Interesting and definitely in need of further study. I admit that it has implications for how one husbands but it has no bearing whatsoever on how one becomes a husband which is what we're debating here.
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0: When does marriage begin? - Structured discussion
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Hey @Verifyveritas76 , I owe you an apology. As a brother in Christ I should have done just a little more study so I could answer you thoroughly. I was very remiss and I allowed you to continue in folly. Please forgive me. I committed the cardinal sin of focusing on one verse and not reading the verses around it. Once I looked at I Corinthians 6 in it's entirety instead of just verse 16, it becomes clear that God is talking about having sex with a harlot. Starting in verse 13 the passage refers to fornication, in verse 15 it references making the members of Christ the members of a harlot and in verse 18 it admonishes us to shun fornication. Had I not been so negligent in my study I could have saved us a lot of trouble and turmoil. Since we can say conclusively that I Corinthian 6:15-17 is clearly an example of a one flesh status being formed through sex we can now move on to the more germane verse in Genesis 2:24 and Matthew 19:5. I am very sorry I let that obfuscation and diversion go on that long.
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I would say that no one here is going to have sex, much less join a harlot. It would go against the idea of the family we each are trying to build in relationship to God as we each see it, at least on this forum. So, the point of all the references in the Bible have served there purpose. Joining a harlot, whether in sex or in life in general pulls one away from God. Certain women can do that, this is the point. Stay away from harlots. Works for me. The prohibition has worked.
However, for those who see that sex creates marriage, if someone told you they had sex with a harlot last night, and paid her and she left, what would you say happens now? What would you tell them? Do they need to be stoned? Do they need to go after her and make her submit? Do they have to write a divorce decree? Would you tell them they are going to hell? Or would you suggest they ask for forgiveness and go on with their lives but be more careful? (In effect basically saying, move on the marriage is over.)
If someone did have sex with a harlot, what happens next?
(It wasn't me)
However, for those who see that sex creates marriage, if someone told you they had sex with a harlot last night, and paid her and she left, what would you say happens now? What would you tell them? Do they need to be stoned? Do they need to go after her and make her submit? Do they have to write a divorce decree? Would you tell them they are going to hell? Or would you suggest they ask for forgiveness and go on with their lives but be more careful? (In effect basically saying, move on the marriage is over.)
If someone did have sex with a harlot, what happens next?
(It wasn't me)
As I was reading they the posts placed here, a question came to me. When the conversation of Joseph and Mary came up, we read about Mary being Joseph’s espoused wife. We also can read about a Virgin who is committed to a man for marriage and that the Virgin is off the market. The question I have, is there any examples of a non-Virgin who is off the market and under a covenant agreement with a future husband?
Just thinking out loud... is Joseph and Mary really the best relationship for us to be considering, while forming our opinions about what begins the marriage? Clearly they are an exception to the norm given the whole virgin birth thing... I’m not sure that her being called his woman prior to the sex taking place is really relevant... I think it’s best to look elsewhere.
Genesis 38 gives a pretty messed up story about that...
Genesis 38:8
[8] And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
Onan is told to marry her by going in unto her. Seems like sex is what formed this one... although from what I can tell the word translated as “marry” here specifically refers to the duty of a man after his brothers death ...
[8] And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
Onan is told to marry her by going in unto her. Seems like sex is what formed this one... although from what I can tell the word translated as “marry” here specifically refers to the duty of a man after his brothers death ...
Genesis 2:24
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Matthew 19:5
[5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Yes this appears to be talking about sex (shall be one flesh) but notice the first part of the verse also talks about leaving his father and mother... I see that as establishing his own family with her. It’s more than a one night stand...
@ZecAustin I also don’t think we can take a passage (or two parallel passages) in isolation we have to look at the whole council of God. The mono only crowd likes to take passages in isolation. Specifically Genesis 2:22-25 and they say “see God only made one woman for Adam that means it’s his original intention for a man to only have one wife” Let’s not be guilty of that same kind of logic... let’s all be humble enough to consider that we might be incorrect about this and give consideration to what other brothers are saying about the subject.
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Matthew 19:5
[5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Yes this appears to be talking about sex (shall be one flesh) but notice the first part of the verse also talks about leaving his father and mother... I see that as establishing his own family with her. It’s more than a one night stand...
@ZecAustin I also don’t think we can take a passage (or two parallel passages) in isolation we have to look at the whole council of God. The mono only crowd likes to take passages in isolation. Specifically Genesis 2:22-25 and they say “see God only made one woman for Adam that means it’s his original intention for a man to only have one wife” Let’s not be guilty of that same kind of logic... let’s all be humble enough to consider that we might be incorrect about this and give consideration to what other brothers are saying about the subject.
1 Corinthians 6:15-18
[15] Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. [16] What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. [17] But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. [18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
I don’t believe Paul is saying that visiting a harlot makes you married to her. I believe this is Paul warning men not to visit a harlot. And yes he references the same language as is used elsewhere referring to sex within marriage because the act of sex is supposed to be reserved for marriage. He saying that they are committing fornication as well as using sex outside of marriage.
