Meat Why the 'mia' mis-translation can only be settled in 'the ghetto'

[PeteR]

Bottom line, Mark is right.

 

[Earth_is-]

Isaiah 8:20
To the law (torah) and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus.

Isaiah 51:7
“Listen to me, you who know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law (torah)

1 Cor 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived

Isaiah 60:21
1 Your people shall all be righteous; they shall possess the land forever, the branch (natsar) of my planting, the work of my hands, that I might be glorified.

Acts 24:5
“We have found this man (Paul) to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.

The followers of the way were indeed hated by everyone. Hated by the Jews. Hated by the gentile world. To the torah and to the testimony of Yahushua.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I completely agree with @Mark C The Torah was complete before Creation. It has never changed and will never change.

From an article I wrote about ten years ago...

But, that wasn’t given until Sinai, right? At least that is what I used to think.

Is there evidence of at least parts of the Torah in Genesis? Yep. Let’s look at some of them to demonstrate that Abraham had much of, if not all of, the Torah commandments.

References from Genesis:

4:4 “Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions.” (How did Abel know ‘firstling’ and ‘fat portion?’)

4:14-15 “…whoever finds me will kill me.” 15 So the Lord said to him, “Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him.” (How did Cain know anyone finding him would be justified in slaying him?)

4:26 “…At that time people began to worship Yahweh.” (How did they know? And, an aside… why don’t we call on the name, Yahweh?)

6:5 & 9 “…the wickedness of man was great on the earth…Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.” (How could God justifiably declare man wicked if man had no standard? By what standard was Noah declared righteous? (Romans 4:15 and 1 John 3:4)

7:2 “You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female;..” (Where is the definition of clean and unclean? Did Noach know that intuitively or did he have the Torah definition?)

8:20 “Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.” (We have seen altars, but how did Noach know only clean animals on the altar?)

9:23 “But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were turned away, so that they did not see their father’s nakedness.” (How did they know it was sin to look on their father’s nakedness? And how was ‘righteous Noach’ justified in cursing Ham?)

13:13 “Now the men of Sodom were wicked exceedingly and sinners against the Lord.” (By what standard could they be declared sinners against Yahweh? How did they know their particular activity was sin? How was Yahweh justified in judging them if they didn’t know it was sin?)

17:1 “…’I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be blameless…'” (What does it mean to ‘walk before God? What is the definition of being ‘blameless?’ How did Avram know?)

18:19-25 “For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” … their sin is exceedingly grave… Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?…Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” (What is ‘the way of Yahweh?’ What is the definition of righteousness? How does Avraham know the difference in righteousness and wickedness? How does he know the definition of a Just Judge? And who is the Just Judge?)

Getting the picture? Avraham KNEW and OBEYED Yahweh’s Torah! His faith was demonstrated in obedience to Torah. Genesis 26:5 proves this when Yahweh says He will honor His oath to Avraham “because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

There are more passages after this in Genesis demonstrating that Avraham’s descendants KNEW and kept Torah. Mt. Sinai was the giving of the covenant to ALL of Israel and further defining the relationship they were to have before the Father, but Torah was already in place.

Three such classic examples of detailed Torah observance in Genesis by Avraham’s descendant Judah:

38:24 “Now it was about three months later that Judah was informed, “Your daughter-in-law Tamar has played the harlot, and behold, she is also with child by harlotry.” Then Judah said, “Bring her out and let her be burned!”” (How did he know the penalty for the daughter of a priest was to be burned? …you may need to do some reading in the Book of Jashar to identify who Tamar’s father was… Find that obscure Torah law in Leviticus…. or ask in the comments section. ;o) )

38:26 “Judah recognized them, and said, “She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not have relations with her again.” (How did Judah know she had acted righteously? How did he know he was to give her to Shelah?)

39:9 “There is no one greater in this house than I, and he has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do this great evil and sin against God?” (How did Joseph know that adultery was a sin against Yahweh?)

Those who believe that the ‘faith of Abraham’ is somehow superior to that of the Children of Israel at/after Mt. Sinai, walk in delusion. Avraham’s faith was based on an objective concrete standard that is not defined for the reader until Mt. Sinai, but the clues and context of Genesis point over and over to Torah in toto.

