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Women bosses and working with women

C

Cap

Guest
The relationship of men to women in a family is well discussed here but I was wondering what would be said about the relationship of men to women in the work place, including feminist minded men as bosses. Is men having women bosses/managers biblical? What about men and women working together in the corporate world? Should a Godly woman hold a position of authority over men?

What would be the spiritual implications?

How does Deborah, one of Israel's judges fit into that category? How would one understand their position toward Queen Ester? What if your boss is a woman? Should men accept that position?
 
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I think the male headship role is primarily familial and spiritual.

Over the years I've had several female bosses, some really good, some not. A few I really chafed under because they were about control while others affirmed our differences and respected my manhood.

I think of the Proverbs 31 woman who governs her house and businesses well. Are we to believe there were only female servants in the house? How about the command to servants to obey masters? There is no caveat if your master is female...

Just a few thoughts. Bottom-line:If God calls you to a particular job that has a female boss, be a Godly man who walks in meekness (power under control).
 
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I think the male headship role is primarily familial and spiritual.

Over the years I've had several female bosses, some really goid, some not. A fee I really charged under because they were about control and others who affirmed our differences and respected my manhood.

I think of the Proverbs 31 woman who governs her house and businesses well. Are we to believe there were only female servants in the house? How about the command to servants to obey masters? There is no caveat if your master is female...

Just a few thoughts. Bottom-libe:If God calls you to a particular job that has a female boss, be a Godly man who walks in meekness (power under control).

Interesting thoughts. I guess it would depend on her ability to understand the responsiblity of a man under God's authority first, yes?
 
I can respect a man who will never accept working under the authority of a woman the same way I can respect a man who eats only vegetables because he thinks it's a sin to eat meat.

I think he is limiting himself unnecessarily, but I'm sure God sees what he's going for and will bless the crops he raises off grid.

Personally, I see the mantle of authority being what is to be respected. When I honor the king, I do not honor him for his genitals , nor do I give honor based on whether or not I agree with his policies. He is the king, he wears the crown, he is to be honored. If the king is dead these thirty years and the law respects the queen as the authority, then so do I. The authorities are God's servants and do not bear the sword in vain. I've been pulled over by a female officer before, and it is my belief that it would be contrary to scripture for me to have given her a pitying look for wearing the uniform of her betters and putting my car in drive without acknowledging her badge and her gun. It would also have been abysmal from a 'not going to jail for a stupid reason' standpoint.

Likewise I do not balk at working under a female supervisor. Even if she's a complete feminist, nevertheless in the company that employs me her rank exceeds mine. I respect the company policy that tells me a supervisor is above a worker and I respect the paycheck that was the whole point of me even being there.

As far as government is concerned, we know that all authority comes from God, and those that resist bring judgment upon themselves. The man who is stung by that... probably should be stung.

The man arrested by a female officer and who must stand before a female judge, and decides to act out in some way in protest of this, deserves the extra hardships he has called down upon himself because he has disrespected the authority that the very male God has bestowed upon those females. Same with slaves and masters.

It's true that Paul does not allow a woman to have authority over a man, nor to teach him. I think that has to be understood as only in and among the Church. We cannot expect the world to conform to our sensibilities as a prerequisite of our own employment. Or else we would likewise have to refrain from working for men who will threaten us or will not treat us as brothers.

And if you cannot work for a woman and you cannot work for a glass-bowl, then you must be an entrepreneur!

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact I have respect to the pitch of awe for those who live like that.

But I think it is equally valid to go to work for a female and be apologetically masculine, while still retaining the proper humility of his position.

My private suspicion is that salt is properly experienced when mixed in with not-salt. The fact that somewhere out there a man might be free and and masculine might fill a worldly woman with contempt. But a man under authority who works with all his might, is known to be a chauvinist of some flavor, yet is respectable, respectful, and out-performs the feminine men around him... well, who's to say that won't give her cause to re-evaluate her ideas? At the very least, I know that female co-workers who aren't pathologically feminist will be encouraged to be more submissive to their own husbands by exposure to such a one.

There's a balance to be struck between being separate, and being useful.
 
My mind always goes back the the Ethiopian eunuch who was a very important man and yet under authority of his queen. This man goes on to bring the gospel to the Ethiopian people and found the Ethiopian church that by and large is still in existence today.

I understand what you are saying and agree but a side question would be aren't there special or complicated issues as far as temple service when it comes to eunuchs?
 
