What is Hell?

[Luke S]

There is no Hell because that implies that Jesus has failed in His mission of saving humankind.

Hell also implies that Lord can't do what He desires: save everyone.

It also implies that our will is more important than His will and that He doesn't any tools to make us willing choose what He wants.

Don't ask me about afterlife. All I know is there are firstborn and Lord will save all.

and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast — the two — to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;
Revelation 19:20

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages.
Revelation 20:10


You've got at least two people here that are not saved, and definitely not in heaven. Just saying.

 

[Luke S]

It's quite simple, really:

The dead go to Sheol, which seems to be equated with "Hades" in the Greek. As y'all have pointed out in Luke, there is the good side with Abraham and Lazarus, the place of torment with the rich man, and the chasm in between. Now, I personally speculate that the chasm contains Tartarus, which Peter talks about, and is the bottomless pit where Satan will be imprisoned, but that's personal speculation. The good side of Hades is Paradise. Paradise is where Christ went -- where He told the thief on the cross he would be with Him in.

We know from the sign of Jonah that Paradise is in the belly of the earth. Since we know from Luke that it can be seen from the place of torment across the chasm, these are therefore reasonably in the belly of the earth as well. Thus, Hades/Sheol would encompass these three things in the belly of the earth. "Paradise" is not Heaven, where the throne room is. We also know from Revelation 3 that the Tree of Life is presently in Paradise, thus in the belly of the earth. Paul mentions Paradise and the third Heaven as separate as well.

Likewise, as a side note, the Greek word paradeisos is the Septuagint word for the Hebrew word "gan", which means "garden". The Paradise of Eden, if you will.

Now, Sheol is presently occupied by the dead. Those in Paradise will be brought to Heaven at the Rapture, when Christ comes for His disciples and His people, at our gathering to Him. Tribulation martyrs go to Heaven as well. We are there in Heaven from that point to the Second Coming, when the saints return to earth with Christ, and then rule and reign in the thousand year Kingdom. After that is the Great White throne. Note -- people who die during the Millennium Reign would be in Sheol -- hence why Hades gives up it's dead and they are all checked to see if they're in the Book of Life.

Going into New Jerusalem time, you have those who are in the Lake of Fire forever and ever, the overcomers of this world who are made pillars in New Jerusalem and never leave, and the people outside the city, which is subdivided at least into the kings of the nations, the sons of the kingdom cast to outer darkness, and the unclean, which entails the Gehenna judgement.

 

[frederick]

I personally believe Heaven is with G-d and Hell is outside the Golf outside of Heaven and yet all with G-d.
But far on the outer areas.

View attachment 4168

Jesus taught saying, “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom, which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. .... “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; .... And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:31-34, 41, 46).

Jesus obviously believed in a place of eternal punishment because He taught it as a future reality. It is a place prepared for those who are NOT righteous. Just as the blessings of eternal life are eternal so the suffering of eternal punishment is eternal - Jesus used the same word to refer to each state.

In Rev. 20:10 we are told more about the final judgement; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. The words forever and ever are in an emphatic form of the word translated eternal in Matt. 25:46; i.e. it is absolutely definitely eternal.

And for anyone who is still doubtful, we are told in Rev. 20:15; And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. That is the place Jesus said is the place of eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46).

What one might believe about eternity won't change what Jesus Himself has to say about it, so it's always best to bring one's thinking into line with what is written and believe it.

 

[James Pease]

There is no Hell because that implies that Jesus has failed in His mission of saving humankind.

Hell also implies that Lord can't do what He desires: save everyone.

It also implies that our will is more important than His will and that He doesn't any tools to make us willing choose what He wants.

Don't ask me about afterlife. All I know is there are firstborn and Lord will save all.

The same deception got Eve too. Certainly you will not die.

 

[HomesteadWife]

But before G-d Created The Angels, Before Satan fell and before Eve got Adam to eat the fruit. G-d Knew Everything and Nothing can change that.

I agree on this. All choices and outcomes are seen and known by Him. Whether that implies choice/free will vs. following His plan as it is already set is a different discussion.

In my previous post I had been focusing on arguing against the "all must be saved" viewpoint.

 

[AbrahamSolomon]

Jesus taught saying, “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom, which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. .... “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; .... And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:31-34, 41, 46).

Jesus obviously believed in a place of eternal punishment because He taught it as a future reality. It is a place prepared for those who are NOT righteous. Just as the blessings of eternal life are eternal so the suffering of eternal punishment is eternal - Jesus used the same word to refer to each state.

In Rev. 20:10 we are told more about the final judgement; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. The words forever and ever are in an emphatic form of the word translated eternal in Matt. 25:46; i.e. it is absolutely definitely eternal.

