Meat Limits of Christian rules

[FeministVampireQueen]

I’ll take your word for it, but he does hide it well.

Lol, well then maybe you and Homesteadwife could start a business together measuring men's masculinity via the internet, since you both seem to be experts on the subject. She could do all of the legwork, like a good woman, and you could do the voting and make the money

 

[HomesteadWife]

That is not what you did at all, and you know it. I'm not going to play games with you or watch you repeatedly twist words like you have this entire thread. I don't know what they're feeding you on that homestead that's gotten you so worked up but I'm not engaging with it anymore.

In this discussion we are discussing the bible and its application to the way we live our lives. Telling someone their viewpoints align with feminist or Luciferian, ideology and choosing to white knight women over biblical truth is not demasculating someone. When I first engaged it was because a sensationalized story was brought into the conversation. Someone giving credence to a woman divorcing her husband for non biblical reasons is contributing to feminism. Note that I did say she could have left her husband at any time, there are just consequences to it. I was arguing against her RIGHT to a divorce biblically.

Not sure what you mean by "agreeing with men." Men aren't a collective, single-brained unit. There are plenty of men who don't think like the majority here, thank the Lord for that.

You said that I was parroting what men had taught me. I never collectivized it to all men.

You have every right to your own opinions, my comment wasn't about stripping away your "agency." Women absolutely get to disagree with feminist ideologies, I do so myself at times. Agreeing with someone doesn't make you a parrot in itself, however, weaponizing "femininity" as an insult undermines the very standards you claim to defend.

Again, saying someone is aligned with an ideology is not demasculating. And upholding the biblical heierchy and role of biblical submission in it and defining out what that means is not demeaning anyone. I do believe that someone who is egalitarian. Is abdicating his biblical role of head of the family to her.

You're so busy calling a man "feminine" that you've apparently forgotten what the word actually means yourself, because there is nothing feminine about the way you're acting.

I have called nobody feminine. Defending the inversion of biblical order is why society is on its current path.

 

[HomesteadWife]

Which biblical order are you upholding? I say this because there are so many different versions of the Bible, some include books that others do not, some include edits that others do not, and etc.

Upholding one version of the Bible is to rebel against all of the others.

It falls to each of us to be in The Word and to determine for ourselves what is of God and what is of men.

We are each given various gifts and one of those is discernment. Just for myself, I've sorted the various laws in the Bible and determined that the ones that God ordained are timeless. The ones that men ordained fall away in due time.

The only biblical order I have been arguing for is God > Christ > Men > Women > Children. I am promoting no particular bible version or church by this.
Note that Church is not included in that hierarchy of order.

Case in point: The popular Christian "rule" against polygamy.

Lots of Christians call this a Biblical stance when there is no such thing in any Bible that I've ever seen. This is a construct of their fevered imaginations and their absurd and rigid orthodoxies.

The ban against polygamy is no more than a tradition.

I agree.

Discernment and my own personal experiences inform me that this tradition was a creation of men. I say that with all certainty because having lived this life I know the truth of it. It is truly God's design and this tree bears delicious fruit.

Living a Godly life gives us a lens through which we can clearly see God's Wisdom. That which adds to the Glory of God we should keep and that which has no constructive purpose we should eschew.

But to blindly follow something that has no constructive purpose?

Thomas Sowell, a wise man of our times, said this:

"You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing."

The church is polluted with this kind of bureaucratic thinking. The outcome of their ministry means nothing, the form of it means everything.

I understand and respect your position on this even if I don't always agree on your application of it. I do agree that pretty much any church (gathering of men) tends to add to Gods actual laws and rules for their own benefit or ego. That is part of fallen human nature, deciding you know more and can make rules better then God. This is part of the lack of submission (of men to God) I was addressing in prior posts.

Evidence of this is found in the trend of the past decade or so for all church staff to assume titles that bring glory to themselves and distraction from the authority of God and the love of His Son.

I laugh my ass off at the vainglorious FOOLS who call themselves a "Lead Pastor" when there's no other pastor in their church.

What happened to humility in the service of God?

