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General A use for Concubines?

Yes, I have a strong objection also to the idea that a "concubine" could be a temporary wife. Theologically speaking, sex is more important than that, it makes a marriage, and marriage is intended to be permanent.
And adultery carries the penalty of death, hence my twin obsessions with concubines and forming marriages.
. And practically/emotionally speaking, the very suggestion that the relationship is less than permanent may turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, for many reasons.
Also it could be an excuse for some pretty extreme abuses of the system, somewhat akin to Islam's one day marriages.
I understand the theoretical logic behind @steve's point that a woman who is not yet willing to commit permanently could be taken on without expecting her to commit permanently as a way of helping her move towards a better life, but I honestly think it is both unscriptural and likely to achieve the opposite in practice.
I can see it too, if you issue her a certificate of divorce, she is free to go. This is issuing her a certificate of divorce in advance. I'm not sure if that allows the man to remarry then though if she wasn't sent away for some fornication. I'd have to revisit Christ's divorce teachings with that scenario in mind. Even if it can be shoehorned into the text, I am very uncomfortable with the idea.
 
And is there a need for the subsequent to not feel like a, again for a lack of a better term, a guest in another woman’s house?
"Give each of them their own kitchen," is the best practical advice I've heard on that score.

It's not equally important to all women, I have come to understand, but the offer and option are definitely, at bare minimum, 'conversation starters.'
 
Does there come a point where the subsequent wife can be fully invested, for lack of a better term?

And is there a need for the subsequent to not feel like a, again for a lack of a better term, a guest in another woman’s house?
I certainly hope so, her becoming fully invested, or what the heck are we doing here talking about Biblical marriage! The rub is that the subsequent wife has to WANT to do the work that is required to be fully invested in the family she has chosen to join. @steve has described a few ways a subsequent wife doesn't do the work or that the first wife is a hinder to that progress. She might have said she wanted certain things but in reality, she didn't have the emotional ability to follow through. (I would say that this point is a warning to men to go slow and seek God on any woman they decide to take as their own and bring into their home.) Also, the man must help his first wife be in a proper mindset to help guide and teach a subsequent wife about the family "way" while clearly understanding that she will one day be fully invested, and that the first wife will reap the benefits of that.

Not feeling like a guest in the new family is something to talk about. If the subsequent wife hasn't spent much time with the whole family, I doubt you can escape this guest feeling. Making that shift to being fully invested involves the positive actions of the first wife and the direction of the husband to delegate things to her so she has a sense of usefulness and value. I believe that the understanding of the special gifts and abilities of the subsequent wife are revealed, encouraged and matured as the above is walked in.

Life with other humans is difficult enough to begin with so everyone has to be at least desiring to grow and mature in their part of the family. Unfortunately, we all come with so many fears and hurts that effect our ability to do this; this proves that only God can really make something good out of our weaknesses.

Writing this reminded me of a story I used to share at the Women's breakout sessions at earlier retreats. My husband is a computer guy for those who don't know him. He tended to do most of the computer searches or research. After he married N, he tended to ask her to do some of those things. I noticed this and got all bent out of shape about him not asking me to do it! So, he said, "okay, you go search for this or that (can't remember what it was)," Well, it ended up frustrating me too no end about how long it took me to find the information for him. I could hear God whisper in my ear, you don't have to be "great" at all things Julie, N can be great at different things than you. I never asked for that kind of task again! :-)
 
"Give each of them their own kitchen," is the best practical advice I've heard on that score.

It's not equally important to all women, I have come to understand, but the offer and option are definitely, at bare minimum, 'conversation starters.'
Multiple households then?
 
This is interesting to me. Mostly because my second wife originally asked to be my concubine exactly so that she wouldn't offend my first wife. Those who have been paying attention know where my second wife is from and will not find it strange that she also at that time offered to make her dwelling in one of my barns apart from the house. She pleaded with me every step of the way for me to be certain that I would not change the way I associated with my first wife for her sake. She explained that the guilt she would feel would be too much, and she would rather be alone than to cause another woman that pain.
💙 you picked a good one right there.
 
