That verse has been used way too often to prove that we must work for our salvation from eternal punishment, but Paul often uses the term salvation when he is talking about sanctification. He told Timothy that he will save himself and others with certain teachings, and he aso said that the woman will be saved through childbirth.
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Polygyny IS a salvation issue.
- Thread starter BiblicalLiteralist
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Okay but now you’re doing it, salvation is the beginning of avoiding eternal punishment, not the completion thereof.
That is somewhat of a confusing remark.
In the Baptist church, we always break it down to Justification (past), Sanctification (present), and Glorification (future).
The Scripture that the 1st century churches used for Sanctification is what we call today the "Old Testament." That's the only Scripture the noble Bereans had at their exposure to test if Paul was preaching the truth. They weren't using what we call today as the "New Testament," because it didn't exist.
It's rare churches use books like Deuteronomy for sanctification. One reason: There are many things in that book (Word of God) that is no longer politically correct. Even though, Jesus (Joshua/Yahoshua) quoted three different verses from Deuteronomy on the mountain against the adversary. What worked against the adversary yesterday is considered "done away with" today. Lots of Bible studies on Proverbs, however. Which is fine, but Proverbs doesn't have much meat in terms of instructions.
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I disagree. Just read the opening verses of the Book of Proverbs and we are told of its purpose.
The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel:
To know wisdom and instruction,
To perceive the words of understanding,
To receive the instruction of wisdom,
Justice, judgment, and equity;
To give prudence to the simple,
To the young man knowledge and discretion—
A wise man will hear and increase learning,
And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
To understand a proverb and an enigma,
The words of the wise and their riddles (Proverbs 1:1-6).
I've been reading a chapter from Proverbs every day for my wives and seen the impact on their lives, and mine. These short sayings are gems when dealing with the real-life daily challenges we all face.
The book of Proverbs also exalts and points to the Torah:
To fully understand the book of proverbs is to understand that his ways are higher than our ways, and that his instructions weren’t done away with at the cross/stake.
Are we in the Ghetto now?
lol... No, but without rancor, much can be discussed. No one cares what anyone thinks if they are not doing it in a loving way. If done in a loving way, there is no need for the Ghetto.....
Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.
As long as we stick to the Word of God - there shouldn't be any problem discussing any part of His Word. I'm not commanding or judging anyone, and I think we can all agree that we've inherited lies:
Jeremiah 16:19
O YHVH, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of distress, the nations (Gentiles) will come to You from the ends of the earth, and they will say, “Our fathers inherited nothing but lies, worthless idols of no benefit at all.
Our aim should be sanctification, which leads to walking in truth and righteousness:
3 John 1:4
I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.
John 4:24
For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”
John 17:17
Sanctify them by your Truth (Father) - your Word is Truth.
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No! You know the Biblical Families rules, and you can't help but flaunt them.
I haven't attacked, judged, or condemned anyone. From the Messiah himself:
Luke 8:21
Jesus replied, “My mother and my brothers are all those who hear God’s word and obey it.”
Define what God's Word is?
And what is righteousness according to the Bible? Romans 2:13. Isaiah 51:7. 1 Peter 3:12.
Then meditate on this proverb:
Proverbs 15:29
YHVH is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
It's all connected. You want to practice polygyny in a world perverted as this one? How can you be successful without at least some righteousness with the Almighty? People have stumbled on this truth - and it cost them their marriage and children. Others found out about biblical polygyny - walk in truth - and miracles happen. It's all connected. And last I read in 2 Timothy 3:16 -- All Scripture is profitable for training in righteousness.
Psalm 119:1
Blessed are those whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the Law (Torah) of YHVH.
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He’s right @OttoM . You are straying very close to the line and if Jolene wasn’t involved in the conversation I would have deleted it already.
On the topic of polygyny and the book of Proverbs:
Proverbs 28:4
They that forsake the Law (Torah) praise the wicked.