When I was interviewed for my last job, I was asked how I would feel about having a female boss. My response was "I'm being hired to do a job, not quibble about the gender of my boss". As long as we are servants, we serve for a paycheck, we don't get to choose our boss.

It is good to seek our freedom, and the life of an entrepreneur is better from a male headship perspective - but not necessarily better from a financial perspective...

But while being a servant, just focus on serving.
 
I understand what you are saying and agree but a side question would be aren't there special or complicated issues as far as temple service when it comes to eunuchs?
Yes, but to my knowledge he wasn't attempting to serve in the temple. He just spread the gospel and God did the rest. To my knowledge, I don't think its an issue today and I'm not sure it was really an issue for him in Ethiopia. Im not that familiar with the in depth history behind him.
 
I have had no personal problem working for women, I just prefer working under men.

It's not a spiritual or chauvinist thing, though. Women just tend to be more micromanaging and less "big picture" oriented. It's a generalization, I know, but I think others might agree.
 
If you don't mind, I'll share a few thoughts. There was a time when it was thought sinful for a woman to be a teacher because she would be teaching young men. The same thing happened in the medical and science fields. Men saw it as a threat for women to enter those vocations. Slowly but surely women persisted who felt called to those areas of service and most of them gladly maintained their femininity around the men folk and displayed a measure of respect toward their male peers, fully aware that any misconduct or attitude would completely undermine their ultimate goal--be given the chance to participate. They were thankful to just be there and worked hard to prove they had value and something to bring to the table. (This same parallel can be seen among the races as black parents and students worked to have the privilege to attend schools, colleges, upper level jobs, etc.) As the flow of females increased in the work force by necessity tenure moved them toward the top--especially once WWI and WWII happened. There were big problems when the men came home from war and insisted the women step down to a lower level so the men could have the upper tier of work. Others thought the women should return home and had no business remaining in the work force--regardless of her experience, value in a company's cycle of growth, etc. Over the decades women have come to hold positions of responsibility and authority that were considered unthinkable when I was a young girl. It's been amazing to watch.

What irks me to no end--I despise it--is to see a woman in a position of responsibility and/or authority that flaunts her gender, expects her gender to take her places that her skill set or lack of competence won't, or talks down to or debases a man just because her position is above his. Come to think of it, this sort of conduct is despicable in both men and women.

I've often pondered the story of Deborah and Barak. There's a reason she rose in favor in the eyes of all Israel. She actually became a judge of Israel. Judges 4:8 "And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go." Judges 4:4 calls her a prophetess.

Then there's Huldah, the prophetess in II Kings 22:14 "So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her." See also II Chronicles 34:22

Miriam, Aaron's sister, is called a prophetess in Exodus 15:20

Luke 2:36 mentions Anna as a prophetess.

Jezebell called herself a prophetess (Rev. 2:20) and Noadiah was apparently on the wrong side of the fence also in Neh. 6:14 as far as being in a position of responsiblity and authority but abusing it. So in Scripture you see it happening both ways--women being highly respected and sought unto by the men, and those who utterly shamed the female role.

I really think the issue is maturity for both men and women who are able to value and respect each other when their roles seem to be reversed. Please do not misunderstand, those men and/or women who absolutely do not feel they can position themselves under the opposite gender in a work related setting or in close proximity do not in any way indicate a lack of maturity by default. Quite the contrary--it takes a lot of hardwork, determination, sweat, blood, and tears to go the entrepreneurial route.

I didn't set out to be the administrator of a small Christian school. The Lord GOD literally drew me to the dyslexia ministry, dropped His answer for it in my lap, and then led me to found the organization. He called me to start the ministry for high school dropouts in 2001. That positions me as teacher for young adult men and women every time class meets. Now I can look back and see how purposefully He was preparing me all along the way from my point of salvation between 4th and 5th grade to be ready to follow Him in each of these endeavors, but I wasn't looking for any of them. All 3 have cast me into "a man's world". I could have gone anywhere and named my price as a secretary because of my skill set, experience, and expertise coming out of college. I chose not to because I didn't want to have to deal with the drama, stress, and temptations I'd heard come with the job of working that closely with a man who was not my husband. Going straight into the educational field allowed me to focus on children, though early on I was teaching high school teen young men. In spite of the fact that I had an inherent fear of men steming from my 18 years of growing up, by God's grace I was able to hold my own in the classroom, learn that validating the young men's masculinity and talking straight to them no differently than I did the girls allowed me to earn their respect, not demand it because I was their teacher. Then God gave me 4 boys, and I learned even more of how to relate. I wanted my boys to be healthy, Godly men. Today, all those years of training and readjusting to the male gender are what allows me to sit across the table from many teen young men, college age males, and adult men seeking help for dyslexia without fearing them, but able to look them in the eye, speak truth to them, challenge them, and provide the help they are seeking. For sure I pray every time I meet with a new client--male or female. I think I pray extra when meeting with the males because it's so easy to feel inferior to that gender. I want Christ to be seen in me so that I can do what's He's called me to do. Feelings of inferiority or superiority would totally sabatoge the entire appointment with males.