A quick search on the web just now came up with this list of fancy names for our Grand And Imperial Ministers:

• Lead Pastor/Senior Pastor/Head Pastor
• Associate Pastor
• Executive Pastor
• Senior Executive Pastor
• Associate Executive Pastor
• Senior Associate Pastor
• Executive Pastor
• Lead Youth Pastor/Senior Youth Pastor/Youth Pastor
• Junior High Youth Pastor
• Senior High Youth Pastor
• School Age Pastor
• Senior Adult Pastor
• Lead Senior Adult Pastor
• Connections Pastor
• Discipleship Pastor
• Evangelism Pastor
• Outreach Pastor
• Assimilation or Connection Pastor
• Pastor of Engagement
• Music Pastor
• Worship Pastor
• Worship and Creative Arts Pastor
• College Pastor
• Career Pastor
• College and Career Pastor
• Young Adults Pastor
• Adults Pastor
• Singles Pastor
• Young Marrieds Pastor
• Pastor of Construction
• Day Care Pastor
• Women’s Pastor
• Men’s Pastor
• Counseling Pastor
• Children’s Pastor
• Administrative Pastor
• Building Services Pastor
• Christian School Pastor
• Foreign Ministries Pastor
• Pre-School Pastor
• Recreational Pastor
• Sports Ministry Pastor
• Technologies Pastor
• Multi-Media Pastor
• Volunteer’s Pastor

Such a focus on titles!!!

What did Jesus have to say about this nonsense? See Matthew 23:8-10

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students. And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah.

I not only rebel against these people who glorify themselves with their titles, I hold them in contempt for leading people away from God to focus on earthly titles and earthly desires.

I agree.

Questioning religious orthodoxy and seeking God's Wisdom is literally the very essence of this group here on BF!

If biblical order be the priority then adhere to what unscrupulous and double-dealing wolves in pastoral robes claim is biblical.

Myself, I prefer God's truth and I prefer the pursuit of truth over the cold comfort of lies.

That said, @MemeFan and @FeministVampireQueen may be just as imperfect in their pursuit of truth as I am, but at least they are trying and at least they are actively seeking truth.

Seeking truth from God is definitely the priority. And questioning it, particularly coming from churches is wise and prudent.

The only reason I engaged is because questioning the biblical order I described above came into play.

The start of this entire thread was created about questioning Gods rules and laws. My main point when it comes to submission to God is that we as believers don't need to know WHY God commands something to obey it. It is nice to have explanation and can help us to value it in a different way but it is not required to obey in the first place.

For example:
God forbade Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He gave them a reason why they weren't supposed to. They still chose to disobey.

He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply. No why was given. They obeyed him.

 

[FeministVampireQueen]

He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply. No why was given. They obeyed him

They didn't have to ask why, though, because God literally gave them the reason and purpose right after the command, lol.

 

[HomesteadWife]

They didn't have to ask why, though, because God literally gave them the reason and purpose right after the command, lol.

God gave them reason and purpose for their lives right after that command. Telling them to have dominion over the earth and subdue it doesn't explain why they have to be fruitful and multiply.

 

[FeministVampireQueen]

God gave them reason and purpose for their lives right after that command. Telling them to have dominion over the earth and subdue it doesn't explain why they have to be fruitful and multiply.

Yes it does, lol, how are you going to have dominion over the earth and subdue it if you're not fruitful and multiplied? Are two people supposed to manage that.

 

[FeministVampireQueen]

This command was given pre-fall. Man had a very different relationship with the earth and animals then. So there was no reason two people couldn't have managed it. No children were born pre fall so obviously they managed it fine.

Exactly, it's almost as though the command was given for a "reason."

 

[HomesteadWife]

Exactly, it's almost as though the command was given for a "reason."

You can't tell me that Adam and Eve weren't boinking each other pre fall. That is them fulfilling their end of the be fruitful and multiply. Thus obeying without a why explanation or reason . God controls the timing.

 

[MemeFan]

That was quite imaginative.
But it was complete baloney.

Most important things I learned from Tom Luongo is to question motives of people.

To whom is Jesus speaking? And why is He saying that.