Ya’acov (James) says, ‘Faith without works is dead.’ Avraham demonstrates that the works that justify (according to Ya’acov) is Torah.

Lest anyone misunderstand, we are saved by faith through grace to DO good works prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. I.e ‘walk as Yeshua our Messiah walked.’ (1 John 2:3-7)

The faith of Abraham should lead us to walk according to Yahweh’s standard, Torah.

It doesn’t work. There was no Tabernacle prior to Sinai, there were Laws that were purposefully not in effect UNTIL the children got into the land. There was no Aaronic priesthood prior to there being Aaron. Sacrifices prior to Christ were a completely different then than they are from sacrifices after Christ.

There is no way for all people to be descended from Adam and Eve and for there not have been people marrying their siblings, something we see with Abraham that gets banned with Moses.

Of course God always knew from the beginning the totality of what would get revealed but that doesn’t mean it was always revealed in it’s entirety or that people who hadn’t had the entirety of it revealed to them were responsible for it.

You just can’t make the claim. We’re told exactly why God sent the Flood and it wasn’t that the people weren’t cleansing themselves before they went to the Tabernacle. We have specific examples of moral precepts existing in certain periods and not others. We can’t ignore that.

 

[The Revolting Man]

You fail to discern between "statutes," "judgments," and "commandments," as opposed to customs, traditions, or practices.

He NEVER told them, "thou shalt murder." But He did command them to kill.

And He never told them to IGNORE His 'moedim,' but some 'church' did.

And the fact that He destroyed the temple - for cause - did NOT mean that He doesn't STILL tell us to "remember" His Appointed Times. But we obviously can't do it the same way, much less in the same place.

Which has NOTHING to do with whether He changed His COMMANDMENT to not "add to," or "subtract from" the "the commandments of YHVH your God which I command you." The Messiah Himself did NOT.

ABRAHAM MARRIED HIS SISTER. ABRAHAM WAS A RIGHTEOUS MAN. MOSES SAID MEN WHO MARRIED THEIR SISTERS WERE TO BE KILLED.

THE ONLY RECONCILIATION THERE IS FOR THESE FACTS IS THAT THE PROHIBITION AGAINST MARRYING SISTERS WAS NOT IN FORCE PRIOR TO SINAI.

You all keep ignoring this. If the Torah was delivered whole at Creation then Abraham is a pervert worthy of death or Moses was a liar. Discuss.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Bottom line, Mark is right.

Tell me about the Tabernacle, it didn’t exist prior to Moses, couldn’t since Aaron didn’t exist to cleanse it, then it was swapped out for a Temple. That’s a change, a massive change. It’s several changes, from no tabernacle, to Tabernacle and then back to no Tabernacle. The Tabernacle was described down to the stitching. You can’t just ignore that.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Men, we have a problem in the Torah community. We have desperately grasped at false justifications for our beliefs. This makes us vulnerable to several errors that all seem to end with denying Christ at a much higher rate than other believers.

I understand why we cling to this claim that the Law is unchangeable. We are a small minority of believers and we get a lot of unfair criticism from the Hellenized Christians. But we can’t cling to falsehood. Clearly the moral laws can change.

We now have a perfect, one time sacrifice for sins. Moses didn’t have that.

There are few of you who keep the Torah more strictly than me. I would venture to say none of you do. I love it and it has born incredible fruit in my life. Because of that I will not read ONE SINGLE assumption into it. It has to stand exactly as it was given to us.

The way you’re interpreting it doesn’t stand. It conflicts with the facts. Laws that applied after Moses didn’t apply before Moses. Christ changed the Laws around the Tabernacle, sacrifices and priesthood.

He fulfilled them and they passed away. Why do we always quibble about every word and how it’s translated and we never parse that verse? “Till all be fulfilled” allows for individual Laws to be fulfilled individually. It doesn’t have to be an all at once fulfilling, it can’t be or the New Testament is false and we’ve heard from Odin more recently than we’ve heard from Yahweh.

 

[Earth_is-]

ABRAHAM MARRIED HIS SISTER. ABRAHAM WAS A RIGHTEOUS MAN. MOSES SAID MEN WHO MARRIED THEIR SISTERS WERE TO BE KILLED.

