501(c) status

[MemeFan]

Same goes for most of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. They are a "warning of potential danger. Which may not exist."

Or may get you killed. Who do you trust?

No you, certainly.

You are now comparing yourself with prophets anointed from Lord. Do you imply you consider yourself as one of them? It so, do you mind testing you as prophet and accepting punishement as false one if proven?

And prophets didn't speak of potential danger, but real danger. Not like, well if you do swimming maybe there are sharks. Nope, more like there are sharks if you go swimming.

Unless there is reasonable proof danger is real, you are talking your imagination. Here are some Bible verses for you.

Proverbs 28:1 - The Boldness of the Righteous

The wicked flee when no one pursues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion.

biblehub.com

Be brave instead of seeing traps everywhere (mark of fearful man!).

 

[OttoM]

There has to be room in your theology for people to be mistaken, for them to have gotten it wrong but being on a journey towards a more perfect understanding.

There is a difference between being deceived versus purposely suppressing and doing violence to the truth. The Creator knows who’s been honestly deceived, and whose purposely leading his people astray.

1 Chronicles 7:3-4

3 The son of Uzzi was Izrahiah. The sons of Izrahiah were Michael, Obadiah, Joel, and Isshiah. These five became the leaders of clans. 4 All of them had many wives and many sons, so the total number of men available for military service among their descendants was 36,000.

So the state wants to bring in foreign invaders that want to kill rape and destroy? Why put your faith in a politician when you have 1000 sons and grandsons to prepare for battle? What has putting our faith in corrupt politicians gotten us? Now imagine a hundred or a thousand Christian families like that. No wonder the state has bigamy laws. Isn’t that why the EgyptIan king ordered the Hebrew baby boys to be thrown into the Nile river? They were reproducing too fast, and became a threat to his state.

Likewise the Roman Empire saw how dangerous polygyny could be to their hold on power. That’s why polygyny was under persecution, and is still illegal in the western world. Spiritual warfare.

 

[The Revolting Man]

There is a difference between being deceived versus purposely suppressing and doing violence to the truth. The Creator knows who’s been honestly deceived, and whose purposely leading his people astray.

1 Chronicles 7:3-4

3 The son of Uzzi was Izrahiah. The sons of Izrahiah were Michael, Obadiah, Joel, and Isshiah. These five became the leaders of clans. 4 All of them had many wives and many sons, so the total number of men available for military service among their descendants was 36,000.

So the state wants to bring in foreign invaders that want to kill rape and destroy? Why put your faith in a politician when you have 1000 sons and grandsons to prepare for battle? What has putting our faith in corrupt politicians gotten us? Now imagine a hundred or a thousand Christian families like that. No wonder the state has bigamy laws. Isn’t that why the EgyptIan king ordered the Hebrew baby boys to be thrown into the Nile river? They were reproducing too fast, and became a threat to his state.

Likewise the Roman Empire saw how dangerous polygyny could be to their hold on power. That’s why polygyny was under persecution, and is still illegal in the western world. Spiritual warfare.

you have a flair for the dramatic that I recognize and appreciate. Articles of incorporation do not carry the spiritual significance you assign them though.

 

[Mark C]

Articles of incorporation do not carry the spiritual significance you assign them though.

Says the Almighty Moderator.

And none dare ask HIM to prove such a baseless assertion. But, idolatry is idolatry...

 

[FollowingHim]

Do not reverse the burden of proof @Mark C. It is your "side" of this argument that is proposing that complying with the US tax code is sinful. You need to back up this assertion. Don't expect others to prove a negative, you need to prove the positive.

I feel that a lot of this comes down to Christians being wimps. I certainly hear you @Mark C and @Earth_is-, and I've heard it many times before also, that some Christian pastors in the USA are too scared of prosecution to speak out against the culture and instead go along with it, whether it was with covid or LGBT or anything else. The way the IRS presents the 501c issue may well scare many Christians into compliance. This probably does have a real silencing effect.

But the silencing effect is because of the way Christians react to the IRS - in cowering fear.

My question is basically, is this fear grounded in reality? There are two parts to this:
- What does the actual law actually say?
- What do Christians actually get prosecuted for in practice? Most importantly, do Christian churches actually lose their charitable status for teaching counter-cultural traditional messages for instance, rather than just going along with secular culture? Is this real or a baseless fear?