Because I'm glad to be a women and don't try to cloak my femininity in psuedo masculinity, I've found that in the professional world, though some men may challenge me, knowing who I am and whose I am provides the strength to stand tall with meekness and humility of spirit. I can let the Lord take care of the rest. If a man has a problem with me as a woman at a professional level, it will have to be his problem; I do my best not to make it mine.
 
If you don't mind, I'll share a few thoughts. There was a time when it was thought sinful for a woman to be a teacher because she would be teaching young men. The same thing happened in the medical and science fields. Men saw it as a threat for women to enter those vocations. Slowly but surely women persisted who felt called to those areas of service and most of them gladly maintained their femininity around the men folk and displayed a measure of respect toward their male peers, fully aware that any misconduct or attitude would completely undermine their ultimate goal--be given the chance to participate. They were thankful to just be there and worked hard to prove they had value and something to bring to the table. (This same parallel can be seen among the races as black parents and students worked to have the privilege to attend schools, colleges, upper level jobs, etc.) As the flow of females increased in the work force by necessity tenure moved them toward the top--especially once WWI and WWII happened. There were big problems when the men came home from war and insisted the women step down to a lower level so the men could have the upper tier of work. Others thought the women should return home and had no business remaining in the work force--regardless of her experience, value in a company's cycle of growth, etc. Over the decades women have come to hold positions of responsibility and authority that were considered unthinkable when I was a young girl. It's been amazing to watch.

What irks me to no end--I despise it--is to see a woman in a position of responsibility and/or authority that flaunts her gender, expects her gender to take her places that her skill set or lack of competence won't, or talks down to or debases a man just because her position is above his. Come to think of it, this sort of conduct is despicable in both men and women.

I've often pondered the story of Deborah and Barak. There's a reason she rose in favor in the eyes of all Israel. She actually became a judge of Israel. Judges 4:8 "And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go." Judges 4:4 calls her a prophetess.

Then there's Huldah, the prophetess in II Kings 22:14 "So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her." See also II Chronicles 34:22

Miriam, Aaron's sister, is called a prophetess in Exodus 15:20

Luke 2:36 mentions Anna as a prophetess.

Jezebell called herself a prophetess (Rev. 2:20) and Noadiah was apparently on the wrong side of the fence also in Neh. 6:14 as far as being in a position of responsiblity and authority but abusing it. So in Scripture you see it happening both ways--women being highly respected and sought unto by the men, and those who utterly shamed the female role.

I really think the issue is maturity for both men and women who are able to value and respect each other when their roles seem to be reversed. Please do not misunderstand, those men and/or women who absolutely do not feel they can position themselves under the opposite gender in a work related setting or in close proximity do not in any way indicate a lack of maturity by default. Quite the contrary--it takes a lot of hardwork, determination, sweat, blood, and tears to go the entrepreneurial route.

I didn't set out to be the administrator of a small Christian school. The Lord GOD literally drew me to the dyslexia ministry, dropped His answer for it in my lap, and then led me to found the organization. He called me to start the ministry for high school dropouts in 2001. That positions me as teacher for young adult men and women every time class meets. Now I can look back and see how purposefully He was preparing me all along the way from my point of salvation between 4th and 5th grade to be ready to follow Him in each of these endeavors, but I wasn't looking for any of them. All 3 have cast me into "a man's world". I could have gone anywhere and named my price as a secretary because of my skill set, experience, and expertise coming out of college. I chose not to because I didn't want to have to deal with the drama, stress, and temptations I'd heard come with the job of working that closely with a man who was not my husband. Going straight into the educational field allowed me to focus on children, though early on I was teaching high school teen young men. In spite of the fact that I had an inherent fear of men steming from my 18 years of growing up, by God's grace I was able to hold my own in the classroom, learn that validating the young men's masculinity and talking straight to them no differently than I did the girls allowed me to earn their respect, not demand it because I was their teacher. Then God gave me 4 boys, and I learned even more of how to relate. I wanted my boys to be healthy, Godly men. Today, all those years of training and readjusting to the male gender are what allows me to sit across the table from many teen young men, college age males, and adult men seeking help for dyslexia without fearing them, but able to look them in the eye, speak truth to them, challenge them, and provide the help they are seeking. For sure I pray every time I meet with a new client--male or female. I think I pray extra when meeting with the males because it's so easy to feel inferior to that gender. I want Christ to be seen in me so that I can do what's He's called me to do. Feelings of inferiority or superiority would totally sabatoge the entire appointment with males.

