It doesn’t work. There was no Tabernacle prior to Sinai, there were Laws that were purposefully not in effect UNTIL the children got into the land. There was no Aaronic priesthood prior to there being Aaron. Sacrifices prior to Christ were a completely different then than they are from sacrifices after Christ.I completely agree with @Mark C The Torah was complete before Creation. It has never changed and will never change.
From an article I wrote about ten years ago...
But, that wasn’t given until Sinai, right? At least that is what I used to think.
Is there evidence of at least parts of the Torah in Genesis? Yep. Let’s look at some of them to demonstrate that Abraham had much of, if not all of, the Torah commandments.
References from Genesis:
4:4 “Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions.” (How did Abel know ‘firstling’ and ‘fat portion?’)
4:14-15 “…whoever finds me will kill me.” 15 So the Lord said to him, “Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him.” (How did Cain know anyone finding him would be justified in slaying him?)
4:26 “…At that time people began to worship Yahweh.” (How did they know? And, an aside… why don’t we call on the name, Yahweh?)
6:5 & 9 “…the wickedness of man was great on the earth…Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.” (How could God justifiably declare man wicked if man had no standard? By what standard was Noah declared righteous? (Romans 4:15 and 1 John 3:4)
7:2 “You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female;..” (Where is the definition of clean and unclean? Did Noach know that intuitively or did he have the Torah definition?)
8:20 “Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.” (We have seen altars, but how did Noach know only clean animals on the altar?)
9:23 “But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were turned away, so that they did not see their father’s nakedness.” (How did they know it was sin to look on their father’s nakedness? And how was ‘righteous Noach’ justified in cursing Ham?)
13:13 “Now the men of Sodom were wicked exceedingly and sinners against the Lord.” (By what standard could they be declared sinners against Yahweh? How did they know their particular activity was sin? How was Yahweh justified in judging them if they didn’t know it was sin?)
17:1 “…’I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be blameless…'” (What does it mean to ‘walk before God? What is the definition of being ‘blameless?’ How did Avram know?)
18:19-25 “For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” … their sin is exceedingly grave… Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?…Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” (What is ‘the way of Yahweh?’ What is the definition of righteousness? How does Avraham know the difference in righteousness and wickedness? How does he know the definition of a Just Judge? And who is the Just Judge?)
Getting the picture? Avraham KNEW and OBEYED Yahweh’s Torah! His faith was demonstrated in obedience to Torah. Genesis 26:5 proves this when Yahweh says He will honor His oath to Avraham “because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”
There are more passages after this in Genesis demonstrating that Avraham’s descendants KNEW and kept Torah. Mt. Sinai was the giving of the covenant to ALL of Israel and further defining the relationship they were to have before the Father, but Torah was already in place.
Three such classic examples of detailed Torah observance in Genesis by Avraham’s descendant Judah:
38:24 “Now it was about three months later that Judah was informed, “Your daughter-in-law Tamar has played the harlot, and behold, she is also with child by harlotry.” Then Judah said, “Bring her out and let her be burned!”” (How did he know the penalty for the daughter of a priest was to be burned? …you may need to do some reading in the Book of Jashar to identify who Tamar’s father was… Find that obscure Torah law in Leviticus…. or ask in the comments section. ;o) )
38:26 “Judah recognized them, and said, “She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not have relations with her again.” (How did Judah know she had acted righteously? How did he know he was to give her to Shelah?)
39:9 “There is no one greater in this house than I, and he has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do this great evil and sin against God?” (How did Joseph know that adultery was a sin against Yahweh?)
Those who believe that the ‘faith of Abraham’ is somehow superior to that of the Children of Israel at/after Mt. Sinai, walk in delusion. Avraham’s faith was based on an objective concrete standard that is not defined for the reader until Mt. Sinai, but the clues and context of Genesis point over and over to Torah in toto.
Ya’acov (James) says, ‘Faith without works is dead.’ Avraham demonstrates that the works that justify (according to Ya’acov) is Torah.
Lest anyone misunderstand, we are saved by faith through grace to DO good works prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. I.e ‘walk as Yeshua our Messiah walked.’ (1 John 2:3-7)
The faith of Abraham should lead us to walk according to Yahweh’s standard, Torah.
