Women bosses and working with women

[rockfox]

It's all theory unless you are asking fir a strict theocracy.

So was America a theocracy until the 1960's? Because until women were pushed into the workplace en masse, few to none were managers.

Who said anything about theocracy? Enshrining the OT into law the only way to create social change. But that's all a different question; I'm interested in what God wills, not whether or not it is practical or acceptable. This can be a question of personal application for many Christian women or their heads.

And in the age of me too mass hysteria, no shortage of secular men are asking the same questions.

 

[Cap]

Which brings up a different thought. If it is ok for women to rule men (despite the Gen 3:16), does that mean men likewise no longer need work for their food by the sweat of their brow (Gen 3:19)?

I tend to agree with the thought that somehow dividing church and state in regards to work gender structures seems to open up a strange can of worms. Is a stay at home dad a biblical thing? I'm just wondering not saying anything is right or wrong. (I took that rule once in my life. That marriage ended for other reasons in which a woman found other work related interests outside the house.)

 

[Nikud]

However Isaiah 3-4 does indicate God may have a different idea about women bosses than our current societal view. And if Paul says women shouldn't have religious authority over men because they are easily deceived, how is secular authority any different?

Explain Deborah please. I have my own explaintion but since you have an incite to the will of G-d and his veiws of women in secular authority I would like to hear yours. Deborah was a Judge and a Prophet.

Edit: This sounded confrontational but its not ment that way.

 

[Mojo]

@rockfox, would you work directly for a woman?

 

[Patricia C]

One thing I do happen to know about Ethiopia is that if I took an Ethiopian wife I'd surely have my siblings and others grumbling against me.

Why is that?

 

[Patricia C]

@rockfox
"The idea that women are forced to step up because men aren't playing their role is feminist apologetics. I'm not sure if secular female bosses is an example of that, the average male worker doesn't get to pick his boss, but in general this sort of reasoning is often used to excuse woman's rebellion and it's wrong. Female rebellion doesn't require male neglect, they've been doing it since Eve, and men slacking doesn't men women are justified to rebel."

Sometimes when you share I am right there with you, in total agreement. But then you say things like you did above and I wonder where your disconnect comes from? Or am i just not understanding you?
I can't help but take some of this as personal.... I am a woman and I have had to step up and be the leader in everyway in my family. Please explain to me how stepping up in the home to take care of and provide for my family is feminist?
If I have needs in my home to provide for my family and the "father" isn't doing it because it is to "hard". Why should our children suffer? Or do I wait around for a man that didn't come to take care of me and another man's children. If a man is not living up to his responsibilities at home and is given a job to do in the work force, making $15 hr. Simply because he is a man. Yet a woman has the exact same qualifications and is offered the job for $10hr. And has a family of 4 to provide for how is she a feminist?
I just don't understand the reasoning. Is a mother of 4 supposed to take a lesser job and glean the trash to provide for her family in order to allow a man to have a higher paying job just because he is a man? Is that what it would take for men in today's society, who many have abandoned their faith in search of fame, fortune or the persona. Is that what it takes to reestablish Godly order and balance?
You see Jesus called men to love their wives as He loves the church. Jesus was loving, patient, kind, slow to anger, not boastful or envious. He was Just and righteous. These are not qualities most men adopt.
We have had years.... generations of families who have struggled and passed down from one generation to the next lessons of survival. None of this is how God intended His Children to live.
Jesus called women to Honor their Husbands and Fathers but when there is no Husbad or Father present, how can a woman fulfil that God given request.
I have never argued the the women's liberation movement didn't cause great harm but I did come from a long line of strong women who were forced to be strong. Most of the time at their own detriment.
Men who are called off to war never to return or to return so broken they cant manage. Is it right then for the wife to go to work and make half that of a man?
Please help me understand.
Shalom,
Patricia

 

[rockfox]

In case it's not clear to those of you who don't read much of my writing, I'm not sure the answers to the OP or what God's will here is. I'm mainly throwing around ideas.

Is a stay at home dad a biblical thing?

