Meat Limits of Christian rules

[MemeFan]

I do sense that people here consider Christianity, sort of, magical. Just do rules and everything will be fine in sense that society will be great. I don't include personal tragedies and similar things.

Really? Did we forget to think?

A) Paperwork compliance

I believe I say truth is I say that nobody loves bride price as @Otto. But, will introducing bride price in current Western societies fix anything? For real?

You mean man will send some money to bank account owned by her father, then she will withdrawn money to pay for "marriage ceremony" which will finish with round of hot sex. In the morning she will do photo session with another man as proof of her "sexual immorality" and he will sign divorce papers.

I do hope you will love how bride price has made prostitution mainstream.

If people don't like rules, consider then useless or whatever, what you will get is "paperwork" compliance. They will do just enough so they can say they then did law, while absolutely breaking spirit of law.

B) Doing rules with spirit, still sucks.

I have recently posted thread "Why Christianty failed" and before that "Church hating male sexuality"

No society is desirable society if male sexuality is hated and/or man can't get wife. Why would any man want to remain member of such society? There is no reason.

I do remember story where in some Catholic village none of fathers found existing young men good enough for their daughters. Those men were forced to go outside village and convert women just to get wife.

There are no biblical rules directly stopping such insanity.

C) Great thanks to anti-Biblical ban

If you read Leviticus 18, you will find Lord is fine with cousin marrige (with some exceptions). Yet, sex/marriage with cousins is even more taboo than polygyny.

In short, today Catholic Church has around 7-9 century succeded in forbidding cousin marriage. Why that matters?

Because cousin marriage creates clan society where members of same clan are BFFs, while rest can be robbed..

There are ways to stop this. Rome, Ancient Greece and Islam (somewhat) did created functional communities greater than clan/tribe.

Clan does function as social welfare (retirement, heathcare, uneployment insurance). Without clans, Western Europeans did created voluntary institutions to replace clans which helped created modern world.

Those voluntary institutions did massively raise size of society (from several 100k max to millions) creating wealth, science... Plus they also blocked long term tyrannies in West.

D) Obedience to Lord as goal

I think we should focus on creating functional Christian society, rather than obedience.

I do sense that some commands can only produce good results if rest of society isn't insane.

To make analogy.

Have you heard of monk mode? Historically it was good idea for man to cut social activities to work on wealth and physique in order to increase his chance to find wife in next few years. Today, this is stupidity.

Before nobody could build business without going outside. So man was forced to at least keep his social skills, if not to improve it. Now, thanks to TV, games and social media people aren't spending times together so much. So he risk total loss of social skills thanks to self-isolation. Wealth and physique are useless if he becomes creep.

To conclude, how good are those rules now? In this moment? I don't believe we can just blindly copy them and always expect good results.

To make clear, I do think we should keep spirit and intent of rules.

 

[frederick]

I think we should focus on creating functional Christian society, rather than obedience.

People won't be judged by what anyone thinks is functional; each will be judged according to his or her obedience to God. Learn the lesson from I Samuel 15:22: So Samuel said: “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.

To conclude, how good are those rules now? In this moment? I don't believe we can just blindly copy them and always expect good results.

Elevating the rules and regulations men make above what God has said has never been a good idea. That's what began in the Garden and it hasn't changed. When the religious leaders commanded the apostles to do something contrary to what God commanded, they said, We ought to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29).

 

[Otto]

If you read Leviticus 18, you will find Lord is fine with cousin marrige (with some exceptions). Yet, sex/marriage with cousins is even more taboo than polygyny.

In short, today Catholic Church has around 7-9 century succeded in forbidding cousin marriage. Why that matters?

Because cousin marriage creates clan society where members of same clan are BFFs, while rest can be robbed..

There’s nothing wrong with cousin marriages. It strengthens the family, and brings people together. Part of marriage is about alliances - Solomon understood that very well - but unfortunately it resulted in marrying pagans (which Adonai forbids).

Catholic Church is pro state - meaning - the interests of the state come first. This is the main reason priests can’t have wives. This is the main reason men can’t multiply wives. All these things hurt the state.

 

[Otto]

I believe I say truth is I say that nobody loves bride price as @Otto. But, will introducing bride price in current Western societies fix anything? For real?

Yes - if it includes the backing of the state. People obviously don’t love the Lord (Why do you call me Lord, and not do what I say?). Only fear of punishment will keep this wicked generation from sinning. If there is a mandatory bride price for any boy or man that sleeps with a virgin - and if he can’t afford it - which results in jail-time - which boy or man will risk sleeping with a virgin without intention of marriage?

