0: When does marriage begin? - Structured discussion

[Cap]

I know we have had this discussion before, but I don't remember, is the idea of a marriage established with a contract AND consummation (all in relationship to God and His purpose) a valid thing in determining one flesh relationship?

 

[Edward]

I have not read every comment in this post so this could have already been brought up, I know I've read some just not all.

((((This is an edit I just went back to the first page and realized I don't think I've read anything and this particular post so I'm confusing this post with another one.))))

I would say Genesis 24 sets a pretty good example of what it should be in a righteous situation.

And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel. For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a veil, and covered herself. And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done. And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.
Genesis 24:64‭-‬67 KJV

No ceremony, no exchanging of vows, she hops off the camel goes with him into his mother's tent and the rest is history.

Now Torah does layout on how a marriage can come about, I believe most are honorable, but there are some not so honorable.

The one marriage ceremony that sticks out to me.

And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her. And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast. And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.
Genesis 29:21‭-‬23 KJV

Now I know it doesn't talk about a marriage ceremony but a feast. Now the question is did they have some kind of ceremony during this feast??

 

[steve]

I would say Genesis 24 sets a pretty good example of what it should be in a righteous situation

I believe that this verse encompasses a much longer timeline than people allow it to have.
A simple thing that was not included was that Abraham had commissioned the servant to find the wife, it would have been extremely disrespectful to his father for Isaac to take her and bed her without having even been presented to Abraham first.
Jewish lore is that she was younger than marriageable age and brought into Isaac’s mother’s tent to be raised in the ways of a Yah-worshipping family before the marriage occurred.

 

[Cap]

I have not read every comment in this post so this could have already been brought up, I know I've read some just not all.

((((This is an edit I just went back to the first page and realized I don't think I've read anything and this particular post so I'm confusing this post with another one.))))

I would say Genesis 24 sets a pretty good example of what it should be in a righteous situation.

And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel. For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a veil, and covered herself. And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done. And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.
Genesis 24:64‭-‬67 KJV

No ceremony, no exchanging of vows, she hops off the camel goes with him into his mother's tent and the rest is history.

Now Torah does layout on how a marriage can come about, I believe most are honorable, but there are some not so honorable.

The one marriage ceremony that sticks out to me.

And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her. And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast. And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.
Genesis 29:21‭-‬23 KJV

Now I know it doesn't talk about a marriage ceremony but a feast. Now the question is did they have some kind of ceremony during this feast??

But there was a contract.

 

[Edward]

But there was a contract.

I don't recall the passage saying anything about a contract.

I mean servant was commanded by Abraham, he went to where he needed to go, the damsel came out did what he prayed about, gave her earrings, bracelets, gold, went to her house, met her family, told them the whole story, next day they leave, Isaac walking in the field, she inquires who he is, the servant tells her, she gets off the camel and meets Isaac in the field, goes to Isaac's mother's tent, he consummates the marriage, end of story, but no mention of a contract.
So if you could would you please give me book chapter and verse on this so-called contract I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Cap]

I don't recall the passage saying anything about a contract.

I mean servant was commanded by Abraham, he went to where he needed to go, the damsel came out did what he prayed about, gave her earrings, bracelets, gold, went to her house, met her family, told them the whole story, next day they leave, Isaac walking in the field, she inquires who he is, the servant tells her, she gets off the camel and meets Isaac in the field, goes to Isaac's mother's tent, he consummates the marriage, end of story, but no mention of a contract.
So if you could would you please give me book chapter and verse on this so-called contract I would greatly appreciate it.

No verse, but it all sounds like the typical Hebrew betrothal contractual agreement to me. Hard to assume that some guy just decided to give some pretty heavy duty gifts to some cute tail and nothing come from it, accept a night in one's mother's tent. (Guess that's the first recording of a son living in his mother's basement.)