It is more complicated than you think. For much of human history, dad working outside the home wasn't even a thing in society. Fathers working jobs outside the home for other people apart from their family is generally a novelty of late stage civilizations; not the dominant human experience. Families tended to work together; whether that was in tribes, on the farm, in the family business or whathaveyou.

I would generally say that the order of preference is in descending order: Both at home, Mom at home Dad working, Dad at home Mom working, Both working. None of that is a commentary on sinfulness or not, as I'm not sure where the line's are, just what is best for marriage/family/kids. The farther on in that list the more likely you are to have problems. There are exceptions; a really good leader can make both working work out better than a poor leader both at home; but that doesn't mean it is wise to do so. But sometimes you just have to deal with the hand you're dealt. But other times people are unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to better their lives.

Many Christians say a woman should not work outside the home but stay with the kids; yet there are examples in scripture of Godly women doing exactly that. Likewise they often say men are responsible for getting a job and supporting the family; yet there are scriptural commands to men which imply men being at home raising the children. A lot of our ideas on who works or is at home is cruft from the economy of the 1960's USA.

Explain Deborah please. I have my own explanation but since you have an incite to the will of G-d and his views of women in secular authority I would like to hear yours. Deborah was a Judge and a Prophet.

Well first of all, there are NT women prophets, that doesn't seem to be a thing that goes against 'having authority over men'. Or if it is, the early church saw it as God making an exception; after all, if God was truly speaking through the prophet, who were they to complain?

Now Deborah is often used as an excuse for all sorts of transgressions of direct commands from scripture (such as: elders must be men). But that's not rightly dividing the word. She can safely be viewed as the exception that proves the rule. It is not wise to build a normative theology on top of Deborah as a example because she is a very rare exception.

'incite to the will of G-d' .... is that sarcasm or a compliment? Honestly, when it comes to women leaders in secular matters, I'm not sure yet the answer. I could make the case either way.

What is your explanation of Deborah?

@rockfox, would you work directly for a woman?

Unless you're looking for the bias in my ideas, this isn't applicable to the question of what God wants. But to be transparent, I have worked with women in the past; both as colleagues and managers. Ignoring scripture for the moment, as a personal matter I would not be opposed, depending on her skill as manager. Although I haven't perceived this to be likely to occur so I have not mentally processed how metoo factors into this; that could change things.

 

[rockfox]

Sometimes when you share I am right there with you, in total agreement. But then you say things like you did above and I wonder where your disconnect comes from? Or am i just not understanding you?

I have to go now but I'll answer your questions tomorrow morning.

Peace.

 

[rustywest4]

Why is that?

I was just being silly referencing when Aaron and Miriam were speaking against Moses after he had taken another wife, which happened to be an Ethiopian woman.

Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman. (‭Numbers‬ ‭12‬:‭1‬ NKJV)

 

[Patricia C]

I was just being silly referencing when Aaron and Miriam were speaking against Moses after he had taken another wife, which happened to be an Ethiopian woman.

Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman. (‭Numbers‬ ‭12‬:‭1‬ NKJV)

Oh I still don't understand. That's ok I don't think I am supposed to understand.

 

[FollowingHim]

If a man is not living up to his responsibilities at home and is given a job to do in the work force, making $15 hr. Simply because he is a man. Yet a woman has the exact same qualifications and is offered the job for $10hr.

Patricia, I agree with the vast majority of what you wrote, I just wanted to point out a minor side-issue. In my understanding, the idea of women being paid less for the same work is usually a myth, perpetuated for political reasons. I am sure it happens in some circumstances, and it may be that the society where I live is different to the society where you live. But in general, from the actual statistics I have seen, men and women usually get paid the same for the same job.

But, on average, women do get paid less than men. There are multiple reasons for this, for instance:

• Women tend to do different jobs than men.
  
• When pursuing the same career, a woman still tends to take many years off to raise children at one stage of her life, so doesn't have as many effective years in the workforce so does not get as many promotions & pay rises.
• Women often change careers after having children, setting promotions back to zero.
• Women often work shorter hours in the same career as they are responsible for childcare so have to be home when the kids get back from school.
• Many women stay at home full-time and have zero income, seriously reducing the "average" pay for women even if working women were getting paid the same as men.