I feel that both sides are living in fear. Certain established churches are so scared of the government that they go along with everything for fear of losing charitable status. And certain independent Christians are so scared of the government that they avoid claiming tax rebates at all out of the exact same fear. The same fear has infected both the anti-501c crowd and the megapastors.

What's the worst that can happen anyway? You lose charitable status? You can't claim tax rebates any more? Well, that's the same as if you never claimed tax rebates to begin with. So claim tax rebates until they say you can't do it any more. 99% probability they'll never get around to it anyway.

It reminds me of covid. Our government had restrictions on meetings with >100 people. Our church debated what to do, whether to keep having Sunday services (which sometimes were higher than 100 people depending on who turned up), or switch to home fellowships. I pointed out that the law wasn't even being enforced (there were protests of thousands of people in the streets every weekend which happened without incident), so there was nothing to be scared of, just keep meeting until a cop knocks on the door and deal with it then if it ever happens, which is unlikely. But the church, out of fear, chose to stop Sunday worship services. They could have just continued, but pre-emptively shut themselves down.

Just as churches could continue claiming tax rebates, but @Mark C and @Earth_is- are saying instead they should pre-emptively stop claiming tax rebates and force their congregations to give more money to the government. Because that's the end result. You think the government is so evil that you want us to give them even more money out of fear!

We should not live in fear. Nor should we give more money to an evil government than we can possibly avoid, and should use every tax loophole available to keep our funds out of the claws of the authorities and in the Kingdom.


If the government truly does not want churches to be able to claim tax rebates, to get more tax money from Christians, and you choose not to claim tax rebates, you are doing exactly what the government wants. You are submitting to and financially supporting an evil government.

 

[Mark C]

It is your "side" of this argument that is proposing that complying with the US tax code is sinful.

Dammit, Samuel, I sure wish you would READ what I actually say rather than making $#!t up!

You insist on putting crap in there!

I have never, EVER said anything even remotely like that. No, dammit, NO!

All I have EVER said here is that you had better understand the deal, the 'strings attached,' and the consequences.

"IF YHVH be God, then serve Him, but if Baal be god then serve [it]." If a 'church' agrees to be a creation of the State, then it had better do what it agreed to do!!!

In fact, I say the opposite: IF YOU AGREE to DO something you had better do it!

AGAIN - since it seems to be ignored: All I have EVER said here is that you had better understand the deal, the 'strings attached,' and the consequences.

And the State Sycophants keep saying, 'pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.'

Some of 'em don't even know what the words even mean to those who may well take them to task anyway.

But you/they say stupid stuff, like "the burden of proof" is on you who actually take Yahuah at His Word. It seems like you do fear Something Else more than Him.

Fine - make your choice. But don't say He didn't warn you. And before YOU say, again, that I can't understand, much less "teach" His Word: Great. Be like the Bereans. (And I could - and have! - made the case from Scripture, but that gets censored outside of the Ghetto.)

The way the IRS presents the 501c issue may well scare many Christians into compliance. This probably does have a real silencing effect.

Duh. Just like the Heavy Hand in this very forum probably - likewise - scares some into silence. "How much more so," then, those who not only ignore "Law" - but elections, too?

Riddle me this: (And you ALMOST said it. And while you evidently have 'incorporated' churches, I don't know what the tax hammer is Down Under. But I'm sure it's "scary.")

"Churches" told their sheeple that they "had better comply and take the Wonderful, albeit untested, Vaccine!" And they did. The sheep lined up for slaughter. Many are now permanently disabled, or dead. And the Moderators of Truth down there said "the Burden of Proof is on those who are Vaccine Deniers! SO COMPLY."

I simply urged caution, then and now. And before I allow those I love to submit to The Needle that MAY just kill them, but SURE as HELL hasn't been tested (and as an engineer, I DO know what that means!) - I said 'no.' Just like I say 'no' to their 'license.' Maybe I just don't trust 'em.

AGAIN: Do as you like. I clearly can't stop you, or convince you. The shofar has been blown. "You have your reward." Wallow in it. But don't feed me "burden of proof" BS.

Just as churches could continue claiming tax rebates, but @Mark C and @Earth_is- are saying instead they should pre-emptively stop claiming tax rebates and force their congregations to give more money to the government.

BULL$#!t! I defy you to show my ANYWHERE on this entire forum where I have EVER said any such thing!

