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0: When does marriage begin? - Structured discussion
- Thread starter FollowingHim
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I think that @FollowingHim expounded on your question to make it more in prospective, however now bringing in eunuchs and oral sexs is opening the door in this discussion to gay marriage.
But, I believe that two people can create an earthly, or state marriage whatever way they want. A spiritual marriage is a little harder to define, and what I think the word of God is talking about to a large degree in this matter.
We are all looking to be the bride of Christ but I don't think any of us, particularly the males, think about having physical sex with him. The "knowing" talked about is much deeper than sex.
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I believe that each of the headings to define marriage most further be defined within the categories of spiritual and physical.
How do you figure? This sounds like some more of your unsubstantiated eisigesis.
The angel is differentiating between the Mary that was already his wife and all other Mary’s that weren’t his wife.
No I don’t know that.
The fact that you’re ignoring that she is not just any woman but the neighbors woman is pretty telling. You are cherrypicking the words you wanna acknowledge and ignoring them if they don’t fit your theory.
Check out the usage in the Ten Commandments. Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife (Rea ishah).
Even God himself calls her the neighbors wife.
On the contrary, I know that those are highly relevant and you just made my point for me. Every other place in Scripture without exception one flesh = marriage or family (when used between non spouses). And it’s never used for fornication, EVER!!!
Why would it be suddenly different in the 1 Corinthians passage? Did God suddenly change his mind about fornication and decide to make it acceptable?
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Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing b her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” c 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
The idea of being one flesh is about a woman joining a man, just as the church joining Christ.
To have a harlot join you is the same as not caring for your body, and the same as a harlot joining the church. Not possible. Or in the case of a harlot joining your body, not profitable. Trying to make "sex" the overall qualifier is a bit naive.
The idea of being one flesh is about a woman joining a man, just as the church joining Christ.
To have a harlot join you is the same as not caring for your body, and the same as a harlot joining the church. Not possible. Or in the case of a harlot joining your body, not profitable. Trying to make "sex" the overall qualifier is a bit naive.
Bless you sir. I hadn't picked up on this one.
Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife (paraphrase) sounds a lot like he hadn't done it yet. And while I don't know what eisigesis is I have yet to say a single thing not rooted in scripture. You may not think I got it right but its all based on scripture.
But as we've argued before there are different levels or statuses of being someone's woman. We spent a lot of time going around about it. A female can be considered a man's woman without actually being what we consider a wife. It's the betrothal period and its the only even remotely weak point in my argument.
Wow. I didn't realize you were coming at this from such weird direction. Since I've misunderstood you for so long let me clarify what I think you're saying.
You agree that the 1 Corinthians passage is indeed admonishing believers to not have sex with harlots and that joining is a reference to sex and one flesh is a reference to making a family? Are you saying that the verse is forbidding us from both sex with a harlot and from marrying her both?
I am very confused now. Maybe I should clarify my position. I consider it to be self evident that "one flesh" is referring to marriage. We are warned against forming a one flesh marriage with harlots. I am now no longer sure if you dispute that or not. It would help if I knew if you agreed that "one flesh" in this instance was referring to what we call marriage. If you do then all we have to do is figure out what "join" means and we're done here.
Or, we could just go to Genesis 2:24 and see how to meet the standard for one flesh there and then come back and apply that standard to the harlot.
Frankly I think we're wasting our time here and we need to go to passage where God instituted the one flesh.
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So I think you're saying that sex with a harlot is fornication so therefore it can not form a one flesh relationship. I actually get that argument but the problem is that the verse says that it forms a one flesh relationship so we have to figure out why.
May I suggest to you that what is the forbidden part, what makes it fornication, is when we as men have sex with a woman knowing that she is going to break the one flesh relationship and so free us from fulfilling our commanded role in her life. The "man" in this situation wouldn't be committing any sin himself but he would enter in to the situation knowing the woman would. Fornication would result from this situation. That may be unsupported eisigesis there. I.don't know, I haven't looked eisigesis yet.
We're going round and round in circles on this as usual.
@Verifyveritas76, what do "joined" and "one flesh" mean, individually, in this passage?
@Verifyveritas76, what do "joined" and "one flesh" mean, individually, in this passage?
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I agree with this but also add that if you knowingly have sex with a harlot (fornication) that you know will not amount to anything, how is that a marriage?
Genesis 38:8Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.
Apparently, Onan having sex with Tamar (married her?) wasn't the right kind of sex. There is a much higher purpose according to God.
Also,
Genesis 38 1At that time, Judah left his brothers and went down to stay with a man of Adullam named Hirah. 2There Judah met the daughter of a Canaanite man named Shua. He married her and made love to her; 3she became pregnant and gave birth to a son, who was named Er. 4She conceived again and gave birth to a son and named him Onan. 5She gave birth to still another son and named him Shelah. It was at Kezib that she gave birth to him.
Why the separation if 'made love to her' is all that is needed?
I’m definitely benefiting from it. Although I wish we could keep more calm in our disagreements... sometimes things come across more harshly in text than they would in person...
Remember guys we are all after the same thing here. We want to know the mind of God on the subject...
Another thought about 1 Corinthians 6 if Paul was saying that sex with a harlot makes the man married to her wouldn’t it also by necessity mean that it’s adultery (assuming you aren’t her first client) because she is married to the first man... but notice Paul doesn’t say that a man is committing adultery when visiting a harlot.
I still think the language being the same as is used for marriage is because he is cautioning the men not to use sex outside of marriage. It’s the only explanation I can find that fits with the balance of scripture.
Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife (paraphrase) sounds a lot like he hadn't done it yet.
@ZecAustin, the Greek construction tells us who Joseph was not to be afraid to take; i e. Mary his wife. She is literally "the wife of you" (the genitive personal pronoun indicates possession) and he isn't to be afraid to take her. Your paraphrase is not correct grammatically. A thought; you might find it helpful to look at the verse in a Greek - English interlinear Bible. Blessings and shalom brother.
@ZecAustin, the Greek construction tells us who Joseph was not to be afraid to take; i e. Mary his wife. She is literally "the wife of you" (the genitive personal pronoun indicates possession) and he isn't to be afraid to take her. Your paraphrase is not correct grammatically. A thought; you might find it helpful to look at the verse in a Greek - English interlinear Bible. Blessings and shalom brother.
Sorry I’ve not been able to keep up with you guys on this. My plate is overflowing right now with work and a rent house and family and a host of other things I call life.
One flesh is always either family or marriage.
Joined/ Cleave is by definition and usage a word synonymous with glued, stuck or bound.
I do agree that the phrase one flesh in 1 Corinthians 6 is referring to being married to a harlot. Something which the passage says God forbids. As we have multiple instances where a harlot has been married in the OT, I conclude that this prohibition is for being married to a practicing or currently active harlot. In each case in the OT especially Hosea, he makes the statement that she is to keep herself for him. So that seems to indicate that if she was a harlot and is now a changed woman, the prohibition does not apply.
To be married to a practicing harlot would be dishonorable to your covenant and His. OTOH To be willing to provide covering for a repentant sinner is IMO acting in the image of Christ.