ABRAHAM MARRIED HIS SISTER. ABRAHAM WAS A RIGHTEOUS MAN. MOSES SAID MEN WHO MARRIED THEIR SISTERS WERE TO BE KILLED.You fail to discern between "statutes," "judgments," and "commandments," as opposed to customs, traditions, or practices.
He NEVER told them, "thou shalt murder." But He did command them to kill.
And He never told them to IGNORE His 'moedim,' but some 'church' did.
And the fact that He destroyed the temple - for cause - did NOT mean that He doesn't STILL tell us to "remember" His Appointed Times. But we obviously can't do it the same way, much less in the same place.
Which has NOTHING to do with whether He changed His COMMANDMENT to not "add to," or "subtract from" the "the commandments of YHVH your God which I command you." The Messiah Himself did NOT.
Tell me about the Tabernacle, it didn’t exist prior to Moses, couldn’t since Aaron didn’t exist to cleanse it, then it was swapped out for a Temple. That’s a change, a massive change. It’s several changes, from no tabernacle, to Tabernacle and then back to no Tabernacle. The Tabernacle was described down to the stitching. You can’t just ignore that.Bottom line, Mark is right.
Abraham was a righteous men, but that doesn’t mean he was without sin. All men have sinned except for YAH in the flesh - who became a Holy Sacrifice for us.ABRAHAM MARRIED HIS SISTER. ABRAHAM WAS A RIGHTEOUS MAN. MOSES SAID MEN WHO MARRIED THEIR SISTERS WERE TO BE KILLED.
THE ONLY RECONCILIATION THERE IS FOR THESE FACTS IS THAT THE PROHIBITION AGAINST MARRYING SISTERS WAS NOT IN FORCE PRIOR TO SINAI.
You all keep ignoring this. If the Torah was delivered whole at Creation then Abraham is a pervert worthy of death or Moses was a liar. Discuss.
This is a sin unto death and it didn’t even get mentioned. I’m sorry but that’s a cop out.Abraham was a righteous men, but that doesn’t mean he was without sin. All men have sinned except for YAH in the flesh - who became a Holy Sacrifice for us.
Not all has been fulfilled. Otherwise, why did Paul apologize to the High Priest, because he said it’s written in the scriptures not to curse your leaders? Didn’t he get the memo? On the contrary - he said to uphold the law through faith (Romans 3:31), and to imitate him like he imitates Christ.He fulfilled them and they passed away. Why do we always quibble about every word and how it’s translated and we never parse that verse? “Till all be fulfilled” allows for individual Laws to be fulfilled individually. It doesn’t have to be an all at once fulfilling, it can’t be or the New Testament is false and we’ve heard from Odin more recently than we’ve heard from Yahweh.
Well that was a nothing burger statement. You quoted a passage about how the Law can change to justify claiming the Law can never change? Did you think through that?Not all has been fulfilled. Otherwise, why did Paul apologize to the High Priest, because he said it’s written in the scriptures not to curse your leaders? Didn’t he get the memo? On the contrary - he said to uphold the law through faith (Romans 3:31), and to imitate him like he imitates Christ.
Hebrews 10:15:17
And the Holy Spirit also testifies that this is so. For he says, 16 “This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws (torah) in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” 17 Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.”
18 And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.
Torah is righteous yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
ABRAHAM MARRIED HIS SISTER. ABRAHAM WAS A RIGHTEOUS MAN. MOSES SAID MEN WHO MARRIED THEIR SISTERS WERE TO BE KILLED.
THE ONLY RECONCILIATION THERE IS FOR THESE FACTS IS THAT THE PROHIBITION AGAINST MARRYING SISTERS WAS NOT IN FORCE PRIOR TO SINAI.
You all keep ignoring this. If the Torah was delivered whole at Creation then Abraham is a pervert worthy of death or Moses was a liar.
No - that would be a waste of time. As irrelevent as "when did you stop beating your wife".Discuss.
He commanded us not to marry our sisters but Abraham did. It seems like I know much better than you what a command is and isn’t. The prohibition against marrying your sister is a direct statement, a “thou shalt not” kind of a statement. That’s not a parable.No - that would be a waste of time. As irrelevent as "when did you stop beating your wife".
Torah is His Instruction. It is ABOUT His 'laws' - natural, and human nature. You blindly refuse to acknowledge the implications of the obvious. There are statutes, judgments, commandments, and PARABLES in His Instruction.