Women are holding back marrying young - because the world allows them to sleep around with boyfriend after boyfriend with zero punishment. If they can no longer find a man to sleep with them (outside of marriage) - they “WILL” seek marriage much earlier (after high school) - and it’s a strong possibility - they will even better accept polygyny in order to marry the best man possible. Today - they don’t need polygyny - because they can already sleep with the best man - and then move on to the next - and the next - and the next - until they realize they aren’t as attractive as they were at 18 - and look for some simp to marry (and likely eventually divorce and come out big - because let’s face it - most of these whores will miss dating the high value men - and the fact the state rewards them for divorcing their husband - is just the icing on the cake).

 

[MemeFan]

Catholic Church is pro state - meaning - the interests of the state come first. This is the main reason priests can’t have wives. This is the main reason men can’t multiply wives. All these things hurt the state.

In Europe, during 7-9 century only state was Byzantines. Carolingian Empire wasn't state and it got broken in few generations.

Yes - if it includes the backing of the state. People obviously don’t love the Lord (Why do you call me Lord, and not do what I say?). Only fear of punishment will keep this wicked generation from sinning. If there is a mandatory bride price for any boy or man that sleeps with a virgin - and if he can’t afford it - which results in jail-time - which boy or man will risk sleeping with a virgin without intention of marriage?

Women are holding back marrying young - because the world allows them to sleep around with boyfriend after boyfriend with zero punishment. If they can no longer find a man to sleep with them (outside of marriage) - they “WILL” seek marriage much earlier (after high school) - and it’s a strong possibility - they will even better accept polygyny in order to marry the best man possible. Today - they don’t need polygyny - because they can already sleep with the best man - and then move on to the next - and the next - and the next - until they realize they aren’t as attractive as they were at 18 - and look for some simp to marry (and likely eventually divorce and come out big - because let’s face it - most of these whores will miss dating the high value men - and the fact the state rewards them for divorcing their husband - is just the icing on the cake).

None of your predictions will happen.

You assume threat of punishment is enough, yet federales couldn't impose vaccine passorts

There are limits to threaths. You forgot that population of any state is bigger than enforced and can beat enforcers. Only things stopping that are population can't organize itself and population prefer other activities.

So now you have to invoke even more threaths like hell. And since perfect love cast out fear and good father/husband doesn't rule through fear you are literally misrepresenting Lord.

Neither any fear based relationship is wholesome.

By the way, did even read with understandimg what I wrote in first post? I did wrote exactly how population can do paperwork to make state happy it's laws are being obeyed, while doing exactly opposite.

Since I worked on job where people have to show me their ID to be allowed to legally buy something, do you know what I saw? Photoshopped ID card as picture. Literally, we did all the law required, while actually not being of legal age.

 

[MemeFan]

People won't be judged by what anyone thinks is functional; each will be judged according to his or her obedience to God. Learn the lesson from I Samuel 15:22: So Samuel said: “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.

Whose during Jesus time had most zeal for Law and obedience? Pharisees. Yet, Jesus called them vipers.

You assume obedience equals everything good must follow. Yet, you have asked yourself zero times exactly how can obedience make you to finish on Lord's spank list.

Elevating the rules and regulations men make above what God has said has never been a good idea. That's what began in the Garden and it hasn't changed. When the religious leaders commanded the apostles to do something contrary to what God commanded, they said, We ought to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29).

And who does understanding and intepreting commands? Humans.

Haven't you read Jesus healing on Sabbath and religious leaders being unhappy?

I don't say we have to invent new rules. It's when you try to apply existing Lord's rules you can still screw up enough to finish on Lord's naughty side.

And regarding healing on Sabbath. It's OK not because Jesus did, but because healing restores life. Dead and sick people can't to anything or little for Lord. They are being restored from useless to something useful. And this beats any form of religious service since impact is way higher.

 

[frederick]

Whose during Jesus time had most zeal for Law and obedience? Pharisees. Yet, Jesus called them vipers

No, it was Jesus Christ Himself who kept the law perfectly.

Haven't you read Jesus healing on Sabbath and religious leaders being unhappy?

The religious leaders were unhappy because He didn't keep their laws. He kept the law by doing good on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:12).

 

[MemeFan]

You are being obtuse.
The USA was founded as a Christian nation and the extent to which it has failed is the extent to which it has left Christianity.

Nations where Catholicism was in control don’t count because that’s a different system.

I would like for all of you here to explain following:

Arabs do cousin marriage and polygyny.
USA doesn't do cousin marriage and polygyny.

Yet, Arabs states aren't great, but USA. Disobedient is great and obedient isn't.

So something isn't right in cause-effect. What exactly?

 

[MemeFan]

Dear god you must be blind. Take a look at any historic society that embraced Christianity , the net benefit is obvious.