Interesting to note - it wasn’t until the Council of Trent in 1563 did Rome officially declare:
"If anyone says that it is lawful for Christians to have several wives at the same time, and that this is not prohibited by any divine law (Torah); let him be anathema"
Then just 23 years later (1586) they put an Egyptian obelisk in the Vatican. The Egyptians were a monogamous pagan nation, so by bringing in a phallic pagan symbol - they give praise to wickedness. My Father in Heaven calls such things abominations. But the Roman Church aligns herself with such abominations, because she has declared the ways of the Father (like many churches of the world) as evil. Fulfilling the word of the Prophet Isaiah - “They call good - evil and evil - good.”
Many (Christian) countries all throughout the world that have aligned themselves with the customs of pagan nations (like enforced monogamy), feature an Egyptian obelisk. They don’t like the ways of the Father in Heaven, and do violence to his Son (The Word made Flesh). The Washington mount, for example, is 6660 inches tall and 666 inches wide. It’s all satanic and gives praise to wickedness. Many of these countries have major problems with whoredom, abortions, and divorce. Which fulfills the word of the Prophet Jeremiah: The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of YHVH, what kind of wisdom do they have? And the Proverb - There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against YHVH. Amein - HalleluYAH. He is the Strong Fortress and Rock.
Proverbs 28:4
They that forsake the Law (Torah) praise the wicked.
Interesting to note - it wasn’t until the Council of Trent in 1563 did Rome officially declare:
"If anyone says that it is lawful for Christians to have several wives at the same time, and that this is not prohibited by any divine law (Torah); let him be anathema"
Then just 23 years later (1586) they put an Egyptian obelisk in the Vatican. The Egyptians were a monogamous pagan nation, so by bringing in a phallic pagan symbol - they give praise to wickedness. My Father in Heaven calls such things abominations. But the Roman Church aligns herself with such abominations, because she has declared the ways of the Father (like many churches of the world) as evil. Fulfilling the word of the Prophet Isaiah - “They call good - evil and evil - good.”
Many (Christian) countries all throughout the world that have aligned themselves with the customs of pagan nations (like enforced monogamy), feature an Egyptian obelisk. They don’t like the ways of the Father in Heaven, and do violence to his Son (The Word made Flesh). The Washington mount, for example, is 6660 inches tall and 666 inches wide. It’s all satanic and gives praise to wickedness. Many of these countries have major problems with whoredom, abortions, and divorce. Which fulfills the word of the Prophet Jeremiah: The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of YHVH, what kind of wisdom do they have? And the Proverb - There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against YHVH. Amein - HalleluYAH. He is the Strong Fortress and Rock.
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I wasn't exactly engaged in the conversation.
I just liked the scriptures because I see the value in the truth.
On the subject of law...an old cowboy horse trainer I knew liked to point out when people say "You can't legislate morality" that "All legislation is legislating morality. ...but they are either God's morals or man's morals."
So...in America when they decided Congress could "make laws" they created a false god....a modern Baal. Because ancient Baal worship was ....humanism. (man's standards instead of YHWH's) and we the people...is a modern form of humanism.
That is the nutshell version of how we went from free, to enslaved and in bondage as a nation, spiritually, financially, and physically...
and we pay for our own destruction with taxes.
We are Torah affirming because there is no right and wrong, no sin, and everything is "relative" or "That may be true for you" and there can be no consensus or standard in society when the law can change. Prohibition made alcohol illegal, later our president made all Americans turn in their GOLD and someone with a GOLD COIN was breaking "the law."
I personally hate Christians that say our family having two wives is "none of their business" because the instruction in the Scripture is clear. If you see your brother sinning...go to him alone and talk to him. If he hears you you have gained a brother.
They go right to the shunning without the required steps that are supposed to happen first.
So EVERY CHRISTIAN that doesn't confront my husband about what they believe is wrong (polygyny) is guilty....(if they are aware of that passage)...of the third kind of sin. There are sins of ignorance, willful sins of rebellion, and the last kind that has no consequence that others can impose....because only YHWH knows this one.
To him who knows to DO GOOD and does it not...to him it is sin.
Justice, judgement, and protecting the innocent are everyone's business. But you can not have justice with an unjust standard/laws.
