Meat Why the 'mia' mis-translation can only be settled in 'the ghetto'

[Mark C]

The Greek word 'mia' - oft-discussed here, and "obvious once you see it," has multiple meanings, which can only be discerned correctly by context:

It can mean, "a" - the article,
"first" - as in, first in a sequence, or,
"one," sometimes even thought to mean "one and only" - when there's a bone to be picked.

So - in the two almost identical references to the term phrase rendered in part as "mia wife man" in letters by Shaul/Paul to Timothy and Titus, the possible descriptions for an "elder" (or 'bishop,' or 'overseer,' etc - but that's another argument) are:

"one wife man,"
"first-wife man,
or "a wife man."

Question obviously arise. Did he man a man of ONLY one wife, or at LEAST one wife? Does he mean "Still-marrred?" Which could exclude both divorcees, and widowers. Or did he mean a man who has at LEAST been married, and is still; any number immaterial?


The context is vital. But in a world where that context is ASSUMED to be 'monogamania' -there is only one answer, and it is demonstrably WRONG. Easily wrong. Fatally-flawed wrong.

The correct, undeniable answer can only be discussed HERE on BF (whether that's still true or not, we'll see...)

And it's clear for a multitude of obvious reasons, directly from Scripture. All consistent, all straight-forward. All offensive to some. (But the Messiah already warned us about that.)

Any of these arguments are sufficient, all are consistent:

- Deuteronomy 4:2, and 12:31 BOTH say it is forbidden to "add to" OR to "subtract from" what He Wrote as "Instruction" for us.

Ergo, if Paul was doing EITHER - 'adding to' His requirements, like a numerical limit, or removing one, he would have been (by his own word!) "a liar, and the Truth not in him. ESPECIALLY if it contradicted His Written Word!

QED.

- Yahushua Himself said, in His "first public address" (Matthew chapters 5 through 7) that He did not come to do away with so much as "one yod or tiddle" of His own Word. Which is what He WOULD have said, since He was, is, and will be what He said: He changes NOT.

If He had "raised the bar" for adultery, or changed the meaning, or added a requirment (monogamy) that was contrary to the very "foundations", the Rock itself, upon which all the rest was built, "line by line, precept by precept," He would have been...a "liar and the Truth not in Him.

QED.

There are many, many others.

It's easy once you see it. If He is not CONSISTENT, from "Genesis to Maps" -- then somebody is lying. Guess Who it is NOT?

 

[The Revolting Man]

I get so sick of this claim. It’s brain dead. There are places all over scripture where God changed His instructions to us. He doesn’t change but what He tells us to does.

Adam had two commands. Moses had many. Abraham could marry his sister, no one can anymore. There wasn’t a Tabernacle, then there was a Tabernacle, then there wasn’t a Tabernacle and there was a Temple. Then that went away too.

The same with the priesthood, it wasn’t there, then it was there, then it wasn’t there. Passover changed within a few years of it being a change by being instituted.

All of the Feasts were changes to God’s Law because there was a period of time when they weren’t present yet.

You just can’t make this claim and expect to be taken seriously. God doesn’t change but He changes His systems all the time.

 

[Mark C]

I get so sick of your sneering. If you can't avoid being vitriolic, at least try to say something relevant to the TOPIC.

And of COURSE He changed things! That's just an idiotic irrelevance. He kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden, didn't He? And He exiled both His whoring wives for doing what He said NOT to do, too, didn't He?

And then He said what He did in Matthew 5:17.

And WE change, or should, when we learn enough OF His Instruction to handle meat instead of milk. Go get a glass.

The point here is to discuss His Word, without the kind of crap you thrive in pitching.

 

[Mark C]

"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of YHVH your God which I command you." (Deuteronomy 4:2, repeated in Deuteronomy 12:31 for the brain dead.)

I get so sick of this claim. It’s brain dead.

Why don't you go moderate Him? It's His Word you evidently object to.

And THAT, one, BTW, WAS in fact a "commandment!"

 

[The Revolting Man]

I want to hear you say it. Say, “ God changed His Laws at certain points”

 

[The Revolting Man]

If He had "raised the bar" for adultery, or changed the meaning, or added a requirment (monogamy) that was contrary to the very "foundations", the Rock itself, upon which all the rest was built, "line by line, precept by precept," He would have been...a "liar and the Truth not in Him.

Here’s your error. God raised the bar on moral precepts many times. At the Fall, at the Flood, at Sinai, again before the entered the Land, when a King was allowed, when the Temple was built, when the Kingdoms split and in and on and on.