THE ONLY RECONCILIATION THERE IS FOR THESE FACTS IS THAT THE PROHIBITION AGAINST MARRYING SISTERS WAS NOT IN FORCE PRIOR TO SINAI.

You all keep ignoring this. If the Torah was delivered whole at Creation then Abraham is a pervert worthy of death or Moses was a liar. Discuss.

Abraham was a righteous men, but that doesn’t mean he was without sin. All men have sinned except for YAH in the flesh - who became a Holy Sacrifice for us.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Abraham was a righteous men, but that doesn’t mean he was without sin. All men have sinned except for YAH in the flesh - who became a Holy Sacrifice for us.

This is a sin unto death and it didn’t even get mentioned. I’m sorry but that’s a cop out.

 

[Earth_is-]

He fulfilled them and they passed away. Why do we always quibble about every word and how it’s translated and we never parse that verse? “Till all be fulfilled” allows for individual Laws to be fulfilled individually. It doesn’t have to be an all at once fulfilling, it can’t be or the New Testament is false and we’ve heard from Odin more recently than we’ve heard from Yahweh.

Not all has been fulfilled. Otherwise, why did Paul apologize to the High Priest, because he said it’s written in the scriptures not to curse your leaders? Didn’t he get the memo? On the contrary - he said to uphold the law through faith (Romans 3:31), and to imitate him like he imitates Christ.


Hebrews 10:15:17

And the Holy Spirit also testifies that this is so. For he says, 16 “This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws (torah) in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” 17 Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.”
18 And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.

Torah is righteous yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Not all has been fulfilled. Otherwise, why did Paul apologize to the High Priest, because he said it’s written in the scriptures not to curse your leaders? Didn’t he get the memo? On the contrary - he said to uphold the law through faith (Romans 3:31), and to imitate him like he imitates Christ.


Hebrews 10:15:17

And the Holy Spirit also testifies that this is so. For he says, 16 “This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws (torah) in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” 17 Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.”
18 And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.

Torah is righteous yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Well that was a nothing burger statement. You quoted a passage about how the Law can change to justify claiming the Law can never change? Did you think through that?

 

[Mark C]

ABRAHAM MARRIED HIS SISTER. ABRAHAM WAS A RIGHTEOUS MAN. MOSES SAID MEN WHO MARRIED THEIR SISTERS WERE TO BE KILLED.

THE ONLY RECONCILIATION THERE IS FOR THESE FACTS IS THAT THE PROHIBITION AGAINST MARRYING SISTERS WAS NOT IN FORCE PRIOR TO SINAI.

You all keep ignoring this. If the Torah was delivered whole at Creation then Abraham is a pervert worthy of death or Moses was a liar.

Discuss.

No - that would be a waste of time. As irrelevent as "when did you stop beating your wife".


Torah is His Instruction. It is ABOUT His 'laws' - natural, and human nature. You blindly refuse to acknowledge the implications of the obvious. There are statutes, judgments, commandments, and PARABLES in His Instruction.

I'm not going to keep repeated milk-level examples for those who refuse to see. Yahuah "knew the End from the Beginning," but that didn't mean He didn't have enough understanding to Write something for us that reflected His unchanging character, and the fact that He didn't change the "Natural Laws" of the Universe. (Gravity, Thermodynamics, F=MA, and a hundred others you ignore. His Instruction tells us how to live in the world He made for us - whether you understand physics and quantum mechanics, or not. Or human nature. Or economics....)

Adam's DNA was different than ours. He lived longer, among other things. So was the 'firmament,' and the global climate. There are consequences for rebellion (surprise!) and His world is FULL of CYCLES. Get used to it.

You sound like a guy who can't understand that there are both BULL and BEAR market cycles, and want to blame YHVH for the fact that you can't see why a "LAW" doesn't work the same all the time. Hint: It's NOT a 'law'!

Instruction about parkas and ponchos in the Artic don't apply to the tropics, and only a fool would suggest that YHVH changes His "law" depending on where you happen to be.

You conflate words. Partly just because you are revolting and seek to stir up trouble. And partly because you don't want to face the central point:

If "jesus" did away with His own Torah, that one (says Paul, correctly) is a 'liar and the Truth is not in him.'