*shrugs*
There is another sin they may be involved in - either through ignorance or not - but James highlights it here:
James 4:11
11 Don’t speak evil against each other, dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God’s law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you. 12 God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to judge your neighbor?
Isaiah 33:22
For YHVH (God) is our judge, YHVH is our lawgiver, YHVH is our king; it is he who will save us.
Those that are attacking a Christian’s divine right to have more than one wife - are actually judging the Creator’s Perfect Law (Psalm 19:7). It’s pride and stubbornness to believe the creation knows better than the Creator. According to Jeremiah and the book of Proverbs - such human wisdom will not prevail.
We also know that the Creator’s Divine Law (Torah) is profitable for sanctification, correction, and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).
Paul gives a nice summary here:
1 Timothy 1:8-11
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for kidnappers and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
The problem is the false ideology that by keeping the law it gives you salvation. No - without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin - and there is no temple. You need the blood of Jesus (Yahoshua).
Romans 3:31
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
The Torah instructs death penalties for kidnappers. Even if they are caught before selling their victim. Child kidnappings and sex slavery are a problem. It wouldn’t be a problem if western (Christian) nations followed the Torah.
The Torah forbids usury. The charging of interest to your neighbor:
How about fiat currencies? Paper money based on nothing? Torah also speaks against this as an abomination. Why? Because it causes inflation which hurts the poor and middle class. The US dollar used to be backed by gold. When it was more righteous. As USA and the western nations have gone more and more un-righteous (Anti-Torah) - what has been the fruit of that? Not good.
Which fulfills the word of the Prophet Jeremiah: The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of YHVH, what kind of wisdom do they have? And the Proverb - There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against YHVH. Amein - HalleluYAH. He is the Strong Fortress and Rock.
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There is a difference between applying His laws to the lawlessness that it is for, and slandering your fellow brethren who are believers.
That verse in James is here in many versions.
If someone is clearly sinning especially against their fellowman, then applying the law is not judging the law. Theft, murder, rape, incest, adultery....these are NOT victimless crimes. Possession of weed? That's a man made law. ...no victim.
Well sorcery in the Greek is translated as pharmekia, so I don't know that possession of THC is exactly acceptable in the sight of God.
I hear you Jolene, but my hesitancy for American theocracy lies in two spheres.
1) Imperfect man is an imperfect vessel to administer perfect laws. It’s going to get screwed up somewhere and end up doing God a disservice.
2) Historical evidence to support that doubt. The Massachusetts colony and the civil administrations of Calvin and Zwingli left many ruined or dead. In the name of righteousness, many members of non-aligned groups (Moravians, Anabaptists, Quakers, etc) were persecuted in the name of a civil theocracy. Those theocrats were convinced they were administering God’s laws, when it was often their opinions that they were protecting.
But imperfect man who fears YHWH, attempting to minister His perfect law has GOT TO BE BETTER than letting imperfect man make conflicting and competing laws that make legal satanic temples and abortion as a sacrifice to satan....don't you think? Or is having a political system that wages unjust wars, has politicians involved in sexually abusing children, has law enforcement (so called) that deal drugs and protect child traffickers better than attempting to minister His perfect law?
The only system with actual accountability is LOCAL government, ministered by biblically qualified men who fear YHWH and HATE EVIL! YHWH's law is merciful to the innocent. Man and all the gross programing from the holy grove is teaching kids to have sympathy for the wicked!! Alice in Underland was pretty good! Lots of symbolism!! The second was a backstory on the first to make you like the wicked red queen!
Men in Israel were not afraid of judging....where His law was clear...and the saints were told they would judge angels....but now days the local pastor talks behind my husband's back....and other men claiming Christ warn people away from our family. They don't even have the guts to talk TO their neighbor!
We enjoy far better treatment from the atheists and non religious!
The salt lost it's savor somewhere!
Offenses happen. But unjust consequences just cause more offenses.
But it is somehow different in the minds of most when their Dr tells them some pharmaceutical is necessary for their health.
Mormons would talk about Joseph Smith refusing liquor when his leg was operated on, but most of them have "medicine cabinets" full of scrips! Go figure!