And for anyone who is still doubtful, we are told in Rev. 20:15; And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. That is the place Jesus said is the place of eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46).

What one might believe about eternity won't change what Jesus Himself has to say about it, so it's always best to bring one's thinking into line with what is written and believe it.

The verse said it was hot on the other side of The Gulf, maybe that is Hell?

 

[AbrahamSolomon]

I agree on this. All choices and outcomes are seen and known by Him. Whether that implies choice/free will vs. following His plan as it is already set is a different discussion.

In my previous post I had been focusing on arguing against the "all must be saved" viewpoint.

True.

 

[frederick]

The verse said it was hot on the other side of The Gulf, maybe that is Hell?

Matt. 25:41 eternal fire
Rev. 20:10 the lake of fire and brimstone
Rev. 20:15 the lake of fire
Call it what you will but "hot" it most certainly will be.

 

[AbrahamSolomon]

Matt. 25:41 eternal fire
Rev. 20:10 the lake of fire and brimstone
Rev. 20:15 the lake of fire
Call it what you will but "hot" it most certainly will be.

The City Dump was an Everlasting Fire that never dies. (Lake of Fire)

But I agree no one should want to go there.

Hell: The Grave
Hell: The City Dump/The Lake of Fire
Hell: The Valley
Hell: The 2nd Death

 

[James Pease]

The City Dump was an Everlasting Fire that never dies. (Lake of Fire)

But I agree no one should want to go there.

That's scholarly accepted but not biblically nor historically supported. The heaping trash dump outside the city that is. The valley of the son of Hinnom does hold some interesting viewpoints. My understanding was that valley of the son of Hinnom was the Hebrew and Gehenna was the Greek.

 

[AbrahamSolomon]

That's scholarly accepted but not biblically nor historically supported. The heaping trash dump outside the city that is. The valley of the son of Hinnom does hold some interesting viewpoints. My understanding was that valley of the son of Hinnom was the Hebrew and Gehenna was the Greek.

I have studied under both Christian and Jewish Scholars for over 10 years and still see stuff I've overlooked.
That is why we should never stop seeking G-ds Word.

 

[MemeFan]

Our creator gave us the choice to follow his will or not. Thus we have rules and laws that He means for us to follow. No one is perfect, but if repentance is there He will forgive.

Yes, He loves all people but that does not mean all will be saved. He meant for all the angels to be with him for eternity, yet Lucifer and the other angels fell with no forgiveness possible. His will involves us making the choice to love and serve Him. Jesus came to wash away the sins of all mankind, but not everyone chooses to accept that gift.

and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast — the two — to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;
Revelation 19:20

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages.
Revelation 20:10


You've got at least two people here that are not saved, and definitely not in heaven. Just saying.

The same deception got Eve too. Certainly you will not die.

Bible must logically consistent with itself.

But all truth and even reality must also be consistent. Otherwise, there would be inconsistencies in nature and reality which never happen.

Let's think as detective. Did Jesus commit act of saving everybody? Did He have motive, power and opportunity to do act? Yes to all. Therefore is logically follows that Jesus did save all.

Above sentence doesn't imply that all will saved in one "go" or in this age.

If Lord in finally of time allows our will in rejecting Him be more important to Him than saving us and restoring love between us and Him something is terribly wrong in your theology or with His moral system.

What kind of person claim that he is good father full of love and doing nothing while time allowing his child to drug himself to death? Lier, asshole and hypocrite. What kind of love is satisfied with keeping distance while loved person is destroying himself? There is no such love.

Moral system always contains hierachy of values. Something is always more important than something else. Supporters of Hell for rejecting offer of salvation must also claim that in Lord's moral system human will is more important than His love of us. And that Lord will respect human will in eternity.

Doctrine of universal salvation comes from Christianity's earlies days:

History of Christian universalism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[frederick]

Bible must logically consistent with itself.

But all truth and even reality must also be consistent. Otherwise, there would be inconsistencies in nature and reality which never happen.

Let's think as detective. Did Jesus commit act of saving everybody? Did He have motive, power and opportunity to do act? Yes to all. Therefore is logically follows that Jesus did save all.

Above sentence doesn't imply that all will saved in one "go" or in this age.

If Lord in finally of time allows our will in rejecting Him be more important to Him than saving us and restoring love between us and Him something is terribly wrong in your theology or with His moral system.

What kind of person claim that he is good father full of love and doing nothing while time allowing his child to drug himself to death? Lier, asshole and hypocrite. What kind of love is satisfied with keeping distance while loved person is destroying himself? There is no such love.

Moral system always contains hierachy of values. Something is always more important than something else. Supporters of Hell for rejecting offer of salvation must also claim that in Lord's moral system human will is more important than His love of us. And that Lord will respect human will in eternity.