And what are those obvious benefits?

You shouldn't have trouble counting them.

 

[MemeFan]

Another question.

Here is relevant Bible qoute:

And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:

And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.

And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?

And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.
There is slight problem here.

Relevant verse:

You shall not bear false witness

Ummm, midwives break one of 10 Commandments (literally sinning) and Lord makes them house.

So, Lord rewards sin? Where exactly is mistake?

 

[MemeFan]

No, it was Jesus Christ Himself who kept the law perfectly.

It has nothing with Jesus Himself. My argument is simple. Zealous human trying as best as possible to keep Law can still finish with very negative grade.

What would be expect is that zealous person gets good grade not because it's sinless, but because he tries his best and is on fire for Lord.

The religious leaders were unhappy because He didn't keep their laws. He kept the law by doing good on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:12).

No. They didn't invent their law.

They did their best to stop people from breaking Lord's law. Yet, Lord verbally spanks them for exactly that.

Real issue for you, @frederick is your mimdset. You refuse to imagine following Law/breaking Law can finish bad/good. I did provided enough Biblical verses where this did happen.

 

[MrB]

And what are those obvious benefits?

You shouldn't have trouble counting them.

Yes it would appear that you are blind and lazy or just a bit stupid.
Why don’t YOU google “obvious historic benefits of a Christian society”
The phrase that comes to mind for you is “ There is none so blind as he who will not see”
Perhaps you are not as clever as you think you are.

 

[frederick]

Zealous human trying as best as possible to keep Law can still finish with very negative grade.

Perhaps you need to read exactly what Jesus said to those people you are referring to(?) In Matthew 23:13-33, Jesus said, “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgen. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

I find it concerning you want to promote the ones Jesus condemns and to hold them up as examples to follow. They twisted and corrupted the law; Jesus obeyed the Father and kept the law perfectly. Direct people to follow Him because there is an eternal blessing for those who walk by faith in obedience. Shalom

 

[Off-Grid Artist]

Women are holding back marrying young - because the world allows them to sleep around with boyfriend after boyfriend with zero punishment. If they can no longer find a man to sleep with them (outside of marriage) - they “WILL” seek marriage much earlier (after high school) - and it’s a strong possibility - they will even better accept polygyny in order to marry the best man possible. Today - they don’t need polygyny - because they can already sleep with the best man - and then move on to the next - and the next - and the next - until they realize they aren’t as attractive as they were at 18 - and look for some simp to marry (and likely eventually divorce and come out big - because let’s face it - most of these whores will miss dating the high value men - and the fact the state rewards them for divorcing their husband - is just the icing on the cake).

This is true but also yet an understatement.

Mainstream women today are trained from a very young age in divorce culture. They have been trained and applauded for banging as many men as possible while young. Then when they start hitting the wall, they marry down. They find a guy they can manipulate, they emasculate him, then they shockingly find that the man is no longer attractive. Surprise.

A bride price solves all this.

"Wait, what are you trying to tell me, the Bible has good laws which lead to a righteous life??? What?"

Whose during Jesus time had most zeal for Law and obedience? Pharisees. Yet, Jesus called them vipers.

You assume obedience equals everything good must follow. Yet, you have asked yourself zero times exactly how can obedience make you to finish on Lord's spank list.

-----

And regarding healing on Sabbath. It's OK not because Jesus did, but because healing restores life. Dead and sick people can't to anything or little for Lord. They are being restored from useless to something useful. And this beats any form of religious service since impact is way higher.

1). The Pharisees had zeal for teaching Yahweh's instructions, they did not follow them. They would teach Torah but they also were doing the man-made Oral Torah. Yeshua said to do what the Pharisees said to do, but not what they themselves do.

2). Blasphemous. You mock the Creator with obvious intentionality.

3). Healing on the Shabbat is not against Torah. Yeshua was doing no wrong. Torah never says not to heal on the Sabbath. The Pharisees were condemning Yeshua for "breaking" their own rules.

No, it was Jesus Christ Himself who kept the law perfectly.


The religious leaders were unhappy because He didn't keep their laws. He kept the law by doing good on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:12).

All true.

No. They didn't invent their law.

They did. They came out of Babylon with the "Oral Torah," the beginning of the Talmud.

 

[MeganC]

Rules which have no discernible or quantifiable outcomes are pointless.

Obeying rules simply for the recognition of being obedient makes one a serf and little more.

 

[steve]

Rules which have no discernible or quantifiable outcomes are pointless.

Obeying rules simply for the recognition of being obedient makes one a serf and little more.

If the One who created me has a rule that I don’t see as having a point, He is still my Creator and Lord.