I was shocked when you said that women don't divorce men as much over cheating, because all the girls I know who have divorced were over cheating and abuse, because the two usually go together. If a guy is generally being immoral it tends to lead to abuse of women. However, I also thought about most of the girls I know who married. Most of them just married to get married. They weren't married because they loved the man, but because they wanted the status and they wanted someone to boost their ego. So if that is the reason they married I can see why more men would divorce over the issue than women. As for concubines I have no idea what they really are but if good men in the scriptures had them, it can't be bad! Personally I don't want to be one, but if the man I met and wanted to marry could only take me in as one I'd take it! I always thought of concubines as a wife in this life but not in eternity I have LDS eternity mindset which most christians don't have. But I can't say I know what it is at all. As for other comments in reference to the first wife, I agree in thinking the first wife is often a very special woman with a special place. She was his first and other women should respect and not subvert that. I do think that over time people can move up from whatever place she was so just so I'm clear with that. Personally, I would think that if God gave good men in the scriptures wives and concubines each of those women has a role to play that is necessary and a blessing for her husband. And we should just remember 1 Corinthians 12:21.
 
..the subsequent wife has to WANT to do the work that is required to be fully invested in the family she has chosen to join.
This is paramount and what I would be expecting to see if I ever considered a second.
(I would say that this point is a warning to men to go slow and seek God on any woman they decide to take as their own and bring into their home.)
Exactly what I've encouraged men to do... Take it easy. Take it slow.
Also, the man must help his first wife be in a proper mindset to help guide and teach a subsequent wife about the family "way" while clearly understanding that she will one day be fully invested, and that the first wife will reap the benefits of that.
Excellent observation and attitude.
Not feeling like a guest in the new family is something to talk about. If the subsequent wife hasn't spent much time with the whole family, I doubt you can escape this guest feeling. Making that shift to being fully invested involves the positive actions of the first wife and the direction of the husband to delegate things to her so she has a sense of usefulness and value. I believe that the understanding of the special gifts and abilities of the subsequent wife are revealed, encouraged and matured as the above is walked in.
This is beautiful and EXACTLY what Catie and I have been talking about. Any subsequent wife is going to inevitably feel like an outsider who doesn't have worth. There will always be a push/pull and that emotional magnetism can lead the new wife to lean on her obvious strengths and quantifiable "worth", namely the "new shiny toy" effect. The new exciting love and limerence will be the default fall back. This power dynamic will be tremendously threatening to the established wife who is much more likely to feel "ugly and old". It takes a great amount of attention to detail and careful handling to navigate those waters. Everyone must adopt an attitude of generosity and loving kindness towards each other to sail those waters smoothly.

I've walked with a few men through their venture into taking a second. Most struggle mightily with this kind of transition. Some of those marriages didn't survive it. We men must see the danger and have the foresight to begin the process of leading our first wife in this kind of matter long before it becomes a reality.
 
I was shocked when you said that women don't divorce men as much over cheating, because all the girls I know who have divorced were over cheating and abuse, because the two usually go together. If a guy is generally being immoral it tends to lead to abuse of women.
I think statistically women are more forgiving of adultery than men. This is not taking into account that the majority of divorces are initiated by women. But if you break it down to the adultery aspect, from what I've read, men are less likely to forgive than women. I think it's because women inherently understand that men who are capable of attracting multiple women are valuable.

As for concubines I have no idea what they really are but if good men in the scriptures had them, it can't be bad! Personally I don't want to be one, but if the man I met and wanted to marry could only take me in as one I'd take it! I always thought of concubines as a wife in this life but not in eternity I have LDS eternity mindset which most christians don't have. But I can't say I know what it is at all.
I think most people don't really know what they are because scripturally they're not well defined. But for those of us who believe scripture, a concubine is 100% a wife. The only quibbles we may have on the definition is the degree to which a concubine is a "lesser status" wife. In this day and age I think the term concubine is largely irrelevant. A wife is a wife.
As for other comments in reference to the first wife, I agree in thinking the first wife is often a very special woman with a special place. She was his first and other women should respect and not subvert that. I do think that over time people can move up from whatever place she was so just so I'm clear with that. Personally, I would think that if God gave good men in the scriptures wives and concubines each of those women has a role to play that is necessary and a blessing for her husband. And we should just remember 1 Corinthians 12:21.
Ephesians 5:25-29

Husbands are to love their wives, no matter if the wife is a first, or subsequent exactly the same. He should cherish each of them, nourish them just as his own flesh. They should be his earthly treasures and the delight of his heart. I can imagine a first will always have a special place in a man's heart, but from my observations, time softens even the starkest of disparities between first and subsequent wives. They all become treasures.