 

[rockfox]

@Edward @Cap The servant went to Mesopotamia. The giving of gold earnings/bracelet/nose piece, that was a traditional offer of marriage; by accepting them she consented to the marriage proposal. It is also quite possible that they had contractual marriage; depending on the time period it may even have been required for legal marriage.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

It also easy to confuse a contractual style marriage with a covenant style marriage. We tend to think contractual I.e. on paper. Most of them that I’ve seen in early civilizations seem to be more covenantal or spoken agreements with witnesses than written agreements.

IMO that’s what happened in Genesis 2:23. A spoken agreement witnessed by God and all relevant parties. Just like the Jacob/Laban covenant. Spoken but still very binding.

 

[steve]

There was a time when a man’s word was a contract.

Back before lawyers got involved.

 

[FollowingHim]

The most detailed description of ancient Hebrew marriage is in the book of Tobit, chapters 7 and 8. It includes much more detail than any example in the Protestant bible - the preceding discussion, written contract, interaction between bride and groom, prayer, consummation, feast. It's intertwined with a complex background situation (the bride is afflicted with an evil spirit who is cast out in the process), but that doesn't detract from the details given on the marriage.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

The most detailed description of ancient Hebrew marriage is in the book of Tobit, chapters 7 and 8. It includes much more detail than any example in the Protestant bible - the preceding discussion, written contract, interaction between bride and groom, prayer, consummation, feast. It's intertwined with a complex background situation (the bride is afflicted with an evil spirit who is cast out in the process), but that doesn't detract from the details given on the marriage.

I'll be darned. Thanks!

 

[rockfox]

It also easy to confuse a contractual style marriage with a covenant style marriage. We tend to think contractual I.e. on paper. Most of them that I’ve seen in early civilizations seem to be more covenantal or spoken agreements with witnesses than written agreements.

IMO that’s what happened in Genesis 2:23. A spoken agreement witnessed by God and all relevant parties. Just like the Jacob/Laban covenant. Spoken but still very binding.

Both are agreements between multiple parties. They're just recorded differently. Not really a difference between the two.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

The most detailed description of ancient Hebrew marriage is in the book of Tobit, chapters 7 and 8. It includes much more detail than any example in the Protestant bible - the preceding discussion, written contract, interaction between bride and groom, prayer, consummation, feast. It's intertwined with a complex background situation (the bride is afflicted with an evil spirit who is cast out in the process), but that doesn't detract from the details given on the marriage.

That’s also a good example of how the daughters inheritance was sent out with her in chapter 8

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Both are agreements between multiple parties. They're just recorded differently. Not really a difference between the two.

Agreed. Not that much different in practicality provided there was no point of separation or divorce. Especially for a free woman. The main difference I see is in how the written ketubah removes most opportunity for shenanigans from both parties

 

[Edward]

The most detailed description of ancient Hebrew marriage is in the book of Tobit, chapters 7 and 8. It includes much more detail than any example in the Protestant bible - the preceding discussion, written contract, interaction between bride and groom, prayer, consummation, feast. It's intertwined with a complex background situation (the bride is afflicted with an evil spirit who is cast out in the process), but that doesn't detract from the details given on the marriage.

I must admit is my first time ever reading anything from the Apocrypha thanks for the share. I downloaded it to my Bible app, now I have the Apocrypha on my tablet.

 

[Edward]

He knew what to do with a demon possessed woman before he came in unto her.

And as he went, he remembered the words of Raphael, and took the ashes of the perfumes, and put the heart and the liver of the fish thereupon, and made a smoke therewith . The which smell when the evil spirit had smelled, he fled into the utmost parts of Egypt, and the angel bound him.
Tobit 8:2‭-‬3 KJVA

The prayer after the consummation is beautiful.