Jesus certainly wasn't going to advice Jesus how to surrender faster to Romans and become more accepting of existing abuse.

You know, by doing actions beneficial to your enemies isn't exactly beneficial to your own survival. So Jesus's advice can't go into that direction. So there must be some "trick" why to use Jesus advice.

Discipline of Roman army. That's trick. Offenders who force Jews to carry two miles would be punished. If there was no discipline, then soldiers forcing Jews to carry 10 miles wouldn't be punished and advice would work.

This again proves my point. Do you even show curiosity why such advice would work?

 

[MemeFan]

Are you in the heavenly realm right now for that to apply to you currently?

If being Level 1 Peasant in Lord's Kingdom makes you happy.

Current status almost always is due to mans sinful nature and decisions. It does not have to do with God being any less good.

It has nothing with morally of Lord's action.

You literally exist before your parents were horny and Lord wanted you to exist. So in both cases current situation wasn't good enough.

What artist do you know claims that his children were biggest Critics who helped him improve his work? Also you are changing your wording. Input is not the same as critique.

Critique is literally form of input.

The only point I am making is that Jesus is also God. You do not share that divinity just because he chose to take on our humanity and become a brother. Also you ignore biblical hierarchy by claiming equality with Jesus. God > Jesus > Men >Women > Children. Jesus is superior and above men.

Divinity has nothing is Jesus my brother or not. Either Father is my biological sense (true in sense He is Creator of all) or I'm adopted into His family.

Nothing else matters.

I just noticed something strange. If I claim Jesus is my brother because I'm adopted into Lord's family due to faith. Well, Jesus is your brother too.

So what's your problem? You aren't Christian or you don't like your spiritual family? Why would this be so big issue to you?

Yes, but you are proving the original point I made in my first response. You do NOT have to understand WHY to obey.
If superior tells you not to touch something, (which they know is dangerous and can kill you) you obey even without knowing why because superior said so. Maybe this info would help you respect their command more but it is not needed for you to listen and not touch in the first place.

Thanks on giving me dangerous advice which can kill me. Problem is that given advice, when context is changed, can become counter productive.

Really good advice would be to ask how to recognise danger myself in sense that I can in new situation do best possible action.

Also, that dangerous chemical is probably part of class of dangerous chemicals, so better to learn to recognise whole class.

And advice is on purpose. I don't have to obey anyone because I have free will.

Marriage is cooperation where both sides must benefit in order to survive.

 

[steve]

Do you even show curiosity why such advice would work?

I know why Yeshua’s advice works, because it’s sensible.
Your parsing of the situation is utter nonsense.
A Roman soldier would never get in trouble if someone that he conscripted to carry his gear for a mile voluntarily carried it an extra mile. Your belief that he would be in trouble doesn’t make any sense.

 

[HomesteadWife]

Critique is literally form of input.

Yes, but they are different words and do not mean same thing so it would change context of entire discussion had.

Divinity has nothing is Jesus my brother or not. Either Father is my biological thsense (true in sense He is Creator of all) or I'm adopted into His family.

We are Gods children. Not getting into semantics of how here.

Nothing else matter.

Other things matter in the context of the conversation.

I just noticed something strange. If I claim Jesus is my brother because I'm adopted into Lord's family due to faith. Well, Jesus is your brother too.

So what's your problem? You aren't Christian or you don't like your spiritual family? Why would this be so big issue to you?

Yes he is my brother. But we are told to pray to God and ask in Jesus name.

In bible there is hierarchy. God > Jesus > Man > Woman > Children. Being brother doesn't mean equlity with Him in all aspects or it would negate God's order and Jesus own instructions. In bible oldest sons had different level or hierarchy in family than any other children.

Thanks on giving me dangerous advice which can kill me.

Really good advice would be to ask how to recognise danger myself in sense that I can in new situation do best possible action.

Also, that dangerous chemical is probably part of class of dangerous chemicals, so better to learn to recognise whole class.

So listening to a superior who is trying to keep your life safe is going to kill you?

Your whole model of questioning is placing a lot of responsibility on yourself to understand the entire world with much specialized information. It is good to seek information and understand as much as you can.