Etc. But it's not usually about unfairness. Usually they're being paid fairly, but doing different work on average.

Except for one thing - if you hire a young fertile woman, you know there's a good chance she'll quit if she gets pregnant. While if you hire a man of the same age, you don't have anywhere near this level of risk. Due to the cost of hiring and retraining staff, this risk does impose real costs on a business, and means that a business genuinely may not be able to afford to pay a woman of that age as much as a man. But this happens increasingly rarely as businesses are having to ignore this real cost due to public pressure for equal pay, if any hint got out that they were actually taking full account of the financial risks involved in employment they'd be run out of town... So it's easier to take the financial risk and maintain a positive public image.

Which means that this real financial issue is ignored and people end up with equal pay for the same work, in most circumstances.

 

[Nikud]

incite to the will of G-d' .... is that sarcasm or a compliment? Honestly, when it comes to women leaders in secular matters, I'm not sure yet the answer. I could make the case either way.

What is your explanation of Deborah?

Not sarcasm, you and I seem to have views radically different views, but I've come to realise we're not so far apart and i just hold myself and other men to a different level of accountablity because of the culure i grew up in, life experiences, and the things I see going on around me.. We both agree about feminism being destructive, I just don't agree with all your veiws. That being said from time to time you have shared some incites that I found supported in scripture ,that I have overlooked.

This is my interpretation and understanding, I've found nothing to confirm or disprove it yet, just reading between the lines. Deborah was a Judge and Prophet in a time when Israel had turned there back on G-d again. There were no righteous men to become a Prophet so G-d chose a righteous woman. Since she was a Prophet and G-d wanted His people back under His cover It fell on her to lead. I find this supported by how women can teach non beleivers and guide them to the Yeshua.

 

[Patricia C]

Patricia, I agree with the vast majority of what you wrote, I just wanted to point out a minor side-issue. In my understanding, the idea of women being paid less for the same work is usually a myth, perpetuated for political reasons. I am sure it happens in some circumstances, and it may be that the society where I live is different to the society where you live. But in general, from the actual statistics I have seen, men and women usually get paid the same for the same job.

But, on average, women do get paid less than men. There are multiple reasons for this, for instance:

• Women tend to do different jobs than men.
  
• When pursuing the same career, a woman still tends to take many years off to raise children at one stage of her life, so doesn't have as many effective years in the workforce so does not get as many promotions & pay rises.
• Women often change careers after having children, setting promotions back to zero.
• Women often work shorter hours in the same career as they are responsible for childcare so have to be home when the kids get back from school.
• Many women stay at home full-time and have zero income, seriously reducing the "average" pay for women even if working women were getting paid the same as men.

Etc. But it's not usually about unfairness. Usually they're being paid fairly, but doing different work on average.

Except for one thing - if you hire a young fertile woman, you know there's a good chance she'll quit if she gets pregnant. While if you hire a man of the same age, you don't have anywhere near this level of risk. Due to the cost of hiring and retraining staff, this risk does impose real costs on a business, and means that a business genuinely may not be able to afford to pay a woman of that age as much as a man. But this happens increasingly rarely as businesses are having to ignore this real cost due to public pressure for equal pay, if any hint got out that they were actually taking full account of the financial risks involved in employment they'd be run out of town... So it's easier to take the financial risk and maintain a positive public image.

Which means that this real financial issue is ignored and people end up with equal pay for the same work, in most circumstances.

You do point out some real facts and challenges.
This system isn't equal or fair to either sex. It won't be until God's reign. So the true challenge is where do we as a society go from here. That could open a door to so many different topics.
So that is a great place for me to exit LOL!
Have a blessed evening, Shalom

 

[Cap]

@rockfox
"The idea that women are forced to step up because men aren't playing their role is feminist apologetics. I'm not sure if secular female bosses is an example of that, the average male worker doesn't get to pick his boss, but in general this sort of reasoning is often used to excuse woman's rebellion and it's wrong. Female rebellion doesn't require male neglect, they've been doing it since Eve, and men slacking doesn't men women are justified to rebel."

