cultural norm does that make it right? ( As in tribal customs, those who hear the Gospel and convert)- should they stick to their nudity as a cultural norm in their modesty commanded by scripture? For women who really want to be modest, it seems very difficult because there is no line drawn in the sand.

In one church setting you are modest, in the next they are condemning you for your makeup, or choice of hairstyle, or pants, or dress length. and heal size... it goes on and on. If you say my husband approves of this they may snear and still mark you as one dressed as a harlot. It's very hard to concretely find the 'IMAGE' of a "Christian" woman because it changes across the board. Take Muslims for example, you can spot them by dress. Yes, they have different levels of coverage within their faith but overall, those who wear hijab states to all what they are. Sometimes in public, when I vail, people think I am Muslim. Anyways, this is getting long, but any answers to this is helpful. I'm been studying modesty for a while and seem to go in circles as there is no concrete answers and I feel like I'm on the spinning wheel like how I felt before I became Torah observant and used to ask, "What is sin?" Now, because of the law I know what sin is. But, in modesty, I do not....

You ARE correct. Before I came to Torah, I studied the anabaptist sects pretty thoroughly because I admired their strong sense of community and work ethic. I learned that each community sets their own standards for dress, etc., and they would not impose their standard on anyone else, as they were not part of their community. I think that is a relatively good starting point. One chooses whether to be a part of that particular community and it's standards. Some things are personal, and can't be nailed down as sin as the Torah does not speak specifically to it, so in a sense it really is between you, your husband and Yah.

 

[rockfox]

They are all delivered through the God given "chain of authority" which is clearly defined in 1 Cor. 11 as God> Messiah> Man> Woman.... Modesty means appropriate to the occasion. As far as the question of what clothing, makeup, head covering etc... a woman should be wearing and what is appropriate for a given occasion it really is at the discretion of her covering (husband / father etc...) The scriptures are virtually silent on this issue and the doctrines of man have been forced upon believers for centuries through cherry picked passages and strong personal opinions.

And yet Paul does those very things in 1 Tim 2.

That passage doesn't talk about 'appropriate for given occasion'. That's not in the passage or in the underlying language. Rather it commands modest apparel that is discrete and shamefaced. You're redefining words to try and free yourself from being held to any standard. Your position is entirely unsupported, contradicted even, by scripture.

Yes, a woman should follow her husbands directions. But good teachers and elders will preach the whole council of God follows Paul's lead in instructing men and women how they ought to behave in this matter.

A lot of Christian men and women need to learn a bit about shamefacedness. I see clothing in church on wives and little girls alike that would make a hooker blush 60 years ago.

 

[The Revolting Man]

And yet Paul does those very things in 1 Tim 2.

That passage doesn't talk about 'appropriate for given occasion'. That's not in the passage or in the underlying language. Rather it commands modest apparel that is discrete and shamefaced. You're redefining words to try and free yourself from being held to any standard. Your position is entirely unsupported, contradicted even, by scripture.

Yes, a woman should follow her husbands directions. But good teachers and elders will preach the whole council of God follows Paul's lead in instructing men and women how they ought to behave in this matter.

A lot of Christian men and women need to learn a bit about shamefacedness. I see clothing in church on wives and little girls alike that would make a hooker blush 60 years ago.

Incorrect . Paul tells them to be dressed with good works so if you’re looking for a hard fast rule here you’re going to save a ton in clothes. The operative clause here is verse 9 “..also that the women dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing...”. That is a subjective standard.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

And yet Paul does those very things in 1 Tim 2.

That passage doesn't talk about 'appropriate for given occasion'. That's not in the passage or in the underlying language. Rather it commands modest apparel that is discrete and shamefaced. You're redefining words to try and free yourself from being held to any standard. Your position is entirely unsupported, contradicted even, by scripture.

Yes, a woman should follow her husbands directions. But good teachers and elders will preach the whole council of God follows Paul's lead in instructing men and women how they ought to behave in this matter.

A lot of Christian men and women need to learn a bit about shamefacedness. I see clothing in church on wives and little girls alike that would make a hooker blush 60 years ago.

The emphasis is not on what she’s wearing but on why she’s wearing it. There are plenty of women in churches today who’s skin or even shape is covered from the throat down, who are in violation of that verse, while some topless women in African churches are obeying it. It’s not the clothes, it’s the reasons they are being worn that is the issue.

 

[Mrs.HisPossession]

A married woman should dress in a way that would not signal to men that she is interested in their attention. Remember that we’re told not to let jewelry and hair be a woman’s glory, what we admire about her or all she’s required to do to be admired. We’re not actually forbidden from wearing such things. That being said I am always suspicious of a woman with noticeably manicured nails and always predisposed to admire a woman with her head covered.