And after that they were both shut in together, Tobias rose out of the bed, and said, Sister, arise, and let us pray that God would have pity on us. Then began Tobias to say, Blessed art thou, O God of our fathers, and blessed is thy holy and glorious name for ever; let the heavens bless thee, and all thy creatures. Thou madest Adam, and gavest him Eve his wife for an helper and stay: of them came mankind: thou hast said, It is not good that man should be alone; let us make unto him an aid like unto himself. And now, O Lord, I take not this my sister for lust, but uprightly: therefore mercifully ordain that we may become aged together. And she said with him, Amen.
Tobit 8:4‭-‬8 KJVA

Thanks @FollowingHim

 

[FollowingHim]

That prayer is awesome. But it's also the only time I can think of that religion is mentioned in context with a human marriage anywhere in scripture. I cannot think of a single example of even a quick prayer being mentioned anywhere else. And even the prayer in Tobit is something that Tobias and Sara choose to do just because Tobias decided they should, it is clear that it is not a mandatory part of marriage but simply them thanking God for the marriage that was occurring anyway and asking for His blessing on it.

Because the account in Tobit is so detailed, it also starkly shows what is NOT present - a priest.

The Apocrypha is awesome, and it is a tragedy that it has been entirely removed from Protestant use.

 

[FollowingHim]

This conversation sparked a very long conversation with an individual who claimed special spiritual revelation and superiority over the rest of us. Posts shifted here to keep this thread on topic.

 

[Van]

Jesus defined marriage as “what God has joined together” (Matt 19:9). But when does this happen? Mary was a virgin and betrothed to Joseph, and then later on, Joseph “took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her first Son” (Matthew 1: 18-25). This ‘taking’ is what we call marriage today. However, Joseph “did not know her,” he had no intercourse with her. (Note: Although our source text is in Greek, the word use in Matthew is similar to the Old Testament. Terms like “know her” and “went in to her” refer to sexual intercourse)

Intercourse is not equal to marriage in God’s eyes. It would mean that prositutes have multiple husbands (polyandry) which is Biblically impossible, since marriage is what God joins together and God would not join a wife to multiple husbands. If not intercourse, neither are a marriage contract, dowry, vows, etc. There are many examples of marriages in Scripture that do not include any of these. There is only one aspect that is present in every marriage in Scripture. The woman is given to the man, she becomes subject to him and he becomes her head. In the first marriage we read that “He brought her to the man” (Gen 2:22). In Scripture, a woman is married to a man, when her head (the father) is giving her to the man to be his wife; he is passing his headship over to the bride’s husband. It does not matter whether this is done with a public ceremony, or a dowry, or a simple giving (as with the first marriage). Widows give themselves (Ruth, Abigail). Interestingly, it is always the bride that moves towards the groom, whether he takes her or she is given to him. The woman becomes exclusively his own.

 

[Rachelle West]

Ok, I'm going to add my opinion in here. Don't dismiss is guys just 'cause I'm a woman and it seems simple. Often the bible comes back to simple and we try to complicate it. Like you're all trying to complicate when marriage begins. Same argument, all the time. And you're all wrong (sorry dear). You all think you're right, because you can come up with scripture to back up your viewpoint. There is scripture to say that marriage begins at covenant, sex, and possession. That's because all three are in play. You guys want to pick it apart to come up with the absolute starting point. But you're missing what marriage is.
Samuel had it, here:
That is marriage. Authority (possession), covenant, sex. They ALL make up marriage. You can't have marriage without all of them.
Now, I'm not saying there aren't responsibilities if you've done one of those things without the others. Say you've had sex with a woman but have chosen not to have a covenant with her, well then you have an obligation to sort out the rest of it, don't you? Obligation doesn't make marriage. Say you chose to have a covenant with a woman but never have sex with her (can't image why, but the same rules apply here), then you have an obligation to fulfil your duties and be married. Bible says you need to do that. You don't do that, you're sinning, doesn't mean you're married.
Is this making any sense? I'm typing this quickly because my baby is awake and wanting a feed, lol.
Synopsis. You're all wrong, and you're all right. Make it simpler, guys. YHWH made his laws easy to understand .

Can you message me about this please. I have some questions. I would rather not ask them in the public eye please.