God doesn’t change. He will and does change His Laws.

 

[Earth_is-]

Psalm 19:7 NLT
The instructions of the LORD are perfect, reviving the soul. The decrees of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.

If something is “perfect” it doesn’t need changes.

The Creator never wrote anything in his law limiting rulers and leaders from having more than one wife. There is an instruction prohibiting kings from having a great number of wives, but King David did not break this commandment; even though he had over 10 wives.

Moses was a leader/elder for his people, and he had multiple wives. Was Paul saying Moses does not qualify to be an elder at some little congregation?

An elder needs to be an older man. A man that has at least one wife. So people can ascertain his fruit. If he cannot manage his own household, then how can he manage a congregation? If a man is having trouble with one wife - what business does he have seeking a 2nd? Same concept applies.

 

[The Revolting Man]

If something is “perfect” it doesn’t need changes.

So you’re saying that the Old Testament wasn’t perfect since it was in fact changed?

We can’t escape this one fact, scripture records God ordained changes to the moral Laws. If you deny this then you’re either not reading the. Bible or you don’t believe it.

 

[Mark C]

God doesn’t change. He will and does change His Laws.

The Almighty Zec has spoken! Who is YHVH Almighty to disagree, regardless of what His Word says.

I'm sick of responding to idiots who play god because somebody gave them a moderator badge.

 

[Mark C]

I want to hear you say it. Say, “ God changed His Laws at certain points”

Or what? You'll delete more threads? Ban me again? Come up with some more 'rules'?


I want to hear you say it: "What god said doesn't matter. In THIS forum, it's Revolting or it's nothing at all!"

 

[Mark C]

The “No Sneering” rule still applies.

Except to those who play god here.

Following Him: To be clear, this rule applies to moderators also, and we will try our best to be consistent.

The hell it does. And the hypocrisy is just plain Revolting.

And this should be ridiculed as it so richly deserves:

-Excessively sneering or vitriolic posts will be deleted. If you can’t say something nice then don’t say anything at all.

Guess what self-important hypocrite wrote THAT?

 

[Mark C]

The purpose of this section of the forum was supposed to be about discussing His Torah. Without fear or harassment from unbelievers, scoffers, and the just plain hateful.

I expressed concern on Day One that it would be treated like a ghetto by those with a Gestapo mentality.

I rest my case.


Anybody on here actually want to allow "iron to sharpen iron"?


So - here goes:

We can’t escape this one fact, scripture records God ordained changes to the moral Laws.

So NAME ONE of those, dammit!!!!!!!!

(And hint - some of us know the meaning of words. Cite JUST ONE "statute, judgment, or commandment" that He actually changed! FROM SCRIPTURE!)

And then show us how He LIED when He said He would not do that.

Or shut up, butt out, and let those of us who know what we are talking about do just that!

 

[The Revolting Man]

The Almighty Zec has spoken! Who is YHVH Almighty to disagree, regardless of what His Word says.

I'm sick of responding to idiots who play god because somebody gave them a moderator badge.

You’re trying to avoid the fact that there are changes to the Law, even before Christ. There are changes that can’t be blamed on Paul or Constantine or any number of poor benighted fools maligned with the noun turned prefix “whore”.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Or what? You'll delete more threads? Ban me again? Come up with some more 'rules'?


I want to hear you say it: "What god said doesn't matter. In THIS forum, it's Revolting or it's nothing at all!"

To the contrary, what God said is all that matters. He told them to keep Passover one way in the wilderness and another way in the Land, but there were decades in between those two promulgations.

God changed a moral Law He had set. He can do that. He’s God.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Except to those who play god here.

Fair enough. You do frustrate me and I do go to my corner a little too readily. I’ll watch the sneering.

 

[The Revolting Man]

many times. At the Fall, at the Flood, at Sinai, again before the entered the Land, when a King was allowed, when the Temple was built, when the Kingdoms split and in and on and on.

Here’s just a short list of times when explicit commands were changed. The Tabernacle was a huge change with dozens of direct commands about how it was to be built completely done away with. Abraham and Sarah, Adam’s diet, the list goes on.

So NAME ONE of those, dammit!!!!!!!!

See above.

And then show us how He LIED when He said He would not do that.

God never lies. @Mark C however frequently gets wrapped around the axle about things he hasn’t thought through. God has changed His Law and will again; just see Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8.

Or shut up, butt out, and let those of us who know what we are talking about do just that!

I’m sorry Mark but nothing you have ever said has led anyone to think you know what you’re talking about. Indictments of whoredom are not theological arguments.