It's interesting how culture can change things because my husband says that when he sees a woman veiled, it doesnt mean much because it could just be a fashion statement. This is because in the African and African American ccommunities, covering the hair with wraps and scarves can be for many reasons. Sometimes its just because your hair is not done. Other times its just because the outfit comes with a wrap. Modesty has very little to do with it in most cases.

 

[Mrs.HisPossession]

Isaiah 47:2-3 KJV
Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. [3] Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.

* This is what we personally are trying to come to the conclusion of if this sets the standard of nakedness for a woman.


Genesis 38:14-15 KJV
And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. [15] When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.

* Apparently, full coverage veiling meant a prostitute here. What are your thoughts on that?

 

[The Revolting Man]

It's interesting how culture can change things because my husband says that when he sees a woman veiled, it doesnt mean much because it could just be a fashion statement. This is because in the African and African American ccommunities, covering the hair with wraps and scarves can be for many reasons. Sometimes its just because your hair is not done. Other times its just because the outfit comes with a wrap. Modesty has very little to do with it in most cases.

Good point. For us it is more of a statement but it shouldn’t be the only standard.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Isaiah 47:2-3 KJV
Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. [3] Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.

* This is what we personally are trying to come to the conclusion of if this sets the standard of nakedness for a woman.


Genesis 38:14-15 KJV
And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. [15] When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.

* Apparently, full coverage veiling meant a prostitute here. What are your thoughts on that?

That’s a good question, and both of them are great passages. Fortunately, both are fairly descriptive, unfortunately, both contain descriptions I’m not sure anyone is familiar enough with today to give you a definitive answer. To do so, one would need to be very versed in both of those cultures, which may not have been the same, as they are describing cultural descriptions of two different eras, almost 1000 years apart.

 

[rockfox]

Incorrect . Paul tells them to be dressed with good works so if you’re looking for a hard fast rule here you’re going to save a ton in clothes. The operative clause here is verse 9 “..also that the women dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing...”. That is a subjective standard.

Also. Good works yes, but also modest clothing.

Subjective? Only because Christians have lost all sense of shame.

The emphasis is not on what she’s wearing but on why she’s wearing it. There are plenty of women in churches today who’s skin or even shape is covered from the throat down, who are in violation of that verse, while some topless women in African churches are obeying it. It’s not the clothes, it’s the reasons they are being worn that is the issue.

Oh really?

"I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly,"

No "why" there. It doesn't matter WHY she wears something if its not discrete or modest. Again, you're reading into the passage what isn't there.

Come on guys, you are better than this ridiculously transparent reading of things into the passage to cancel out the instruction to dress modestly.

Isaiah 47:2-3 KJV
Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. [3] Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.

* This is what we personally are trying to come to the conclusion of if this sets the standard of nakedness for a woman.


Genesis 38:14-15 KJV
And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. [15] When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.

* Apparently, full coverage veiling meant a prostitute here. What are your thoughts on that?

You may be right. You could certainly do far worse than following that.

For much of Christian history women wore a covering over their hair all the time. So too did their dresses go to the floor. The covering of the hair later degraded to just while at church; I suspect sometime around the industrial revolution. Then it became fancy hats in the late 19th. Then no covering at all.

 

[Pacman]

Also. Good works yes, but also modest clothing.

Subjective? Only because Christians have lost all sense of shame.



Oh really?

"I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly,"

No "why" there. It doesn't matter WHY she wears something if its not discrete or modest. Again, you're reading into the passage what isn't there.

Come on guys, you are better than this ridiculously transparent reading of things into the passage to cancel out the instruction to dress modestly.

come on @rockfox you’re better than this. You know you can’t pull one phrase out of a verse completely divorce it from context and then build a doctrine from it. Which is exactly what churchianity did for centuries on this issue. The context is godliness and humility and submission not “sexy clothing”

1 Timothy 2:8-15 WEB
[8] I desire therefore that the men in every place pray, lifting up holy hands without anger and doubting. [9] In the same way, that women also adorn themselves in decent clothing, with modesty and propriety; not just with braided hair, gold, pearls, or expensive clothing; [10] but (which becomes women professing godliness) with good works. [11] Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection. [12] But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness. [13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [14] Adam wasn't deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience; [15] but she will be saved through her childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.


While I’m calling people on taking things out of context I want to point out one other thing that I have seen from multiple people. Stop making head covering into a “modesty” issue this idea is supported no where in scripture and as far as I can tell is simply a tradition of man. Head covering is important and I believe that all men should have their women wearing them but it’s a submission issue not a “modesty” issue.

I’m putting “modesty” in quotes because I’m referring to the traditional understanding of the word as “non sexual” if folks are using modesty with the biblical definition of “appropriate to the occasion” then yes head coverings fit that definition...