And if this is true then it would stand to reason that Moses’ prohibition would also apply to nieces. Either way you have to reconcile Abraham marrying a woman who Moses would forbid to him.
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Meat Why the 'mia' mis-translation can only be settled in 'the ghetto'
- Thread starter Mark C
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Yeshua is son of David, son of man, son of God, Mary's son, and son of Joseph.
Context can add plenty.
As to the niece issue. Whether or not you think God has changed the Law, you cannot.
Context can add plenty.
As to the niece issue. Whether or not you think God has changed the Law, you cannot.
Children of God
Member
Lots of banter here and clearly you two will not agree on this topic. I'll just thank Mark C and revolting Man for a great conversation I had never thought about and maybe that's true for others here too. Definitely helps push us all into His word, which is a good thing.
Where did I try to change His Word? There’s a lot of damn projection going on around here. People who want to manufacture a Tabernacle to be in every moment of history sure are loose with their accusations of adding to scripture.
And how about some consistency? Why would Sarah be a niece but Leviticus 18:9 only be a daughter? If Sarah is a niece then it’s altogether likely Leviticus 18 applies to nieces too.
Why are you men all dodging the issues? There are questions here you won’t address but you keep acting like you have all the answers.
Your confidence is currently unsupported by your argument.
And you arrogance at being The Rule Maker is unsupported by your own inconsistency with your own Written (but constantly changing) 'Law.'
Maybe there IS a pattern there.
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OK, you win. Can't trust that YHVH, Author of Scripture, Creator, and King of the Universe to Write something you can't claim to find inconsistency in at all. We bow to your brilliance at picking
Why even bother? I guess He really didn't mean anything He Wrote about marriage, or food, or His Moedim, or Covenant, or being Worthy of our Trust, or dishonest weights, or Worship, after all.
So can the rest of us just go back to talking about what He DID Write NOW?
'Cause I personally don't give a damn.
I don't "stone my kids" either, but I've heard that one plenty, from the same mindset. And those who parrot that one (along with their other fave: "Gee, do you have TWO WIVES, too!?") don't really care how we answer.
I wanted to talk here in the Ghetto about what I thought others might find valuable as a 'razor.' You seem to want to find ways not to trust Him. Evidently, if He can "change the Law" - then you can, too:
"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
This is bizarro world. I’m the one trying to show there are no contradictions in scripture. You’re the one who is claiming some parts of scripture don’t matter because you can’t reconcile them to your ideas.
I’m going to start a new thread. I think it’s his needs a classic BibFam deep dive.
This destructive idea hasn’t been examined deeply enough at the source of the assumptions.
Great. Arguably, you could have done that before all the histrionics.
So -- a challenge: Will you actually ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN?
Some here, speaking particularly for myself, have EVERY reason to be more than suspicious.
For THIS thread, I will again note, that Deuteronomy 4:2 specifically says (Moses speaking in the first person, for the whole Book) that no man is to "add to" or "subtract from:"
“You shall not add to the Word [ha-debar] which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments [mitzvot] of YHVH Elohekah which I command you."
By way of background (this is "Common Law 101, or Physics 101 before PC, or Civics 101," etc) 'natural law' (as referenced by the Founders) are things we can discover about the way He made the universe. They are, if you will, "ingrained in the fabric of space-time." We use the scientific method, repeatable tests, to try to uncover and understand them:
Gravity (Gm1m2/r**2) - Thermodynamics - fluid dynamics - F=ma and conservation of mass-energy - etc
Even God's "Iron Law" that we "reap what we sow." Some (before it went PC) elements about human nature, and economics, and market dynamics. All the way to Maxwell's equations.
In Physics, and every "REAL Science" a "law" is defined as something that NEVER changes! Every time we test it - every time - it works. Consistently. Repeatedly.
(Otherwise, it's merely a "theory," and it must be modified. Think "theory of Relativity." "Theory of Evolution," obviously, is an outlier. It has been repeatedly proven false, but remains unchanged anyway. Perhaps a "law" of human nature at work there...
)
"Statutes, judgments, and commandments," in His Word (chuqqim, mishpatim, mitzvot) are instruction about and from His "laws" - the way He made things - and what He tells us to do as a result. They are, He says (Deuteronomy 28-30, and many others) for our blessing. So we may live, and have life (John 10:10) "more abundantly."
And here's the hard part. Some "instruction" may even be "age-appropriate." As Paul noted, there are some folks just can't handle meat...
The example I have long used is non-Scriptural, but easy nonetheless:
You tell a 3 year-old todder, "don't EVER go into the street!"
When he starts to try to learn to ride a bike, it's "look both ways."
And when he wants to learn to drive a car - there are a whole lot more instructions.