None should be subverting one another, everyone should be acting towards each other with brotherly love, kindness, gracious to each other. And the husband should be the one ensuring that communication is kept open and clear.

I've been kind of absent from the forum for a while with brief checks on things and a handful of responses. You should make an introduction post and tell us about you! Welcome to the forum, I hope you find some fellowship here and meet some good people. Some of my best friends were met at retreats through this forum.
 
Do you think that process might have evolved differently if you were elevated immediately to the same status as the other two wives?

Yes. The likelihood of failure would have been much higher. I think it would have been an insult to Shari and Christie for Steve to say I was their equal when I was just coming into the family and it wasn't yet certain if I'd see it through.

On that point alone I was not their equal. Shari had demonstrated her commitment to Steve and Christie had demonstrated her commitment to both Steve and Shari. With me I had serious doubts about everything including myself. Leaving was a possibility for me up until I got pregnant. Then it was a lot less likely. Then I found out I had twins coming and while I wasn't going to leave I also felt trapped. Looking back this was a good thing. It made up my mind for me and I had choices taken away from me.

So the new woman having a defined lesser status would ease some of that?

Yes. First is because it's realistic. If your first wife is still with you after you take a plural then her commitment is less in doubt than the plural's commitment. It's also a recognition of your first wife's commitment and it also takes some pressure off the second wife to measure up to the first one.

I know for myself I have a special kind of respect for real first wives because they've had to go it alone. I've never had to go it alone. There's always been support for me from the other women in the family. I think of trying to manage nine kids in Cody with Steve in the hospital in SLC and doing that alone! And so many women do this! That's amazing to me that they handle everything and manage the crushing responsibilities that they have in such situations.

I think of @Joleneakamama who has done so much for so long on her own before taking in a plural and I am in awe of her. I'll admit being a bit intimidated too. Who wouldn't be?

Yes! Don’t coddle anyone or try to smooth their path! This is so important for men to learn. I mean, concubines always have a use….

Pardon my putting these two comments into the same context but I believe they belong together. It also dovetails to Nick's comment:

As with all things, the question of whether or not a second should be brought along as a "concubine" or not is extremely situationally dependent. Some women might respond better to that kind of mentality. Others would suffer greatly at the thought.

I kinda understand how men roll with new women in the house. ;)

That's a reality and not a theory. Granted that a new plural may not be a 100% concubine boink bunny but to some degree she will be. That's normal. It's normal for a man to want to get to know his new wife and maybe even have children with her. Liberated women might recoil at being called a concubine at the outset but I bet most would also recoil at being taken for granted and not treated as someone special and new.

A plural family is not a convent and patriarchal men are not monks. Society doesn't approve of plurals and patriarchy and I just don't see any room to tolerate their rules and expectations in our families.

I feel a post coming on here.

I think that it seriously does bother them a lot - just not enough to actually divorce over it in many cases. It is truly a very upsetting thing for a woman who has been led to believe in monogamy culturally - but it is very upsetting simply because all her life she has been trained to find it very upsetting. There is not a core biological reflex underneath it. While when it comes to women committing adultery, that's just as culturally upsetting to a man - plus there is a core biological reflex underneath it that also makes it repulsive to him. The existence or lack of this core biological reflex is hidden under many layers of cultural programming, but yet it is still present underneath it all, and ultimately has a strong influence on the final decision in situations of adultery, even though those involved may not even realise that is why they made the decisions that they did.

You always amaze me with how you can pack so much into so few words! You truly have a gift! :)

I've done tons of reading about all of the above and here you come along and take tens of thousands of words and distill it all down to its essence. Bravo.