 

[steve]

I plead stupidity.
I totally don’t understand what @Mark C wrote that was controversial.

Please enlighten me in a way that a public school student would understand.

 

[Mark C]

He told them to keep Passover one way in the wilderness and another way in the Land, but there were decades in between those two promulgations.

You fail to discern between "statutes," "judgments," and "commandments," as opposed to customs, traditions, or practices.

He NEVER told them, "thou shalt murder." But He did command them to kill.

And He never told them to IGNORE His 'moedim,' but some 'church' did.

And the fact that He destroyed the temple - for cause - did NOT mean that He doesn't STILL tell us to "remember" His Appointed Times. But we obviously can't do it the same way, much less in the same place.

Which has NOTHING to do with whether He changed His COMMANDMENT to not "add to," or "subtract from" the "the commandments of YHVH your God which I command you." The Messiah Himself did NOT.

 

[PeteR]

I completely agree with @Mark C The Torah was complete before Creation. It has never changed and will never change.

From an article I wrote about ten years ago...

But, that wasn’t given until Sinai, right? At least that is what I used to think.

Is there evidence of at least parts of the Torah in Genesis? Yep. Let’s look at some of them to demonstrate that Abraham had much of, if not all of, the Torah commandments.

References from Genesis:

4:4 “Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions.” (How did Abel know ‘firstling’ and ‘fat portion?’)

4:14-15 “…whoever finds me will kill me.” 15 So the Lord said to him, “Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him.” (How did Cain know anyone finding him would be justified in slaying him?)

4:26 “…At that time people began to worship Yahweh.” (How did they know? And, an aside… why don’t we call on the name, Yahweh?)

6:5 & 9 “…the wickedness of man was great on the earth…Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.” (How could God justifiably declare man wicked if man had no standard? By what standard was Noah declared righteous? (Romans 4:15 and 1 John 3:4)

7:2 “You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female;..” (Where is the definition of clean and unclean? Did Noach know that intuitively or did he have the Torah definition?)

8:20 “Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.” (We have seen altars, but how did Noach know only clean animals on the altar?)

9:23 “But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were turned away, so that they did not see their father’s nakedness.” (How did they know it was sin to look on their father’s nakedness? And how was ‘righteous Noach’ justified in cursing Ham?)

13:13 “Now the men of Sodom were wicked exceedingly and sinners against the Lord.” (By what standard could they be declared sinners against Yahweh? How did they know their particular activity was sin? How was Yahweh justified in judging them if they didn’t know it was sin?)

17:1 “…’I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be blameless…'” (What does it mean to ‘walk before God? What is the definition of being ‘blameless?’ How did Avram know?)

18:19-25 “For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” … their sin is exceedingly grave… Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?…Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” (What is ‘the way of Yahweh?’ What is the definition of righteousness? How does Avraham know the difference in righteousness and wickedness? How does he know the definition of a Just Judge? And who is the Just Judge?)

Getting the picture? Avraham KNEW and OBEYED Yahweh’s Torah! His faith was demonstrated in obedience to Torah. Genesis 26:5 proves this when Yahweh says He will honor His oath to Avraham “because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

There are more passages after this in Genesis demonstrating that Avraham’s descendants KNEW and kept Torah. Mt. Sinai was the giving of the covenant to ALL of Israel and further defining the relationship they were to have before the Father, but Torah was already in place.

Three such classic examples of detailed Torah observance in Genesis by Avraham’s descendant Judah:

38:24 “Now it was about three months later that Judah was informed, “Your daughter-in-law Tamar has played the harlot, and behold, she is also with child by harlotry.” Then Judah said, “Bring her out and let her be burned!”” (How did he know the penalty for the daughter of a priest was to be burned? …you may need to do some reading in the Book of Jashar to identify who Tamar’s father was… Find that obscure Torah law in Leviticus…. or ask in the comments section. ;o) )

38:26 “Judah recognized them, and said, “She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not have relations with her again.” (How did Judah know she had acted righteously? How did he know he was to give her to Shelah?)

39:9 “There is no one greater in this house than I, and he has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do this great evil and sin against God?” (How did Joseph know that adultery was a sin against Yahweh?)

Those who believe that the ‘faith of Abraham’ is somehow superior to that of the Children of Israel at/after Mt. Sinai, walk in delusion. Avraham’s faith was based on an objective concrete standard that is not defined for the reader until Mt. Sinai, but the clues and context of Genesis point over and over to Torah in toto.

Ya’acov (James) says, ‘Faith without works is dead.’ Avraham demonstrates that the works that justify (according to Ya’acov) is Torah.

