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BF Jan Newsletter and Patriarchs' Journal Vol 3 Iss 20 - Including PeteR's "Sharing article"

nathan

nathan

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This month in the BF Newsletter (yeah, starting the year out right!), which you'll find here, we linked to the current Patriarchs' Journal, which you'll find here.

Pete's challenge in his Sharing article (3rd article in) is worth discussing here.

Feel free to discuss Ms Heiligenthal's "Story Behind the Book" here as well.

There's retreat info in the newsletter as well, but you can find that elsewhere on these forums. BTW, just a reminder that if you used a legit email when you signed up for the forum, then you get the newsletter. If you didn't get it today, then a spam filter likely got it. Also: @yahoo.com addresses seem to bounce for Mailchimp a LOT of the time - signup for the newsletter again on our home page with a @gmail.com or other account.
 
From Pete's article...

But, what if you are a stable loving family with the means
and ability to “take the leap” and become the covering and
solution for some lady’s need? What if you have studied
the Scriptures and are convinced that plural marriage is
righteous and acceptable before God? Is it sin to then turn
a blind eye and “let someone else take care of the problem?” Is it sin to say, “I see it in Scripture, but I just can’t
do it?” At what point are we held accountable for ignoring
the needs of those around us?
Click to expand...

The scriptures speak of providing food, water, clothing, and emergency medical care; essential needs for bodily survival. Marriage isn't a bodily need. I don't know of any injunctions to marry single women in the scriptures (except for the case of having sex with a virgin); I trust you'll point one out if I missed it. A woman who finds herself without a covering can submit herself to a father, brother, "ex"-husband or elder to fill that need. You are under no scriptural obligation to 'save' her by signing up to be her husband; especially in this day and age when marriage is legally an anti-covering.

Some men are prone to feeling the need to save women, to play the hero, and to not have a clear head about what they're getting themselves into, to view women as victims and not conscious moral actors responsible for the results in their life, to ignore the downsides in situations or to think it can't happen to them or to think that they (or this women) are the exception.

But if her life is a wreck, there is a high likelihood it was because of her own choices and moral failings and that it'll spread to your family. Many of these women without coverings aren't victims in need, they're perpetrators who kicked the man out of their life, depriving their child of a father. Or virtue-less women with histories or issues that make it difficult for them to bond, to be successful in marriage, or to be truly able to submit to you in marriage. There are lots of single men. Sometimes there's a reason she can't find anyone to wife her up. It's not your responsibility to save her.

You often can't save those women, but you may well wreck your existing stable family, doing untold harm to those you have an actual responsibility towards. If you have a stable family your first and highest responsibility is their well being, not to others.

Now don't get me wrong, this isn't the case with every women. A lot depends on the individual details. I know it can sometimes be hard to find a woman willing to be a second wife. But be careful about who you add to your family. Don't look at her with rose colored glasses thinking it can't happen to you too. Understand that you'll be prone to thinking the woman you're considering is an exception when she really isn't.

I realize it is nice pro-poly rhetoric to point out the single women who can't find a man and to present poly as a solution. It tugs at the heart strings and men's instinct to protect. But if we do that while ignoring the root causes we're not going to truly fix the problems.
 
rockfox said:
There are lots of single men.
Click to expand...
While I would generally agree with much of what you have said, the reality is there are more single Christian women than men. And for those women who want a truly godly man, there is a distinct lack. This is a real problem that has been created by the promoters of the OMOW lifestyle and it is compelling some women to compromise and marry an unsuitable man. Unless a person (man or woman) is called to a single life, the biblical injunction is to marry and make babies. That, in the current Christian OMOW environment, is a serious problem for single women.
 
A stable family will not be wrecked by attempting to minister to someone who turns out to be a failure to thrive.
However, the warning is still important in that most marriages are not as stable as presumed.
Conversely, if you make it through the firestorm that is initiated by challenging the enemy on this particular battlefield, you will have one of the most stable marriages on this planet.
 
Thanks, gentlemen for your thoughts. @rockfox certainly there are caveats and great wisdom should be involved, but adding all of that and keeping the article within length constrains is a real problem. The major point I wanted to address is that too many, both men and women, see plural in Scripture, but don't/won't do it until the situation is perfect... Gotta be ready, perfect woman comes along, perfect circumstances, etc... tbh, we have this problem in our household. DW is comfortable and doesn't want change or any bumpy ride, so even though we 'see it' she'd rather not go there because _________________. [Insert excuse du jour.]