Sometimes when you share I am right there with you, in total agreement. But then you say things like you did above and I wonder where your disconnect comes from? Or am i just not understanding you?
I can't help but take some of this as personal.... I am a woman and I have had to step up and be the leader in everyway in my family. Please explain to me how stepping up in the home to take care of and provide for my family is feminist?
If I have needs in my home to provide for my family and the "father" isn't doing it because it is to "hard". Why should our children suffer? Or do I wait around for a man that didn't come to take care of me and another man's children. If a man is not living up to his responsibilities at home and is given a job to do in the work force, making $15 hr. Simply because he is a man. Yet a woman has the exact same qualifications and is offered the job for $10hr. And has a family of 4 to provide for how is she a feminist?
I just don't understand the reasoning. Is a mother of 4 supposed to take a lesser job and glean the trash to provide for her family in order to allow a man to have a higher paying job just because he is a man? Is that what it would take for men in today's society, who many have abandoned their faith in search of fame, fortune or the persona. Is that what it takes to reestablish Godly order and balance?
You see Jesus called men to love their wives as He loves the church. Jesus was loving, patient, kind, slow to anger, not boastful or envious. He was Just and righteous. These are not qualities most men adopt.
We have had years.... generations of families who have struggled and passed down from one generation to the next lessons of survival. None of this is how God intended His Children to live.
Jesus called women to Honor their Husbands and Fathers but when there is no Husbad or Father present, how can a woman fulfil that God given request.
I have never argued the the women's liberation movement didn't cause great harm but I did come from a long line of strong women who were forced to be strong. Most of the time at their own detriment.
Men who are called off to war never to return or to return so broken they cant manage. Is it right then for the wife to go to work and make half that of a man?
Please help me understand.
Shalom,
Patricia

The parable of the talents and the parable of the workers comes to mind. Seems equality is not an issue with God, but of fairness based on how He views fairness.

 

[IshChayil]

Neat tidbit about Deborah (sounds like bee in Hebrew),
the song she sang is extremely Archaic Hebrew and quite hard to understand (Judges 5:2-31). Seems she was quite educated in poetry (much biblical poetry models itself as older i.e. pre-biblical Hebrew, perhaps to get that nice Victorian English feeling we get from older English translations [which were modern in their day but sound old and "bible-y" now].
So she was Judge, prophetess, and less often recognized as poet / master of the old language as it were.

Regarding having females as bosses; I never liked it. In my case they were liberal New Englanders sent down by corporate to replace all the male managers when our company was part of a corporate buy out. All 7 software managers were ladies from Massachusetts. Interesting, in STEM field we suddenly had 100% female bosses. It was horrible for everyone I knew.
I'm certain if they had been G-d fearing ladies who actually knew something about software and weren't just affirmative action plants insecure with their positions then things would have gone much better.
After a year of that I quit.

 

[IshChayil]

Patricia, I agree with the vast majority of what you wrote, I just wanted to point out a minor side-issue. In my understanding, the idea of women being paid less for the same work is usually a myth, perpetuated for political reasons. I am sure it happens in some circumstances, and it may be that the society where I live is different to the society where you live. But in general, from the actual statistics I have seen, men and women usually get paid the same for the same job.

But, on average, women do get paid less than men. There are multiple reasons for this, for instance:

• Women tend to do different jobs than men.
  
• When pursuing the same career, a woman still tends to take many years off to raise children at one stage of her life, so doesn't have as many effective years in the workforce so does not get as many promotions & pay rises.
• Women often change careers after having children, setting promotions back to zero.
• Women often work shorter hours in the same career as they are responsible for childcare so have to be home when the kids get back from school.
• Many women stay at home full-time and have zero income, seriously reducing the "average" pay for women even if working women were getting paid the same as men.

Etc. But it's not usually about unfairness. Usually they're being paid fairly, but doing different work on average.