But the point was never to say "don't EVER go into the street." After all, don't mommy and daddy put me in the car and go right there? What gives?
The "Law" that the youngster doesn't have the level of understanding to comprehend has to do with Newton's Laws of Motion, conservation of kinetic energy and momentum, and what happens to a soft, compressible object when it's hit by 3000 lbs of steel-in-motion.
A question for the reader: How much did Adam, or Abraham, or Moses understand about genetics? (Hint: That may be a trick question. Perhaps more than we imagine.) But whatever they knew, the DNA of mankind, and his environment, began to change after 'the Fall,' and more after 'the Flood,.' Eventually, NOBODY lived much more than 120 years.
He didn't change His natural and well-designed 'law' about physical chemistry, bio-organic compounds, DNA, or even "seed propagating after its kind," but He did change US. As He warned.
And THAT corruption is undeniable, perhaps unquantifiable. But it's water under the bridge, too.
Doesn't surprise me that His instruction about some things would necessarily be "age-appropriate." It's just a smokescreen for the Real Issue.
Because IT'S NO EXCUSE FOR IGNORING His commandment in Deuteronomy 4:2, and again in Deuteronomy 12:31. (And, arguably, it's the "last one in the Book," too. )
“You shall not add to the Word [ha-debar] which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments [mitzvot] of YHVH Elohekah which I command you."
By way of background (this is "Common Law 101, or Physics 101 before PC, or Civics 101," etc) 'natural law' (as referenced by the Founders) are things we can discover about the way He made the universe. They are, if you will, "ingrained in the fabric of space-time." We use the scientific method, repeatable tests, to try to uncover and understand them:
Gravity (Gm1m2/r**2) - Thermodynamics - fluid dynamics - F=ma and conservation of mass-energy - etc
Even God's "Iron Law" that we "reap what we sow." Some (before it went PC) elements about human nature, and economics, and market dynamics. All the way to Maxwell's equations.
In Physics, and every "REAL Science" a "law" is defined as something that NEVER changes! Every time we test it - every time - it works. Consistently. Repeatedly.
(Otherwise, it's merely a "theory," and it must be modified. Think "theory of Relativity." "Theory of Evolution," obviously, is an outlier. It has been repeatedly proven false, but remains unchanged anyway. Perhaps a "law" of human nature at work there...
)"Statutes, judgments, and commandments," in His Word (chuqqim, mishpatim, mitzvot) are instruction about and from His "laws" - the way He made things - and what He tells us to do as a result. They are, He says (Deuteronomy 28-30, and many others) for our blessing. So we may live, and have life (John 10:10) "more abundantly."
And here's the hard part. Some "instruction" may even be "age-appropriate." As Paul noted, there are some folks just can't handle meat...
The example I have long used is non-Scriptural, but easy nonetheless:
You tell a 3 year-old todder, "don't EVER go into the street!"
When he starts to try to learn to ride a bike, it's "look both ways."
And when he wants to learn to drive a car - there are a whole lot more instructions.
But the point was never to say "don't EVER go into the street." After all, don't mommy and daddy put me in the car and go right there? What gives?
The "Law" that the youngster doesn't have the level of understanding to comprehend has to do with Newton's Laws of Motion, conservation of kinetic energy and momentum, and what happens to a soft, compressible object when it's hit by 3000 lbs of steel-in-motion.
A question for the reader: How much did Adam, or Abraham, or Moses understand about genetics? (Hint: That may be a trick question. Perhaps more than we imagine.) But whatever they knew, the DNA of mankind, and his environment, began to change after 'the Fall,' and more after 'the Flood,.' Eventually, NOBODY lived much more than 120 years.
He didn't change His natural and well-designed 'law' about physical chemistry, bio-organic compounds, DNA, or even "seed propagating after its kind," but He did change US. As He warned.
And THAT corruption is undeniable, perhaps unquantifiable. But it's water under the bridge, too.
Doesn't surprise me that His instruction about some things would necessarily be "age-appropriate." It's just a smokescreen for the Real Issue.
Because IT'S NO EXCUSE FOR IGNORING His commandment in Deuteronomy 4:2, and again in Deuteronomy 12:31. (And, arguably, it's the "last one in the Book," too.
)
You only speak for and to yourself.
I am going to go out on a limb here so please don’t crucify me. With that being said, I think we can all agree that Adam and Eve had a part in starting the human race, after all she is the mother of all living. Genesis 3:20 KJV And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
But then again you might believe in two creation accounts, Genesis 1 first stage of creation, Genesis 2 second stage of creation. But then we have the verse in Genesis 2, that says… Genesis 2:4 KJV These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Which points back to Genesis 1, meaning that was the first and only creation of man. Which means Adam had sex with just about every daughter he had. After all he was pure, he had no corrupt genes, And he lived to be... Genesis 5:5 KJV And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
I am even going to say brothers had sex with sisters, to get the population up. Then we run into Enoch, who is the oldest man who ever lived, Genesis 5:24 KJV And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
We can’t forget Methuselah, he is the oldest man that ever died.