Is it now sin on our part?

So, the article is written as much to me/us to challenge us to think! Abba shows us a ministry opportunity that allows us to change someone's life, maybe more than one 'someone' if children are involved. Can we negotiate the price or limit His actions? Are we willing to sacrifice and if so, how much? At what point does our 'criteria for the perfect person' become a sinful limitation? When I consider it from this direction, I would guess that not only are we too limited in our vision, but a large percentage on this forum likely is.

Thoughts?
 
As a further comment, one of my ongoing prayers for my family and house is that the Father break our hearts for the uncovered. May He help us to see the need and not simply give platitudes while ignoring the real hurts and needs of real people.
 
Both husband's and wives have to understand that plural marriage is ultimately about faith. Faith that God will provide, faith to overcome jealousy, faith for patience, faith to be lead to places in a relationship that few other relationships can provide. Standing on the sideline waiting for the exact right moment to jump in, denies that faith.
 
rockfox said:
From Pete's article...



The scriptures speak of providing food, water, clothing, and emergency medical care; essential needs for bodily survival. Marriage isn't a bodily need. I don't know of any injunctions to marry single women in the scriptures (except for the case of having sex with a virgin); I trust you'll point one out if I missed it. A woman who finds herself without a covering can submit herself to a father, brother, "ex"-husband or elder to fill that need. You are under no scriptural obligation to 'save' her by signing up to be her husband; especially in this day and age when marriage is legally an anti-covering.

Some men are prone to feeling the need to save women, to play the hero, and to not have a clear head about what they're getting themselves into, to view women as victims and not conscious moral actors responsible for the results in their life, to ignore the downsides in situations or to think it can't happen to them or to think that they (or this women) are the exception.

But if her life is a wreck, there is a high likelihood it was because of her own choices and moral failings and that it'll spread to your family. Many of these women without coverings aren't victims in need, they're perpetrators who kicked the man out of their life, depriving their child of a father. Or virtue-less women with histories or issues that make it difficult for them to bond, to be successful in marriage, or to be truly able to submit to you in marriage. There are lots of single men. Sometimes there's a reason she can't find anyone to wife her up. It's not your responsibility to save her.

You often can't save those women, but you may well wreck your existing stable family, doing untold harm to those you have an actual responsibility towards. If you have a stable family your first and highest responsibility is their well being, not to others.

Now don't get me wrong, this isn't the case with every women. A lot depends on the individual details. I know it can sometimes be hard to find a woman willing to be a second wife. But be careful about who you add to your family. Don't look at her with rose colored glasses thinking it can't happen to you too. Understand that you'll be prone to thinking the woman you're considering is an exception when she really isn't.

I realize it is nice pro-poly rhetoric to point out the single women who can't find a man and to present poly as a solution. It tugs at the heart strings and men's instinct to protect. But if we do that while ignoring the root causes we're not going to truly fix the problems.
Click to expand...
Wow Pete....just to let you know ....that the gift that was given to me from above was not just for me, but maybe as much for her...I want to fulfill that mission...thanks for your bravery...you must have been something on the battlefield
 
Shaul said:
Wow Pete....just to let you know ....that the gift that was given to me from above was not just for me, but maybe as much for her...I want to fulfill that mission...thanks for your bravery...you must have been something on the battlefield
Click to expand...
Fear and trepidation are the companions I battle most often. ;) Your continual encouragement is immeasurably important. May Yah bless you and your tribe.
 
“The response from the Body of Christ is uniformly, “I’ll pray for you.””
Or:
James 2:16 (KJV)
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

Providing for their physical needs is just a start, in the context of the current discussion it would be be warmed, filled, and covered.
 
rockfox said:
I don't know of any injunctions to marry single women in the scriptures.
Click to expand...

I agree I do not think there is any specific injunction, but I think you could make a general case of men doing their duty.

For example, there was a girl in my grade school class growing up. She was a lot like Peppermint Patty from Peanuts fame. Good athlete. When choosing teams during P.E. she would be picked before numerous guys. Not really pretty or feminine. Loved children and ended up being a school teacher. Good and faithful Christian. Never married. She let it be known on Facebook that she was still open to getting married. I offered. She turned me down. I felt like it was my duty. Marriage is a good and noble thing. As Christian men we should be ready, willing and able to do the noble and good as much as possible, I think.
 
If women are obligated to be under covering, it kinda stands to reason that good men will need to accommodate them.
The command to “Be fruitful and multiply.” did not make it all that optional.