And the rest of us can use the fact that He is consistent, He changes not, and He COMMANDED US SPECIFICALLY not to "add to," nor "subtract from," His commandments to rightly divide His Word.

 

[The Revolting Man]

No - that would be a waste of time. As irrelevent as "when did you stop beating your wife".


Torah is His Instruction. It is ABOUT His 'laws' - natural, and human nature. You blindly refuse to acknowledge the implications of the obvious. There are statutes, judgments, commandments, and PARABLES in His Instruction.

I'm not going to keep repeated milk-level examples for those who refuse to see. Yahuah "knew the End from the Beginning," but that didn't mean He didn't have enough understanding to Write something for us that reflected His unchanging character, and the fact that He didn't change the "Natural Laws" of the Universe. (Gravity, Thermodynamics, F=MA, and a hundred others you ignore. His Instruction tells us how to live in the world He made for us - whether you understand physics and quantum mechanics, or not. Or human nature. Or economics....)

Adam's DNA was different than ours. He lived longer, among other things. So was the 'firmament,' and the global climate. There are consequences for rebellion (surprise!) and His world is FULL of CYCLES. Get used to it.

You sound like a guy who can't understand that there are both BULL and BEAR market cycles, and want to blame YHVH for the fact that you can't see why a "LAW" doesn't work the same all the time. Hint: It's NOT a 'law'!

Instruction about parkas and ponchos in the Artic don't apply to the tropics, and only a fool would suggest that YHVH changes His "law" depending on where you happen to be.

You conflate words. Partly just because you are revolting and seek to stir up trouble. And partly because you don't want to face the central point:

If "jesus" did away with His own Torah, that one (says Paul, correctly) is a 'liar and the Truth is not in him.'

And the rest of us can use the fact that He is consistent, He changes not, and He COMMANDED US SPECIFICALLY not to "add to," nor "subtract from," His commandments to rightly divide His Word.

He commanded us not to marry our sisters but Abraham did. It seems like I know much better than you what a command is and isn’t. The prohibition against marrying your sister is a direct statement, a “thou shalt not” kind of a statement. That’s not a parable.

If you don’t have an answer just say so. Don’t lie about the Law. We are directly forbidden from marrying our sisters.

We were expressly commanded to build and maintain a Tabernacle down to the stitchings.

Those are explicit commands that were changes when they were instituted and in the case of the Tabernacle, changes when they were supplanted.

These are not parables or teachings or illustrations. These were edicts issued at Sinai. If you refuse to acknowledge that then nothing else you have to say has any value.

How many more apostasies are we going to tolerate before we’re humble enough to try and figure out why this keeps happening under our very noses?

The first sin was when Eve misrepresented God’s commands. We do the exact same thing when we make blanket statements completely unsupportable from scripture.

The inestimable @steve pointed out one time that every road has two ditches. The Torah community is gleefully digging a third with our reliance on obvious untruths to justify our beliefs.

We would be better off as Methodists than as a people obsessed with weird Apocryphal writings and lost tribe fantasies while we brush off and ignore the serious matters of scripture.

God will not be mocked and our insistence that we can put rules and limits on Him is worse than mockery, it’s contempt. He doesn’t change but don’t you pretend for a second that He isn’t so complex and multi-faceted that you could ever put limits on His actions.

 

[Michael Moon]

Abraham also refers to Lot as his brother. Terms like brother, sister, son, and daughter are used loosely throughout the Bible. Yeshua was a son of David. Sarai was a daughter of Terah but not of Abraham's mother. It's very possible she was a granddaughter of Terah and a niece of Abraham (just as Lot is a nephew and yet referred to as a brother).

Makes more sense to me. Especially due to the numerous instances of the Law being kept before Sinai (of which Pete so eloquently presented a collection).

 

[The Revolting Man]

Abraham also refers to Lot as his brother. Terms like brother, sister, son, and daughter are used loosely throughout the Bible. Yeshua was a son of David. Sarai was a daughter of Terah but not of Abraham's mother. It's very possible she was a granddaughter of Terah and a niece of Abraham (just as Lot is a nephew and yet referred to as a brother).