Lest anyone misunderstand, we are saved by faith through grace to DO good works prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. I.e ‘walk as Yeshua our Messiah walked.’ (1 John 2:3-7)

The faith of Abraham should lead us to walk according to Yahweh’s standard, Torah.

 

[PeteR]

And, another article I wrote:

Before the Foundation of the World! Implications…​

Posted on February 27, 2014 by Pete Rambo
Last week I was pondering something interesting. “The law is spiritual, therefore, it can’t be done away with!”
I had determined to study and write about it, but you can tell by recent content that I have not had time to focus on writing some deeper posts. (I think that is working itself out..)
Then, last night, several interesting pieces suddenly came into focus!!
Our fellowship’s Wednesday evening Torah study group has been watching/working through Dr. Hollisa Alewine’s Creation Gospel video series. Our normal practice is to watch the whole video and then discuss. Well, in the middle of part 6a, a much shorter segment than most, Brother Dean turns to me and asks, ‘Uhmm, can we pause that?’
‘Sure! I was thinking the same thing!!’
As soon as I hit ‘pause,’ Sis Paulette exclaimed, ‘Wow! Thank you! I am just blown away…’ And, a spirited discussion began, leading to one of the longest Wednesday evening fellowships in recent memory!
Dr. Alewine was considering the significance of Yeshua, keeping His Father’s commandments, as ‘all things were created by Him and through Him,’ before day six, the creation of man. And, because the commandments define and reveal Him, the Living Word, they had to pre-exist creation!
It was at this point that fireworks went off in my head!! A dozen different things from the last couple weeks of reading and study suddenly converged!
I’m still processing, but let’s consider some parts of this!!
Revelation 13:8 says,

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been [a]written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Some translations:

in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

There are multiple other verses that help support our understanding that the redemption of God’s people occurred outside of time, though we experience it in time. Or, as the above verse explains, it happened before the world was created.
1 Peter 1:18-20,

knowing that you were not [a]redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared [b]in these last times for the sake of you

Ephesians 1:3-7,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

1 Timothy 1:9,

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

So we see multiple witnesses in Scripture evidencing that this transaction took place before time. Notice specifically in the last verse: ‘grace was given to us before time began!!’
Now, here is where it converges with my thoughts from last week.
Several major items to consider:

• In order for Yeshua to redeem us before the foundation of the world, the sin which He was the substitutionary atonement for had to have been identified. We know the definition of sin is breaking the Law, therefore, the Law/Torah HAD to exist before the foundation of the world!!
• Grace cannot exist in the absence of law, therefore, Paul in his letter to Timothy confirms the presence of Law/Torah ‘before time began’ when he says ‘grace was given to us before time began!!’
• ‘In the beginning was the Word,’ and Yeshua being the Living Word is revealed by the written Word/Torah, such that again we confirm the pre-existence of the Torah.
• Paul also says the Law is spiritual. That which is spiritual does not die. It may have a beginning, but I can’t think of an example of it having an end. (I’ll keep pondering this…)

The bottom-line is that the Torah and the grace given us in Messiah Yeshua were in place before the foundation of the world!!
Another item I read in the last several days concerning the High Priesthood connects with this as well. William Sanford, in his comments on Parsha Pekudei (accounts of) in the Messianic Aleph-Tav Scriptures, says,

We see that the priestly garments in Ex. 29:1 and the ephod in Ex. 39:2 are sacred and they are made for Ta to wear as Aaron stands in His stead as High Priest to serve hwhy Father….

Because Abraham paid a tithe to Melchitzedek, Levi/Aaron were subservient to that High Priest before they were born and therefore, Aaron’s High Priesthood was always a simple placeholder! Why? Our High Priest had acted on our behalf before time began!!
Therefore, the Torah/Law, the basis for Messiah’s obedience, that which existed before time and reveals Him and His righteousness IN time, cannot be abolished, abrogated, annulled or done away with. In fact, it cannot even be diminished!!
But why would we want to? Scripture says,

Adonai was pleased, for his righteousness’ sake,
to make the Torah great and glorious.

And,

Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established [a]as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
3 And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us [b]concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the [c]law/TORAH will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And He will judge between the nations,
And will [d]render decisions for many peoples;
And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they learn war.
5 Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.

Dear brothers and sisters, the Torah stands. It was standing before Yahweh said, ‘Light BE!’ It will be standing after Revelation 22:21!
Just something to marinate in!!
(If this has blessed or encouraged you, please consider sharing it!!)
Shalom!