Come on, Samuel. I have ALWAYS said, "come out of her, My people." I said I will NOT PARTICIPATE in a 501c(3) church. OR in the Whore Church, which often overlaps, but is NOT "identically equal to."

You can do what you want to. And Zec will ridicule those who even suggest that serving "another master" could POSSIBLY be 'idolatry.' And I could care less even if you two want to ignore any and all 'warnings,' and teach others to do so.

But I will not keep silent when you try to put words in my mouth.

The question - again, and as always - was Who do you serve? AND before you've told me I've said that before, I ask: Then WHY, oh why, won't you actually READ it?

We should not live in fear.

Not taking a Poison Poke is hardly "living in fear." Neither is not taking a license.

But doing Stupid $#it may have its own reward. Be my guest. I can't PROVE you shouldn't have done either.

 

[JudahYAHites]

The tax code is flesh and blood. The text you quote says we don’t struggle against it….

I thought the bold text would help.

The Torah of YAH is NOT a religious construct it is a governmental construct.

So we have to understand that we are dealing with governmental authority against governmental authority and as believers / disciples we ultimately come under the governmental authority of YAH [1 cor]

As seen in

Nebuchadnessars statue and the rock [Daniel]

and...

the power of darkness as opposed to the kingdom of MessiYah [colossians]

A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand [YAHushuWaH said it]

I think you get the picture.

At the time of MessiYAH and the Apostles walking the earth the Pontifex Maximus presided as a governmental authority over religious and civil organisational order from Rome across the empire

The Apostles were teaching customs which were diametrically opposed to roman law [acts]

The Pontifex Maximus (PM) gave permission and authority to the organisations that registered with them the rights to perform civil ceremonies like weddings, funerals etc.

Does that sound familiar ?

At the same time they would receive benefits from the state however their autonomy would be no more, as ultimately they would have to submit to the authority of the PM.
Just like multitudes of churches had to during lockdowns or face the consequences regardless of the fact that we are told not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. [hebrews]

The Pontifex Maximus was in power at the time of YAHushuWaH walking the earth and he never registered.

The Apostles after MessiYAH never registered, not one of them, and they are the foundation.

The fact that many on here would rather ridicule the notion that getting into an agreement that subjugates a fellowship to be controlled by the government is an ungodly move and position is sadly unsurprising to me.

The understanding of being holy and what it means seems to be without context here on BF hence there seems to be more debate than dialogue, and the desire to do personal research after being presented with information before responding with adhominems is nearly non existent.

So, if you want to believe that you are able to yield your members to obey anyone or anything else and still be a disciple of MessiYAH then prep for a surprise ending

If you believe that to find the straight and narrow way that leads to life is found being molly coddled in the arms of the same authoritarian setup that had the Apostles Peter and Paul executed then I would advise you to look at the many you walk in the company of because MessiYAH said only a few would find it.

I won't be going back and forth on this

I've done the research I know what I know and share extensively.
( I've actually given more information elsewhere regarding this on BF.)

Also @Mark C has shared cogent information on here but seems to be rejected because many dont seem to like his presentation style. Very interesting excuse to reject truth, though not very mature.

If you actually want truth you will go after it and bear the consequences of loving truth over lies when you receive the love of the truth.

It's quite ironic that though many on here have received the left foot of fellowship out from ministries due to the truth of polygyny, that the understanding of what is being presented here is so alien and incomprehensible.

Love the truth
Love on another
Love YAH



Shalom Love and Blessings

 

[The Revolting Man]

AGAIN - since it seems to be ignored: All I have EVER said here is that you had better understand the deal, the 'strings attached,' and the consequences.

And what you have been asked for is what deal? What strings? What consequences? You keep banging on about them but you won’t show us what they are or where they are laid out.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I thought the bold text would help.

The Torah of YAH is NOT a religious construct it is a governmental construct.

So we have to understand that we are dealing with governmental authority against governmental authority and as believers / disciples we ultimately come under the governmental authority of YAH [1 cor]

As seen in

Nebuchadnessars statue and the rock [Daniel]

and...

the power of darkness as opposed to the kingdom of MessiYah [colossians]

A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand [YAHushuWaH said it]

I think you get the picture.

At the time of MessiYAH and the Apostles walking the earth the Pontifex Maximus presided as a governmental authority over religious and civil organisational order from Rome across the empire

The Apostles were teaching customs which were diametrically opposed to roman law [acts]

The Pontifex Maximus (PM) gave permission and authority to the organisations that registered with them the rights to perform civil ceremonies like weddings, funerals etc.