Makes more sense to me. Especially due to the numerous instances of the Law being kept before Sinai (of which Pete so eloquently presented a collection).

If that’s true then the prohibition on marrying your sister applies to your nieces too since they’re also the daughters of your father under that interpretation.

Please don’t waste my time. If you’re not going to be serious then don’t participate.

 

[Earth_is-]

If that’s true then the prohibition on marrying your sister applies to your nieces too since they’re also the daughters of your father under that interpretation.

Please don’t waste my time. If you’re not going to be serious then don’t participate.

Even if he did - which man was perfect? We’ve seen other examples in scripture of righteous men receiving forgiveness for breaking a “death penalty sin.” One example is David.

Another possibility - perhaps Abram did not receive that particular instruction, therefore, he broke it in ignorance. Esau married pagan women that got him in trouble, and stressed his parents out. That’s why Rebecca made sure Jacob would find a suitable wife. That tells me there likely weren’t many good suitors out there. However, when they greatly multiplied in Egypt - finding a suitable wife wasn’t a problem anymore, and scripture points to most men having multiple wives (book of numbers).

Also as Pete demonstrated - there’s several passages where righteous servants of YAH kept aspects of torah long before Moses.

One example is the law of levirate with the sons of Judah. That was before even Egypt.

 

[Mark C]

Please don’t waste my time. If you’re not going to be serious then don’t participate.

FINALLY. Truth.

 

[Michael Moon]

If that’s true then the prohibition on marrying your sister applies to your nieces too since they’re also the daughters of your father under that interpretation.

Please don’t waste my time. If you’re not going to be serious then don’t participate.

Check Leviticus 18:11, the verse specifies "born to your father". The added context even implies that without it there could be a misunderstanding. 18:9 is less clear, but context is still added in the reference to where the sister was born (and whether she is your father's daughter or your mother's).

Genesis 11:31 introduces Sarai as Terah/Terach's daughter-in-law, not daughter.

It seems strange that in the description of Sarai’s relationship to Terach, her being his daughter is not mentioned.

I see three potential ways to make sense of this:

1. Abraham is lying (again) about Sarah being his half-sister.
2. The text contradicts itself.
3. Abraham is telling the truth and the text is selective (oddly so) in what is mentioned.

Seeing as Abraham has just been caught in a lie I find it perfectly plausible that he is lying once again to try and safe face ("I didn't really lie" and then using some wordplay).

Either way, you can't deny that brother, sister, son, and daughter are all used in the Bible with multiple meanings during the narrative passages.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Check Leviticus 18:11, the verse specifies "born to your father". The added context even implies that without it there could be a misunderstanding. 18:9 is less clear, but context is still added in the reference to where the sister was born (and whether she is your father's daughter or your mother's).

Genesis 11:31 introduces Sarai as Terah/Terach's daughter-in-law, not daughter.

It seems strange that in the description of Sarai’s relationship to Terach, her being his daughter is not mentioned.

I see three potential ways to make sense of this:

1. Abraham is lying (again) about Sarah being his half-sister.
2. The text contradicts itself.
3. Abraham is telling the truth and the text is selective (oddly so) in what is mentioned.

Seeing as Abraham has just been caught in a lie I find it perfectly plausible that he is lying once again to try and safe face ("I didn't really lie" and then using some wordplay).

Either way, you can't deny that brother, sister, son, and daughter are all used in the Bible with multiple meanings during the narrative passages.

That’s a lot of conjecture. It’s a shame God isn’t a better communicator than that. It’s almost like He’s trying to confuse you….I sure wish He would communicate His Word clearly and succinctly.

But just to be clear, a niece can be a daughter of your father when you want to be able to sleep with her (Sarah) but a niece isn’t the father of your daughter when you want to sleep with her (Sinai).

Your ultimate claim being that you can sleep with your niece? Is that your argument?

 

[Michael Moon]

Your ultimate claim being that you can sleep with your niece? Is that your argument?

Are you implying scripture does not permit this? As far as I'm aware there is no ban on uncles and nieces. Merely on nephews and aunts.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Are you implying scripture does not permit this? As far as I'm aware there is no ban on uncles and nieces. Merely on nephews and aunts.

I am of the opinion that nieces are most likely forbidden.