There comes a point where you do have to trust someone else's knowledge and do something because someone else says so. If only because you don't have time to gather data or knowledge prior to taking some action. The world wouldn't function on your knowledge and questioning model.

 

[MemeFan]

I know why Yeshua’s advice works, because it’s sensible.
Your parsing of the situation is utter nonsense.
A Roman soldier would never get in trouble if someone that he conscripted to carry his gear for a mile voluntarily carried it an extra mile. Your belief that he would be in trouble doesn’t make any sense.

Why it doesn't make sense?

Prove it.

 

[steve]

Why it doesn't make sense?

Prove it.

No, it is you that has to prove your claim.
Your assumptions aren’t proof.

 

[MemeFan]

No, it is you that has to prove your claim.
Your assumptions aren’t proof.

I already provided my proof.

So you just call it stupid instead od doing more laborious right thing: proving it wrong.

 

[MemeFan]

Yes, but they are different words and do not mean same thing so it would change context of entire discussion had.

Nothing would change. There exist constructive critique.

Spirit of communication matters.

So listening to a superior who is trying to keep your life safe is going to kill you?

In that specific case it will help.

What is that to generalize rule and learn wrong. It does matter because humans naturally learn by copying each other.

And what if context changes?

Your whole model of questioning is placing a lot of responsibility on yourself to understand the entire world with much specialized information. It is good to seek information and understand as much as you can.

There comes a point where you do have to trust someone else's knowledge and do something because someone else says so. If only because you don't have time to gather data or knowledge prior to taking some action. The world wouldn't function on your knowledge and questioning model.

You obviously never worry somebody may teach you wrong, either on purpose or accident.

 

[HomesteadWife]

In that specific case it will help.

At least we agree on this.

What is that to generalize rule and learn wrong. It does matter because humans naturally learn by copying each other.

And what if context changes?

Specific may change. Only general point that I made was a superior giving you an order that protects your life can be obeyed without you knowing why order was given.

You obviously never worry somebody may teach you wrong, either on purpose or accident.

Keeping you safe in the scenario given is not teaching you wrong.

 

[MemeFan]

What you choose to ignore here is that those terms were used by me, a woman. As a woman I recognize feminism and its roots when I see and hear them.

Being woman doesn't make your expert in feminism.

I would be willing to bet that most of humans exposing evils of feminism were men.

This is about rebellion against biblical order. I take those words very seriously. They are not buzzwords. Feminism is a subset of Luciferianism. Pride and rebellion against biblical order were the sins of Lucifer and it are the sins he tempted Eve into following him into. Eve was the first feminist. Biblical order is God > Christ > Men > Women > Children. Eve didn't just want to be equal to Adam, like feminist claim they want to be equal with men, she wanted to be equal to God. Luciferians and Feminists are the same, male or female. Women consider themselves to be more spiritual than men (As a general rule) which places them above men and closer to God.

Incorporating rebellion against biblical order is why we have egalitarianism and feminism rampant in the churches today. When a woman no longer has to truly be submissive to a man, in the biblical definition, then she becomes the head of the household by default. The man is abdicating his authority to her.

No. It is exposing a rebellion against biblical order. When a man is placing himself on equal or higher footing than Christ (who is his superior in the biblical order) that is the same as a woman saying she is equal or above a man in biblical order. A man is to Submit to Christ just as a woman submits to a man. That is the comparison being made.

You are only one here totally obsessed with equality. I don't care.

No man in the bible is praised for constantly questioning God and His reasons for things. Men are praised for following God's will especially when they did not understand why (eg. Abraham being willing to sacrifice Isaac).

Maybe. But some did pursue answers and they did get.

 

[MemeFan]

I’ll take your word for it, but he does hide it well.

When have you fought entire forum here and supported unpopular stuff? You know something which takes balls.

I know what you don't have: Globulus maximus

 

[steve]

I already provided my proof.

So you just call it stupid instead od doing more laborious right thing: proving it wrong.

You didn’t provide proof of your assumptions.
The only law was that they couldn’t compel beyond the mile.