I'm going to start responding with the women committing adultery because a topic right here on BF led me down the rabbit hole of reading more and more on this subject. As I have read the common theme is of women who married nice, effeminate men who respect them and treat them well and then these women run off to find a manly man and they have an affair. This is a case of women getting what they want when they marry a man who will submit to them because such a thing is unnatural. Thus they're never happy with the guy who is so nice to them.

Then they seek satisfaction of their need for an actual man by seeking out the wrong kind of manly man who just wants an affair. Or perhaps they're suited to each other and they end up together.

I do think there is a core biological reflex under this where a woman might marry this guy because he's 'safe':

1704737106749.png

But when it comes time for her to feel that reproductive or mating urge she seeks out the guy who satisfies her biological imperatives:

1704737216194.png

The first man in IMHO designed to be revolted by all of this and he abandons the cheating wife and she takes up with the second guy.

On the other side of all this is the woman/wife whose man finds a plural or a mistress and she doesn't leave him. Because even though she might put on a show about how hurt she is she's also getting a lot of validation about her choice in man because the other woman likes him too.

From the other woman's perspective (been there, got the maternity dress!) there is something undeniably smokin' hot about the man who has more than one woman and who has had babies with them AND is committed to them! This IMHO is why so many women are attracted to married men.

The failure of the women who want the mono-married man is when they want what the first wife has. And they can never have that. I find it ironic that the other woman wants the trustworthy, loyal, and committed married man but the very second she takes possession of him all those qualities about him go POOF! and are gone. Now he's just a cheater and philanderer and that's what the other woman gets.

The poly woman will want what the patriarchal man has provided for his family and guess what? She can have it!

Building on what you said here poly squares with how God designed women.

This is why the process from "concubine" to "wife" for you was gradual. There was no point where you had to re-marry Steve to become a "real wife" - because you already were a real wife. But you were a wife on the lowest rank in the household. You gradually moved "up the ranks" among the wives, taking on more and more responsibilities. But from the start you were Steve's woman (wife) and he was your man (husband). You were just the concubine-woman. You eventually became the legal-wife-woman, which was a greater role with higher expectations. But all along you were his woman.

Nicely stated! (And thank you!)

People adding to their household should be patient and not expect someone new to be instantly anything. Time to learn, adapt, and get accustomed is reasonable.

Here is wisdom.

This seems like the danger, that the “concubine” is a second class citizen and is only a temporary fixture in the home.

Not if as Samuel says the role of concubine leads the plural into becoming a wife. In which case the role is temporary but the wife is permanent.
I agree that my opinions aren’t popular.
But they are an attempt to deal with a problem honestly.

Honesty is the best policy. Especially within your family.
Not feeling like a guest in the new family is something to talk about. If the subsequent wife hasn't spent much time with the whole family, I doubt you can escape this guest feeling. Making that shift to being fully invested involves the positive actions of the first wife and the direction of the husband to delegate things to her so she has a sense of usefulness and value. I believe that the understanding of the special gifts and abilities of the subsequent wife are revealed, encouraged and matured as the above is walked in.

Part of why over the years I have seen the wisdom behind patriarchy and especially quiverfull patriarchy. Speaking for myself, I stopped feeling like a guest (or interloper) when I had my twins. The girls were Steve's daughters and they were related to all of Steve's children. And now I had a bond with all of the kids and all of the wives and especially Steve. Granted, It took me more time to shake off my doubts and insecurities and anxieties but seeing everyone loving on my girls and loving on me for simply being their mother went a long way for me feeling a part of the family and not just a guest who might be asked to leave some day.
 
Speaking for myself, I stopped feeling like a guest (or interloper) when I had my twins. The girls were Steve's daughters and they were related to all of Steve's children. And now I had a bond with all of the kids and all of the wives and especially Steve. Granted, It took me more time to shake off my doubts and insecurities and anxieties but seeing everyone loving on my girls and loving on me for simply being their mother went a long way for me feeling a part of the family and not just a guest who might be asked to leave some day.
One of the things that has helped Catie change her heart about poly and rapidly, is that I made it abundantly clear that she belonged to me. She's mine, she doesn't get to leave because she's my treasure, I own her. There's a great deal of security in knowing you are possessed and "owned". If she is mine and I don't ever want her to be separated from me, the taking of an additional wife does not threaten her security in her position in my life. She will always be mine and that's all there is to it.