Does that sound familiar ?

At the same time they would receive benefits from the state however their autonomy would be no more, as ultimately they would have to submit to the authority of the PM.
Just like multitudes of churches had to during lockdowns or face the consequences regardless of the fact that we are told not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. [hebrews]

The Pontifex Maximus was in power at the time of YAHushuWaH walking the earth and he never registered.

The Apostles after MessiYAH never registered, not one of them, and they are the foundation.

The fact that many on here would rather ridicule the notion that getting into an agreement that subjugates a fellowship to be controlled by the government is an ungodly move and position is sadly unsurprising to me.

The understanding of being holy and what it means seems to be without context here on BF hence there seems to be more debate than dialogue, and the desire to do personal research after being presented with information before responding with adhominems is nearly non existent.

So, if you want to believe that you are able to yield your members to obey anyone or anything else and still be a disciple of MessiYAH then prep for a surprise ending

If you believe that to find the straight and narrow way that leads to life is found being molly coddled in the arms of the same authoritarian setup that had the Apostles Peter and Paul executed then I would advise you to look at the many you walk in the company of because MessiYAH said only a few would find it.

I won't be going back and forth on this

I've done the research I know what I know and share extensively.
( I've actually given more information elsewhere regarding this on BF.)

Also @Mark C has shared cogent information on here but seems to be rejected because many dont seem to like his presentation style. Very interesting excuse to reject truth, though not very mature.

If you actually want truth you will go after it and bear the consequences of loving truth over lies when you receive the love of the truth.

It's quite ironic that though many on here have received the left foot of fellowship out from ministries due to the truth of polygyny, that the understanding of what is being presented here is so alien and incomprehensible.

Love the truth
Love on another
Love YAH



Shalom Love and Blessings

You’re completely ignoring multiple teachings, including those from Christ Himself, about cooperating with government as long as they don’t force you to violate scripture.

Christ literally says to pay taxes and is deliberate about paying His; and to the pagan Romans no less. While Caesar claimed to be a god. I think your study needs to take account of that.

 

[MarkH]

If non profit status is a blasphemy to you then you are a ridiculous caricature. 591c3 churches could absolutely teach the truth of polygyny. In fact they have. Hell, the National Polygamy Advocate trademarked his organization.

I am ordained by 501c3 organizations and I teach the Biblical truth about polygyny. I am unafraid and receive yearly "Letters of Good Standing" from my organization. I have not been threatened in any way. I also work within US government contracts and have not been threatened in any way. I am free to teach as I see fit.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I am ordained by 501c3 organizations and I teach the Biblical truth about polygyny. I am unafraid and receive yearly "Letters of Good Standing" from my organization. I have not been threatened in any way. I also work within US government contracts and have not been threatened in any way. I am free to teach as I see fit.

There you go. We have direct testimony from a 501c3 preacher that he is able to teach biblical truths unmolested by the jack booted thugs at the IRS. Case closed.

 

[JudahYAHites]

You’re completely ignoring multiple teachings, including those from Christ Himself, about cooperating with government as long as they don’t force you to violate scripture.

Christ literally says to pay taxes and is deliberate about paying His; and to the pagan Romans no less. While Caesar claimed to be a god. I think your study needs to take account of that.

.... you are obfuscating what I wrote and the topic at hand.

I clearly wrote

The Pontifex Maximus was in power at the time of YAHushuWaH walking the earth and he never registered.

The Apostles after MessiYAH never registered, not one of them, and they are the foundation.

The Pontifex Maximus is still in authority now under the guise of the pope, and has made clear declarations over protestant churches.

It is ironically hilarious that you bring up paying taxes when registering gives registered organisations tax breaks and tax benefits so is essentially the opposite of what Christ did.

Is registering mandatory? No.

If it is not mandatory why do it especially when Christ and the Apostles could have registered in the same way when they walked the earth but never did.

There you go. We have direct testimony from a 501c3 preacher that he is able to teach biblical truths unmolested by the jack booted thugs at the IRS. Case closed.

Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.

Rome’s Challenge www.immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003

“Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”

James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 edition), p. 72-73 (16th Edition, p 111; 88th Edition, p. 89).

Biblical truths aye?

Is obtaining a marriage certificate mandatory in marriage?