I'm not going to keep repeated milk-level examples for those who refuse to see. Yahuah "knew the End from the Beginning," but that didn't mean He didn't have enough understanding to Write something for us that reflected His unchanging character, and the fact that He didn't change the "Natural Laws" of the Universe. (Gravity, Thermodynamics, F=MA, and a hundred others you ignore. His Instruction tells us how to live in the world He made for us - whether you understand physics and quantum mechanics, or not. Or human nature. Or economics....)
Adam's DNA was different than ours. He lived longer, among other things. So was the 'firmament,' and the global climate. There are consequences for rebellion (surprise!) and His world is FULL of CYCLES. Get used to it.
You sound like a guy who can't understand that there are both BULL and BEAR market cycles, and want to blame YHVH for the fact that you can't see why a "LAW" doesn't work the same all the time. Hint: It's NOT a 'law'!
Instruction about parkas and ponchos in the Artic don't apply to the tropics, and only a fool would suggest that YHVH changes His "law" depending on where you happen to be.
You conflate words. Partly just because you are revolting and seek to stir up trouble. And partly because you don't want to face the central point:
If "jesus" did away with His own Torah, that one (says Paul, correctly) is a 'liar and the Truth is not in him.'
And the rest of us can use the fact that He is consistent, He changes not, and He COMMANDED US SPECIFICALLY not to "add to," nor "subtract from," His commandments to rightly divide His Word.
If that’s true then the prohibition on marrying your sister applies to your nieces too since they’re also the daughters of your father under that interpretation.Abraham also refers to Lot as his brother. Terms like brother, sister, son, and daughter are used loosely throughout the Bible. Yeshua was a son of David. Sarai was a daughter of Terah but not of Abraham's mother. It's very possible she was a granddaughter of Terah and a niece of Abraham (just as Lot is a nephew and yet referred to as a brother).
Makes more sense to me. Especially due to the numerous instances of the Law being kept before Sinai (of which Pete so eloquently presented a collection).
Even if he did - which man was perfect? We’ve seen other examples in scripture of righteous men receiving forgiveness for breaking a “death penalty sin.” One example is David.If that’s true then the prohibition on marrying your sister applies to your nieces too since they’re also the daughters of your father under that interpretation.
Please don’t waste my time. If you’re not going to be serious then don’t participate.
FINALLY. Truth.Please don’t waste my time. If you’re not going to be serious then don’t participate.
Check Leviticus 18:11, the verse specifies "born to your father". The added context even implies that without it there could be a misunderstanding. 18:9 is less clear, but context is still added in the reference to where the sister was born (and whether she is your father's daughter or your mother's).If that’s true then the prohibition on marrying your sister applies to your nieces too since they’re also the daughters of your father under that interpretation.
Please don’t waste my time. If you’re not going to be serious then don’t participate.
That’s a lot of conjecture. It’s a shame God isn’t a better communicator than that. It’s almost like He’s trying to confuse you….I sure wish He would communicate His Word clearly and succinctly.Check Leviticus 18:11, the verse specifies "born to your father". The added context even implies that without it there could be a misunderstanding. 18:9 is less clear, but context is still added in the reference to where the sister was born (and whether she is your father's daughter or your mother's).
Genesis 11:31 introduces Sarai as Terah/Terach's daughter-in-law, not daughter.
It seems strange that in the description of Sarai’s relationship to Terach, her being his daughter is not mentioned.
I see three potential ways to make sense of this:
Seeing as Abraham has just been caught in a lie I find it perfectly plausible that he is lying once again to try and safe face ("I didn't really lie" and then using some wordplay).
- Abraham is lying (again) about Sarah being his half-sister.
- The text contradicts itself.
- Abraham is telling the truth and the text is selective (oddly so) in what is mentioned.
Either way, you can't deny that brother, sister, son, and daughter are all used in the Bible with multiple meanings during the narrative passages.
Are you implying scripture does not permit this? As far as I'm aware there is no ban on uncles and nieces. Merely on nephews and aunts.Your ultimate claim being that you can sleep with your niece? Is that your argument?
I am of the opinion that nieces are most likely forbidden.Are you implying scripture does not permit this? As far as I'm aware there is no ban on uncles and nieces. Merely on nephews and aunts.