Doctrine of universal salvation comes from Christianity's earlies days:

History of Christian universalism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is much better to start with what is actually written in the Bible and form one's beliefs from there (about everything!) because our natural predisposition runs counter to who God is and His will and purpose. Proverbs 3:5 Trust in Yahweh with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

 

[HomesteadWife]

Bible must logically consistent with itself.

But all truth and even reality must also be consistent. Otherwise, there would be inconsistencies in nature and reality which never happen.

Let's think as detective. Did Jesus commit act of saving everybody? Did He have motive, power and opportunity to do act? Yes to all. Therefore is logically follows that Jesus did save all.

Above sentence doesn't imply that all will saved in one "go" or in this age.

If Lord in finally of time allows our will in rejecting Him be more important to Him than saving us and restoring love between us and Him something is terribly wrong in your theology or with His moral system.

What kind of person claim that he is good father full of love and doing nothing while time allowing his child to drug himself to death? Lier, asshole and hypocrite. What kind of love is satisfied with keeping distance while loved person is destroying himself? There is no such love.

Moral system always contains hierachy of values. Something is always more important than something else. Supporters of Hell for rejecting offer of salvation must also claim that in Lord's moral system human will is more important than His love of us. And that Lord will respect human will in eternity.

Doctrine of universal salvation comes from Christianity's earlies days:

https://en.wikipedia.org

Matthew 25:31-46 KJV​

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[James Pease]

I have studied under both Christian and Jewish Scholars for over 10 years and still see stuff I've overlooked.
That is why we should never stop seeking G-ds Word.

Amen brother.

 

[Shiloh.F]

Jesus DID save everyone. His blood is sufficient for all. Those who reject Him will suffer the wages of the sin they were born into and lived in; the second death. Which the Bible says in the scriptures mentioned above is “everlasting “ and “forever and ever”.

“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭17‬-‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

John 3:17-18 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned alre | New King James Version (NKJV) | Do

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned alre

bible.com

 

[LDremoved]

This particular debate could get hairy. Hell isn’t well defined in the Bible and methinks that was by design.

Interesting. I'm glad this question was asked, I've been stalling on asking it myself.

 

[FollowingHim]

What about people who never had chance to hear aboit Jesus because they were born before Ge was born. They will be anhinilated according to you. So our Lord loves them so little that even offer of salvation isn't worth to send to them?

I believe He will judge them justly, in terms of how they responded to what information was available to them about God. I think the results will surprise all of us.

But before G-d Created The Angels, Before Satan fell and before Eve got Adam to eat the fruit. G-d Knew Everything and Nothing can change that.

You're still mixing up "knowledge" and "control" - we just had this discussion on a different thread. The fact that God knows everything does not in any way imply that He intends to control everything, or has failed if He chooses not to.

 

[MeganC]

You're still mixing up "knowledge" and "control" - we just had this discussion on a different thread. The fact that God knows everything does not in any way imply that He intends to control everything, or has failed if He chooses not to.

Amen. God did not create us to be puppets.

 

[FollowingHim]

In Rev. 20:10 we are told more about the final judgement; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. The words forever and ever are in an emphatic form of the word translated eternal in Matt. 25:46; i.e. it is absolutely definitely eternal.

Absolutely, the beast and the prophet will be tormented forever. But what about the bulk of mankind?

And for anyone who is still doubtful, we are told in Rev. 20:15; And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. That is the place Jesus said is the place of eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46).

I completely agree it is possible that this means they are tormented forever.

However, I also feel it is equally possible that the punishment lasts forever, because they are no more and have no opportunity to restore their life. So they are burnt to death (not exactly nice), and then don't exist. A mortal may not be capable of surviving such a thing - and we are not told the condemned receive "eternal life" before being thrown into the lake of fire, we are only told that the saved receive "eternal life" - and how could anybody survive boiling in burning lava without first being made immortal?

The punishment is frequently called the "second death", and to me that term "second death" seems to be contradicted if it actually means "eternal life - but with pain". The only way I can see of reconciling ALL the verses on this, rather than just selected proof-texts, is to see punishment, eternity, and death all as real - and combine them as stated above (punishment in the lake of fire leading to death for eternity). Anything else seems to me to be falling into one or the other ditch, taking one set of proof-texts so strongly that you have to redefine the others.

Eternal torment means redefining the "second death" to not mean death at all. While no torment means redefining the lake of fire to be figurative. And universalism means ignoring all of it.

I could however be entirely wrong, as @The Revolting Man said - there just aren't many verses to go on. We don't need to know the detail.

Provided we see that people who follow God will get "something really good", and people who reject him will get "something really bad", we don't really need to know the detail to motivate us to obedience!