One could also argue that he is warning against visiting a harlot because it will make him obliged to marry her... although that gets a little muddy because unless he is her first client ever she wasn’t a virgin...
[15] Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. [16] What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. [17] But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. [18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
I don’t believe Paul is saying that visiting a harlot makes you married to her. I believe this is Paul warning men not to visit a harlot. And yes he references the same language as is used elsewhere referring to sex within marriage because the act of sex is supposed to be reserved for marriage. He saying that they are committing fornication as well as using sex outside of marriage.
One could also argue that he is warning against visiting a harlot because it will make him obliged to marry her... although that gets a little muddy because unless he is her first client ever she wasn’t a virgin...
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Eh, I wouldn't say that it's possible to take two verses in isolation...but these two are foundational. We should be starting with these two.
And your take on the harlot passage leaves a lot of questions to be answered before we can apply it in our lives.
I 100% agree
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Genesis 2:24
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Matthew 19:5
[5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
To me these verses could easily be argued to mean that the one flesh being talked about is a family, a child, or at least the potential for procreation.
Are these verses actually describing the sex act of male and female sex organs? Really?
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Matthew 19:5
[5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
To me these verses could easily be argued to mean that the one flesh being talked about is a family, a child, or at least the potential for procreation.
Are these verses actually describing the sex act of male and female sex organs? Really?
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A big part, as in not always the case?
I would say that no one here is going to have sex, much less join a harlot. It would go against the idea of the family we each are trying to build in relationship to God as we each see it, at least on this forum. So, the point of all the references in the Bible have served there purpose. Joining a harlot, whether in sex or in life in general pulls one away from God. Certain women can do that, this is the point. Stay away from harlots. Works for me. The prohibition has worked.
However, for those who see that sex creates marriage, if someone told you they had sex with a harlot last night, and paid her and she left, what would you say happens now? What would you tell them? Do they need to be stoned? Do they need to go after her and make her submit? Do they have to write a divorce decree? Would you tell them they are going to hell? Or would you suggest they ask for forgiveness and go on with their lives but be more careful? (In effect basically saying, move on the marriage is over.)
If someone did have sex with a harlot, what happens next?
(It wasn't me)
This greatly depends on how you define harlot.
@Verifyveritas76 I'd really love to hear how you would phrase the meaning of the above. Not how you wouldn't define it, but what you take it to mean.
First, as @ZecAustin has pointed out, the immediate context both before and after is clearly talking about fornication (see v13 and v18). Secondly, I don't see where you get two separate statements out of it, it seems to be talking about one thing to me - which part of these verses relates to 1 vs 2?
Now, considering that context, let's look at the passage and consider the potential options for its interpretation.
1 Cor 6:15-17:
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
I have bolded the key words that we need to consider the meaning of.
Harlot:
Clearly includes a prostitute. However, Thayers lexicon states: "properly, a prostitute, a harlot, one who yields herself to defilement for the sake of gain (Aristophanes, Demosthenes, others); in the N. T. universally, any woman indulging in unlawful sexual intercourse, whether for gain or for lust:" So, if that is correct, this word includes any slut, any promiscuous woman, not just a woman you pay for sex. On the other hand, given the context of the idolatry of Corinth, and the clear spiritual nature of this passage, it could refer very specifically to a temple prostitute only. So there are three possible meanings to consider:
1) Any promiscuous woman (paid or unpaid)
2) Any paid prostitute (religious or secular)
3) A temple prostitute specifically
Joined
The two meanings suggested are
1) Sex
2) Marriage
One body / one flesh
Two different words for body / flesh are used, both emphasising the physical nature of this statement. This has been suggested to mean:
1) Sex
2) Marriage
3) Something else? @Verifyveritas76 suggested that joined = marriage, in which case this must mean something closer still, but I'm not sure what that would be.
Further, we know that marriage to prostitutes is not forbidden elsewhere in scripture. Priests were not to marry prostitutes, but apart from that marriage of prostitutes is never spoken against and seems to be encouraged (see examples of Rahab and Hosea). In general, marriage is the solution for sexual sin, and who more than a prostitute requires such a solution? It could be taken that we are all intended to be priests so all forbidden from marrying prostitutes - but that would mean that all prostitutes were now denied the possibility of a Godly husband, so that doesn't fit with God's nature. However, it may mean you can't marry a prostitute that keeps being a prostitute after you marry her.
I'm still pondering what to do with that, but I hope that it helps others to frame the issue a little more clearly.
@ZecAustin, what would you say to a man who had had a nasty accident and had his penis chopped off, but wanted to get married, and his girlfriend also intended to marry him? In this case, the intention and all of the action that is physically possible is there, it's not a matter of choosing not to have sex. Can they marry, or not? Are they married if they agree to be married and come together as closely as they are physically able?
Just asking the same question but a bit differently.
Just asking the same question but a bit differently.
There are eunuchs made by nature and there are eunuchs made by man. If two people chose to live together under those circumstances then that's perfectly okay but if there was no sex then they wouldn't be bound in a one flesh relationship.