Because I'm glad to be a women and don't try to cloak my femininity in psuedo masculinity, I've found that in the professional world, though some men may challenge me, knowing who I am and whose I am provides the strength to stand tall with meekness and humility of spirit. I can let the Lord take care of the rest. If a man has a problem with me as a woman at a professional level, it will have to be his problem; I do my best not to make it mine.

Well said, if God placed me in a subordinate work environment under a woman of your understanding I believe there would be a very good working relationship.

One thing I would say is that in reference to Deborah and Barak, she was trying to get him to take the rule of a man and do what God was asking him to do. Also, there is a difference between a prophetess and a leader, although in her case she became the leader because of her relationship to God and the lack of Godly men at that time.
 
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Just to clarify, the original post was in reference to the submissive rule Godly women play in the family and trying to understand how that relates to the work force society. It was not to say that women should not be there. It was just an attempt to see how the lines cross. Why would God require a woman to be submissive in a home, but not in society in general. Pure question, not trying to make a statement. Was Eve a co-leader in naming the animals?

Deborah 4:4 Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time.

Who really was the leader of Israel, Deborah or Lappidoth? If Deborah, then how was she submissive to Lappidoth?
 
Deborah 4:4 Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time.
Who really was the leader of Israel, Deborah or Lappidoth? If Deborah, then how was she submissive to Lappidoth?

Wife might be woman.
Lappidoth may not be her husband's name, but the city she hails from, that is; the woman from Lappidoth.
Apparently lappidoth means torches, so it might mean "fiery woman".
https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/deborah-bible
I didn't read and don't vouch for the article, I am just referencing their take on the possible literal meanings of the Hebrew words.

In the latter two cases, the question of submission is moot.
But Judges 13 seems to give biblical precedent for God commanding a woman apart from thru her husband.
 
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There is a patriarchal order of organisation in the structure of the Kingdom. We are not told we must impose that order everywhere.

There's also a basic principle here that should discourage any man from trying to elevate himself over the women in his workplace due purely to his gender - a very fundamental principle that is repeated in various forms in scripture:
Proverbs 25:6-7 said:
Don’t exalt yourself in the presence of the king,
or claim a place among great men;
for it is better that it be said to you, “Come up here,”
than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince,
whom your eyes have seen.
Luke 14:8-11 said:
“When you are invited by anyone to a wedding feast, don’t sit in the best seat, since perhaps someone more honorable than you might be invited by him, and he who invited both of you would come and tell you, ‘Make room for this person.’ Then you would begin, with shame, to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when he who invited you comes, he may tell you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at the table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”
James 4:6 said:
... “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
If you act in employment as if you should be promoted higher than your female colleagues simply because you're a man, you're not going to get very far. And it's really not about feminism, it's simpler than that. If you're going to act that proud, God Himself will humble you. However if you work hard and diligently and show by your merits that you are worth promoting, you will earn the respect of your colleagues, both male and female.
Was Eve a co-leader in naming the animals?
No, they were all named before she was made. Check Genesis 2. A careful look at the order of events in that chapter is very enlightening for multiple reasons.
 
I also believe that whenever men don't stand up and lead, women will stand up in their place. This is what we see in the case of Deborah. I don't think women should necessarily be criticised for this, I think it is a fundamental aspect of their created nature. It's God's backup plan - He has designed women to step up when the men do not.

If women are the leaders as prophesied in Isaiah 3:10, does that mean the women are doing something wrong? In some situations it may, we certainly see that in modern feminism. But does it not more fundamentally mean that the men have neglected their duties so much that the women have been forced to step in instead? This is something for men to be ashamed of, and that should inspire men to more diligent work.