The appeal of the benefits of registration is the true driver this is not just USA it is worldwide.

Anyways I'm out.

Everyone chooses who they will serve.

I chose and still choose YAH

Shalom Love and Blessings in MessiYAH

 

[The Revolting Man]

If it is not mandatory why do it especially when Christ and the Apostles could have registered in the same way when they walked the earth but never did.

That’s not the conversation we were having. The conversation was about whether or not it was a sin akin to apostasy to incorporate under a section of the American tax code. Whether or not it’s a good idea, best practices or has potential pitfalls is an entirely different conversation.

Is it a sin, does it by itself completely delegitimize a ministry? And the answer to that question is clearly no.

 

[JudahYAHites]

That’s not the conversation we were having. The conversation was about whether or not it was a sin akin to apostasy to incorporate under a section of the American tax code. Whether or not it’s a good idea, best practices or has potential pitfalls is an entirely different conversation.

Is it a sin, does it by itself completely delegitimize a ministry? And the answer to that question is clearly no.

You've changed the subject of the thread,

Again....

 

[Mark C]

I know somebody who took the Poison Poke and did not die.

Therefore Big Brother is right: It MUST be 'safe and effective.'

Proof for morons. Case closed.

 

[MarkH]

I know somebody who took the Poison Poke and did not die.

Therefore Big Brother is right: It MUST be 'safe and effective.'

Proof for morons. Case closed.

It is highly disrespectful to strive to diminish another person's life experience. You need to check yourself.

 

[Mark C]

RE:

I know somebody who took the Poison Poke and did not die.

It is a factually correct, undeniable statement - even by Moderators.

It is highly disrespectful to strive to diminish another person's life experience. You need to check yourself.

I was debunking bad logic. That was the explicit reference.

I know people that DID die, too.

But when it comes to the lack of 'first amendment protection' - I have already cited MULTIPLE (that's more than one) examples of licensed pastors (three in Canada, two in the US, and I talked to them personally) who have been PERSECUTED for the stance of their church, and in several cases - jailed.

And the point is: I did not claim that ONE single case, or even MORE than one, in more than one country, constitute "proof." Others did, and then make the asinine claim: Case closed.

Grow up.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I don't get why some people here are so obsessed that 501(c) must be source of corruption.

So I don't see any special deal that church gets for "being state servant". So, no special reason why would they be forcing state ideology

Again....

Maybe you missed it but here’s the original post. @MemeFan asked why some people think 501c3 (I have come to despise typing that) is the SOURCE of corruption in the church.

Through all the hand wringing and histrionics and performative emoting one side of the argument takes, they can’t ever show why it’s a source of corruption. Why would it have a necessity always corrupt an organization to have non-profit status? They don’t have an answer.

@MemeFan please correct me if I’ve misunderstood your original post.

 

[JudahYAHites]

Maybe you missed it but here’s the original post. @MemeFan asked why some people think 501c3 (I have come to despise typing that) is the SOURCE of corruption in the church.

Through all the hand wringing and histrionics and performative emoting one side of the argument takes, they can’t ever show why it’s a source of corruption. Why would it have a necessity always corrupt an organization to have non-profit status? They don’t have an answer.

@MemeFan please correct me if I’ve misunderstood your original post.

Answer these questions you have your answer even though the answers have been given over and over.

1. Did Christ register his ministry under the governmental authority of the time?
2. Did Christ instruct his apostles to register the ministry he gave them with or under any governmental authority?
3. Who was the first to register with a governmental authority?
4. What Governmental authority authorised the first registered Christian ministry and when?
5. Are there any church writings mandating any ministry or minister to submit to the voluntary process of ministry governmental registration?

Voila

 

[The Revolting Man]

Answer these questions you have your answer even though the answers have been given over and over.

1. Did Christ register his ministry under the governmental authority of the time?
2. Did Christ instruct his apostles to register the ministry he gave them with or under any governmental authority?
3. Who was the first to register with a governmental authority?
4. What Governmental authority authorised the first registered Christian ministry and when?
5. Are there any church writings mandating any ministry or minister to submit to the voluntary process of ministry governmental registration?

Voila

But again, the question is will incorporation invalidate the whole ministry? We can identify a whole raft of things Christ never did, including getting married. That’s not the standard. Or the question.

Does non profit status unavoidably corrupt an entire ministry? And if so, why?