Genesis 5:27 KJV And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Now Noah comes into the picture, a lot of stuff is going on, YaHWeH is not happy and says… Genesis 6:3 KJV And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
And the years went down from there. Noah builds the ark and all of man is wiped-out, except for 8 souls. And now we have a reset and guess where the rest of us come from? Noah, his woman, his 3 sons and their women.
Genesis 9:19 KJV These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
Everyone came from them.
Hang with me, I am going to try and prove a point.
So we have two examples of where Abram says Sarah is his sister. Genesis 12:19 KJV Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
Genesis 20:12 KJV And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
And then we have Lot and his two daughters, Genesis 19:31-38 KJV And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: (32) Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. (33) And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. (34) And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. (35) And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. (36) Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. (37) And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. (38) And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
So from the above passage v31 the daughters possibly thought everything and everyone was wiped out and they thought there is not a man and the only one around was pa and we know what happens by the text.
So everything keeps going and going and we are going to fast forward all the way past Mt. Sinai to...Leviticus 18:4-16 KJV Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God. (5) Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD. (6) None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. (7) The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. (8) The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. (9) The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. (10) The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness. (11) The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. (12) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman. (13) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman. (14) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt. (15) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. (16) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
I say all the above to say this, maybe just maybe there was no prohibition of brother and sister relations (Abraham and Sarah) but now that the population is where it needs to be YaHWeH gave us Leviticus 18:4-16. Which means NOW it is a major no no. So YaHWeH didn’t change, HE added. Because it wasn’t a problem before, YaHWeH just had to get the population up. And because we fell after creation, we were no longer the way YaHWeH created us.
But then again you might believe in two creation accounts, Genesis 1 first stage of creation, Genesis 2 second stage of creation. But then we have the verse in Genesis 2, that says… Genesis 2:4 KJV These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Which points back to Genesis 1, meaning that was the first and only creation of man. Which means Adam had sex with just about every daughter he had. After all he was pure, he had no corrupt genes, And he lived to be... Genesis 5:5 KJV And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
I am even going to say brothers had sex with sisters, to get the population up. Then we run into Enoch, who is the oldest man who ever lived, Genesis 5:24 KJV And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
We can’t forget Methuselah, he is the oldest man that ever died.
Genesis 5:27 KJV And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Now Noah comes into the picture, a lot of stuff is going on, YaHWeH is not happy and says… Genesis 6:3 KJV And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
And the years went down from there. Noah builds the ark and all of man is wiped-out, except for 8 souls. And now we have a reset and guess where the rest of us come from? Noah, his woman, his 3 sons and their women.
Genesis 9:19 KJV These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
Everyone came from them.
Hang with me, I am going to try and prove a point.
So we have two examples of where Abram says Sarah is his sister. Genesis 12:19 KJV Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
Genesis 20:12 KJV And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
And then we have Lot and his two daughters, Genesis 19:31-38 KJV And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: (32) Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. (33) And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. (34) And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. (35) And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. (36) Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. (37) And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. (38) And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
So from the above passage v31 the daughters possibly thought everything and everyone was wiped out and they thought there is not a man and the only one around was pa and we know what happens by the text.
So everything keeps going and going and we are going to fast forward all the way past Mt. Sinai to...Leviticus 18:4-16 KJV Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God. (5) Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD. (6) None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. (7) The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. (8) The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. (9) The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. (10) The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness. (11) The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. (12) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman. (13) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman. (14) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt. (15) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. (16) Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
I say all the above to say this, maybe just maybe there was no prohibition of brother and sister relations (Abraham and Sarah) but now that the population is where it needs to be YaHWeH gave us Leviticus 18:4-16. Which means NOW it is a major no no. So YaHWeH didn’t change, HE added. Because it wasn’t a problem before, YaHWeH just had to get the population up. And because we fell after creation, we were no longer the way YaHWeH created us.
I am trying to catch up, I already did my Abraham. And I believe I have an answer for the Tabernacle, however, that won't be tonight, it will have to be tomorrow. May YaHWeH's Truth come forth.
Shalom
I think you are wrong, I believe I can...
until tomorrow
@The Revolting Man
there is a passage that comes to mind when I see you two going at it...
Acts 15:39-40 KJV And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus; (40) And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
Let's try to be a good example to those who are not Believers in this forum. Shalom
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