 

[MemeFan]

Perhaps you need to read exactly what Jesus said to those people you are referring to(?) In Matthew 23:13-33, Jesus said, “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgen. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

I find it concerning you want to promote the ones Jesus condemns and to hold them up as examples to follow. They twisted and corrupted the law; Jesus obeyed the Father and kept the law perfectly. Direct people to follow Him because there is an eternal blessing for those who walk by faith in obedience. Shalom

I don't promote them.

I said they have the zeal for Law and they missed.

You behave as totally uncorcerned as you couldn't do same mistake. Yes, yes you could.

 

[Off-Grid Artist]

Rules which have no discernible or quantifiable outcomes are pointless.

Obeying rules simply for the recognition of being obedient makes one a serf and little more.

A three year old can't understand the mystery of the horrible boundaries being placed on him by his father. We can agree he would feel the same way.

I used to have this vague idea in my head that after I die there will be an unrolling of the history of the world, and I will know everything that happened. That somehow all the mysteries I never understood will now make sense.

Why, though? I haven't been promised omnipotence. Jesus says He will be the judge in the world to come. That means we're still going to be learning more about the Creation even then.

 

[MemeFan]

1). The Pharisees had zeal for teaching Yahweh's instructions, they did not follow them. They would teach Torah but they also were doing the man-made Oral Torah. Yeshua said to do what the Pharisees said to do, but not what they themselves do.

OK.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor? Easy to understand? No problemo. LOL

Let's go. Define bear, false witness, your neighbor.

Let's with issue of definition. Horewer, there is problem with definitions. Any problem with definition must include words. And what is definition of words used in definition. We could run this till infinity.

So we must break this cycle which means that somewhere we must start to rely on "common understanding" of meaning which must introduce ambiquity.

So practical questions.

1) How far neighbor must live before it stops being neighbor? Can I slander man living 5 km from me? Or is 10 km now acceptable?

2)Tourists comes into shop. Can employees tell him incorrect higher prices?

3)When selling how "honest" you have to be? Does McDonalds have to show their best possible burger or average one? And what is average, by the way?

4) If you slice bread in half what to do? Half price without weighting again or weigh again with new price followed grams? This is recent example from Germany

5) Is deception of enemies during war allowed?

6)Must government during war show all data and activities to it's own population?

I could go and go and go.

See how one sentence is so ambiquiouts. So in practice legal system will have to answer all those and way more. So, end result will be encyclopedia(s) how to do Lord's law in practice made by humans just trying to live Lord's Law.

2). Blasphemous. You mock the Creator with obvious intentionality.

You are speaking total nonsense.

3). Healing on the Shabbat is not against Torah. Yeshua was doing no wrong. Torah never says not to heal on the Sabbath. The Pharisees were condemning Yeshua for "breaking" their own rules.

You aren't thinking.

Exodus 31:14-15

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Read verses precisely. Emphasis on death penalty and any work. So define what is any work?

If you still don't get it. Any work is general prohibition.

Any work can easily include healing. So Pharisees weren't doing corruption. They were trying to applying above Law directly on situation.


So what is exception for Jesus? Where in Law is exception for healing? And if there is no written exception, then you must rely on general principle higher than no work on Sabbath. So by what verse of Law or general principle of Law Jesus isn't breaking Exodud 31:14-15?


You are so uncurious that you never asked yourself what exactly were Pharisees thinking. If don't understand what exactly their mistake is, how do you expect not to repeat their mistakes?

By magic maybe?

Another issues is general unthinking how to apply Law in real practical situations. Because if you do, you would realized situation isn't so black/white.

So practical questions: Is any of following breaking Sabbath?
Do ambulances allowed to help? Are operations needed to save life allowed? Are quality of life (skin rash example) medical activities allowed?
Is fixing broken bones allowed?

Also, another interesting question. Is killing mosquitos doing work on Sabbath? If no, why? How are you doing to justify yourself?

 

[MemeFan]

This is true but also yet an understatement.

Mainstream women today are trained from a very young age in divorce culture. They have been trained and applauded for banging as many men as possible while young. Then when they start hitting the wall, they marry down. They find a guy they can manipulate, they emasculate him, then they shockingly find that the man is no longer attractive. Surprise.

A bride price solves all this.

This doesn't happen.

What women are promoted is carrier. And since church has failed with pushing early marriage, people find way to find to satisfy their needs.

And like bride price will fix anything. You solution is nonsense precisely because you are trying to blindly apply Law. Women are bad, let's fix women. But what about men?

So how exactly will young men get to have sex? If they can't afford price, what then? Celibacy till 40? That's not solution. That's solution for raising valuation of Only Fans and any phone sex and porn website.