A great explanation of the strong nature of women is given in 1 Esdras 4:13, I love this. Read it out at a wedding last year...
1 Esdras 4:14-32 said:
O sirs, is not the king great, and men are many, and wine is strong? who is it then that rules them, or has the lordship over them? are they not women? Women have borne the king and all the people that bear rule by sea and land. Even of them came they: and they nourished them up that planted the vineyards, from whence the wine comes. These also make garments for men; these bring glory to men; and without women can’t men be. Yes, and if men have gathered together gold and silver and any other goodly thing, and see a woman which is comely in favor and beauty, they let all those things go, and gape after her, and even with open mouth fix their eyes fast on her; and have all more desire to her than to gold or silver, or any goodly thing whatever. A man leaves his own father that brought him up, and his own country, and joins with his wife. And with his wife he ends his days, and remembers neither father, nor mother, nor country. By this also you must know that women have dominion over you: do you not labor and toil, and give and bring all to women? Yes, a man takes his sword, and goes forth to make outroads, and to rob and to steal, and to sail upon the sea and upon rivers; and looks upon a lion, and walks in the darkness; and when he has stolen, plundered, and robbed, he brings it to his love. Wherefore a man loves his wife better than father or mother. Yes, many there be that have run out of their wits for women, and become bondmen for their sakes. Many also have perished, have stumbled, and sinned, for women. And now do you not believe me? is not the king great in his power? do not all regions fear to touch him? Yet did I see him and Apame the king’s concubine, the daughter of the illustrious Barticus, sitting at the right hand of the king, and taking the crown from the king’s head, and setting it upon her own head; yes, she struck the king with her left hand: and therewithal the king gaped and gazed upon her with open mouth: if she laughed upon him, he laughed also: but if she took any displeasure at him, he was fain to flatter, that she might be reconciled to him again. O sirs, how can it be but women should be strong, seeing they do thus?
 
I would not necessarily apply Paul's strictures to the work place. However it certainly applies to any religious instruction or authority and also to the home. And there is some evidence that boys are better schooled by men (any schooling).

However Isaiah 3-4 does indicate God may have a different idea about women bosses than our current societal view. And if Paul says women shouldn't have religious authority over men because they are easily deceived, how is secular authority any different?

If women are the leaders as prophesied in Isaiah 3:10, does that mean the women are doing something wrong? In some situations it may, we certainly see that in modern feminism. But does it not more fundamentally mean that the men have neglected their duties so much that the women have been forced to step in instead? This is something for men to be ashamed of, and that should inspire men to more diligent work.

The idea that women are forced to step up because men aren't playing their role is feminist apologetics. I'm not sure if secular female bosses is an example of that, the average male worker doesn't get to pick his boss, but in general this sort of reasoning is often used to excuse woman's rebellion and it's wrong. Female rebellion doesn't require male neglect, they've been doing it since Eve, and men slacking doesn't men women are justified to rebel.

Let's also remember the context of Isaiah 3, it starts in Isaiah 2 with a prosperous and powerful people who have turned away from God to worshiping idols. Isaiah 3:12 mentions women and children their rulers, and this was a condemnation. And it is clear this isn't some religious ruling only, if you look at 3:4-5

“I will give to be their princes,
And babes shall rule over them.
The people will be oppressed,
Every one by another and every one by his neighbor;
The child will be insolent toward the elder,
And the base toward the honorable.”

Which, like much of the rest of the section, sounds word for word like today.

Ironically enough, compared to men, women are significantly more likely to prefer a male boss to a female one and significantly less likely to be indifferent to the sex of their boss. Although I'm not sure if this is a reflection of the differing leadership styles/treatment of fellow women or an inborn desire to be ruled by men (vis a vi Gen 3:16).

Which brings up a different thought. If it is ok for women to rule men (despite the Gen 3:16), does that mean men likewise no longer need work for their food by the sweat of their brow (Gen 3:19)?
 
Although I'm not sure if this is a reflection of the differing leadership styles/treatment of fellow women or an inborn desire to be ruled by men (vis a vi Gen 3:16).
I have seen plenty of articles and research that shows women preferring male work leaders' and have seen it expressed in real life. I think, whether they realize it or not, that women are desirous of both (style and rule by men). It's also safety. Women leaders often use the gossip tactic and cliques to bring their policies into order and that is an unsafe feeling.

I will respectfully disagree with the remainder of the post. I think there are merits, but if a man is operating in the general society, he just can't have it that way. Even if he works for himself (entrepreneur) he will have customers (someone you have to please) that will be women. You just can't get around it. It's all theory unless you are asking fir a strict theocracy. I won't sign up for that, though.
 
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