Except for one thing - if you hire a young fertile woman, you know there's a good chance she'll quit if she gets pregnant. While if you hire a man of the same age, you don't have anywhere near this level of risk. Due to the cost of hiring and retraining staff, this risk does impose real costs on a business, and means that a business genuinely may not be able to afford to pay a woman of that age as much as a man. But this happens increasingly rarely as businesses are having to ignore this real cost due to public pressure for equal pay, if any hint got out that they were actually taking full account of the financial risks involved in employment they'd be run out of town... So it's easier to take the financial risk and maintain a positive public image.

Which means that this real financial issue is ignored and people end up with equal pay for the same work, in most circumstances.

Good stuff...
In the states the stats (as I heard them from Ben Shapiro at the DailyWire) are that women get paid 6% MORE than men in the same jobs nowadays... so what you said and then some.
One other thing, Jordan Peterson makes the point that women do often get passed over for raises later in their careers because they are more agreeable; the same is true with men who are more amiable types. He claims to have successfully helped a number of female patients in his clinical psychology practice increase their work wages by decreasing their agreeableness with management.

 

[rockfox]

In the states the stats (as I heard them from Ben Shapiro at the DailyWire) are that women get paid 6% MORE than men in the same jobs nowadays... so what you said and then some.

Yes. IIRC this is being seen in the up and coming younger cohorts. This is likely a pro-female bias combined with them being on average not yet married so aren't yet making choices w.r.t. family that costs them in pay and/or advancement and haven't been at it long enough to bear the costs of their generally less aggressive pay negotiation styles / unwillingness to change jobs for higher pay. Additionally men their age don't yet have families, and employers know a guy with a family will work harder and be more reliable than a woman (married or not) or a single man. And said men are also more motivated to do things to earn more money.

@FollowingHim is correct, this issue has been studied very deeply by economists and is well understood. The pay gap is a feminist myth that was debunked literally decades ago; at least as far back as the 80's or even 70's.

 

[rockfox]

Sometimes when you share I am right there with you, in total agreement. But then you say things like you did above and I wonder where your disconnect comes from? Or am i just not understanding you?

Let me restate what I'm trying to communicate....

I also believe that whenever men don't stand up and lead, women will stand up in their place. This is what we see in the case of Deborah. I don't think women should necessarily be criticised for this, I think it is a fundamental aspect of their created nature. It's God's backup plan - He has designed women to step up when the men do not.

If women are the leaders as prophesied in Isaiah 3:10, does that mean the women are doing something wrong? In some situations it may, we certainly see that in modern feminism. But does it not more fundamentally mean that the men have neglected their duties so much that the women have been forced to step in instead?

The context of Isaiah is that the people had rejected God and turned to idols and so God as punishment made women and children their rulers. Women rulers were punishment, not the backup plan. No where in that chain of causal events is the problem men failing to step up and be leaders nor did God call out men specifically for their disobedience but the nation as a whole.

Men not doing their role is simply an excuse being used to differ blame. It's not even true usually. And it does not work; if it is wrong for women to do something, the fact that men fail to do it does not excuse their behavior. There is no get out of jail free card for female rebellion. What I'm not saying is that it is wrong for women to work outside the home, as I said, I'm not sure if female bosses is an example of this or not.

On the subject at hand, I see zero evidence that men in general are failing to get jobs and become bosses. Women aren't becoming bosses because there is a shortage of qualified men to do the job. To the contrary, what we have going on is a world wide societal engineering push to implement feminism wherein men are actively discriminated against and women attempt to invade and control all male spaces. What I do see is men who can't get work because their industries have slumped, men who are actively discriminated against, young men who have no reason to work harder because marriage has been ruined and young women no longer want to get married.

Feminism at heart is rooted in envy; that same thing the serpent appealed to in Eve. There is a line of argumentation that goes thus:

Have you ever noticed that feminists aren't squawking to achieve fair female representation in dirty, dangerous, or lowly jobs ? No, most of the attention is on glamorous ones like CEO.

And while that line of argument is rhetorically true as to some of the motives of feminism, I checked to see how it was playing out literally, say garbage pickers. And low and behold they're complaining about that too. And funnily enough their first line of argument is men weren't standing up and doing their job: the piles of garbaged are growing uncontrollably in the streets!

Have you noticed any mountains of trash around your neighborhood? Ya, me neither.