I've continued to reinforce to her that she belongs to me, and that continues to concrete in her mind that her status as mine is secure. She does not need to fear some other woman being "prettier" or younger, or better at whatever. I have chosen her, she belongs to me and she doesn't have the option to leave.

Just because I get a new framing hammer doesn't mean my old ball peen hammer is worthless and set aside. It has a beautifully polished handle, smooth and oiled from years of care and use. Each tool is treasured and useful, but I now have two hammers to pound with. The framing hammer might get some extra use for a while because it's useful, but for finer work and peening the new link in my chainsaw chain, I've gotta go with the older hammer 😜

Speaking of which, since today is rainy, I need to get my saw out and put together a new chain or three. It's a perfect day to work on something like that.
 
...Say "mistress", and they should hear...
...Which may be a far more accurate description than they would hear if you used the word "wife", even if the word "wife" is more technically correct.
I avoid using the term 'wife' in MANY situations because it is NOT 'technically correct." I don't have a 'marriage license,' don't want one, and my wives know why.

I guess when I think about it, 'concubine' is a far less offensive term than "licensed partner" or 'parent_2'.
 
The failure of the women who want the mono-married man is when they want what the first wife has. And they can never have that. I find it ironic that the other woman wants the trustworthy, loyal, and committed married man but the very second she takes possession of him all those qualities about him go POOF! and are gone. Now he's just a cheater and philanderer and that's what the other woman gets.
That is exactly why it seemed like an impossible dream. Most women want what I had, and that is just not possible, because as your "Poof" says, IF she takes him, he is no longer the loyal man he was. To have a polygynous family you have to find the rare gem of a woman that can see the beauty in the shared life.
The poly woman will want what the patriarchal man has provided for his family and guess what? She can have it!
But there are precious few single women who realize poly friendly first wives even EXIST, and fewer will meet one who's husband is willing to take on the responsibility....and appeals the single woman.
Part of why over the years I have seen the wisdom behind patriarchy and especially quiverfull patriarchy. Speaking for myself, I stopped feeling like a guest (or interloper) when I had my twins. The girls were Steve's daughters and they were related to all of Steve's children. And now I had a bond with all of the kids and all of the wives and especially Steve.
We have a cute little family connector here too now!
She's here because her mama felt at home, I'm the only one in the family she's NOT related to.....and I couldn't love her more if she was mine!
 
We have a cute little family connector here too now!
She's here because her mama felt at home, I'm the only one in the family she's NOT related to.....and I couldn't love her more if she was mine!

You're connected to Sierra through your children whom you both share with George. Your children are related to her baby and her baby is related to your babies. :)
 
That is exactly why it seemed like an impossible dream. Most women want what I had, and that is just not possible, because as your "Poof" says, IF she takes him, he is no longer the loyal man he was. To have a polygynous family you have to find the rare gem of a woman that can see the beauty in the shared life.

But there are precious few single women who realize poly friendly first wives even EXIST, and fewer will meet one who's husband is willing to take on the responsibility....and appeals the single woman.

We have a cute little family connector here too now!
She's here because her mama felt at home, I'm the only one in the family she's NOT related to.....and I couldn't love her more if she was mine!
You are related to your nieces and nephews, this is a closer relationship than that. We probably need to come up with a better name than stepchildren.
 
You're connected to Sierra through your children whom you both share with George. Your children are related to her baby and her baby is related to your babies. :)
I first felt connected to her when she seconded my high opinion of that man and commited to life with him. But it was awesome that she felt secure enough here to welcome children.
I only imagined this before. It still feels almost unreal at times.
 
You are related to your nieces and nephews, this is a closer relationship than that. We probably need to come up with a better name than stepchildren.
It's even closer then being a godparent when you are in the same home. I don't think a day has gone by in that little ones life that I wasn't there for. I have neices and nephews that I only see once or twice a year.
I love that little one's mom and feel she is family, so really I don't feel a difference in how much love I feel for each.
 
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