We are still coming from a monogamy with poly optional mindset.
 
steve said:
“The response from the Body of Christ is uniformly, “I’ll pray for you.””
Or:
James 2:16 (KJV)
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

Providing for their physical needs is just a start, in the context of the current discussion it would be be warmed, filled, and covered.
Click to expand...
This is one of the scriptures that "hounds me" when I try to make mental excuses. If He is my Elohim, my Creator, doesn't He get to call the shots? And so what if it doesn't line up with my plan? Am I faithful enough to let Him lead me from out of box after box? Don't get me wrong, it will be challenging. And there have been a few instances in my life that I have looked like a complete fool to my friends and family, but it taught me well and increased my faith and courage. I know we all want to be comfortable, but I don't want any regrets when I'm taking my last breaths..
 
steve said:
If women are obligated to be under covering, it kinda stands to reason that good men will need to accommodate them.
The command to “Be fruitful and multiply.” did not make it all that optional.

We are still coming from a monogamy with poly optional mindset.
Click to expand...
Double like.
 
PeteR said:
Is it now sin on our part?
Click to expand...

I just don't see how to justify calling 'not marrying a single woman' as sin. It's not in the OT; even Paul said it was better to remain single.

I remembered a second case of a Biblical injunction to marry: Leverite marriage. But we're mostly not talking about widows here.

steve said:
If women are obligated to be under covering, it kinda stands to reason that good men will need to accommodate them.
The command to “Be fruitful and multiply.” did not make it all that optional.

We are still coming from a monogamy with poly optional mindset.
Click to expand...

As I pointed out, there are multiple options for her being under a covering (such as her father) that don't entail you marrying her.

Now 'be fruitful and multiply', that's a good counter argument (and the third injunction to marry; but it only goes as far as monogamy and as Paul points out, not strictly mandatory). But I'd wonder, how many single men did she say 'no thanks' to as cnystrom pointed out? The responsibility isn't all on the man, esp when he's already got a house full of children.

If there are any single men in the church that she turned down, how is the sin on me for not making her my second wife? Isn't it actually on her for turning down other options?

frederick said:
While I would generally agree with much of what you have said, the reality is there are more single Christian women than men. And for those women who want a truly godly man, there is a distinct lack. This is a real problem that has been created by the promoters of the OMOW lifestyle and it is compelling some women to compromise and marry an unsuitable man. Unless a person (man or woman) is called to a single life, the biblical injunction is to marry and make babies. That, in the current Christian OMOW environment, is a serious problem for single women.
Click to expand...

That's not strictly a problem caused by OMOW. Why are their more women than men? Christians have kids in 50:50 rations same as everyone else (more or less). A lot of this I would put down to the church driving men away, plus a tendency of late 20s women going to church looking for Mr. Right after a decade of fornication. If the church embraced authentic truth over cliche's and false traditions while de-feminizing the Gospel and preaching repentance the sex ratio would likely balance out.

Information for the data geeks out there:

https://ifstudies.org/blog/sex-rati...-really-a-deficit-of-men-in-american-churches
https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/gender-composition/
 
@rockfox, your NIMBY attitude is very frustrating to deal with. Maybe, for whatever reason, a second wife does not belong in your household. But your continued arguments for no males to feel any responsibility for the single women are just arguments for the status quo.
THE STATUS QUO ISN’T WORKING!

How about some positive answers to the situation that don’t involve blaming the women for the present reality?
 
rockfox said:
Now 'be fruitful and multiply', that's a good counter argument (and the third injunction to marry; but it only goes as far as monogamy
Click to expand...
Says who?
Where in Scripture does it say that you have been fruitful enough when you have taken one wife?
If a farmer has three fields available and he only plants one, is he being fruitful?

Paul’s statements are completely counter to the rest of Yah’s instructions and must be seen as an anomaly, not as an option.
 
steve said:
Paul’s statements are completely counter to the rest of Yah’s instructions and must be seen as an anomaly, not as an option.
Click to expand...
I really believe that Paul was offering some pragmatic advice for how to operate in the diaspora while under persecution. I think his expectation was that the restoration was on and singleness was a temporary measure.
 
PeteR said:
I really believe that Paul was offering some pragmatic advice for how to operate in the diaspora while under persecution. I think his expectation was that the restoration was on and singleness was a temporary measure.
Click to expand...
I agree, and that is why we cannot assume that it is optional for us.
 
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