BF Jan Newsletter and Patriarchs' Journal Vol 3 Iss 20 - Including PeteR's "Sharing article"

[frederick]

Why are their more women than men? Christians have kids in 50:50 rations same as everyone else (more or less).

I think you and I are referring to two different things. I am referring to there being more Christian women than men while you are referring to the numbers in the buildings.

Let me explain. It's the same kind of a situation as Paul refers to in 1 Cor. 1:26 where he points out that "not many wise according to the flesh, not many powerful, not many of nobel birth" were called. God has saved more of the 'lower class' folks than the wise, powerful, nobel people so that's why there are more of them who are Christians. It appears that the number of women God saves is more than the number of men hence, more truly godly women than men. A question that has been running around in my head in regard to this is; since God Himself is polygamous, has He provided the means for Christian men and women to demonstrate this aspect of His nature through polygamous marriages? If He didn't provide more Christian women than men, this would be impossible in light of the command to have sex with one's own spouse to avoid sexual immorality. The OMOW proponents of marriage can't demonstrate, in a real and practical way, that aspect of God's character but polygamists can. My thinking is getting to the place where OMOW Christians misrepresent the very nature and character of the God they claim to worship, especially when there are single Christian women wanting to marry but are prevented by the (perceived) lack of Christian men.

 

[steve]

Why are their more women than men? Christians have kids in 50:50 rations same as everyone else (more or less)

This has been discussed in other places on this site.
One thing is that males participate in more risky behavior than do females and by the late teens there are a few males missing.
The bigger problem is that too many males should not be entrusted with the leadership of a family. Are any and all professing Christian boys acceptable to you as husbands for your daughter (I am assuming that you have at least one), or do you have standards? In today’s world, not all males are men.
Some guys have problems with a work ethic, addiction, anger issues, some church attendees just plain do not walk in righteousness. No female should be handed off to them, covering is a much more serious issue than people recognize.
Many times the reason for single motherhood is that girls were allowed to fall in love with a rascal who failed to grow into the leadership position that he was given. Yes, Yah hates divorce, But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

 

[rockfox]

I think you and I are referring to two different things. I am referring to there being more Christian women than men while you are referring to the numbers in the buildings.

Let me explain. It's the same kind of a situation as Paul refers to in 1 Cor. 1:26 where he points out that "not many wise according to the flesh, not many powerful, not many of nobel birth" were called. God has saved more of the 'lower class' folks than the wise, powerful, nobel people so that's why there are more of them who are Christians. It appears that the number of women God saves is more than the number of men hence, more truly godly women than men.

On what do you base the contention that there are more Christian women than men, more truly Godly women than men?

A question that has been running around in my head in regard to this is; since God Himself is polygamous, has He provided the means for Christian men and women to demonstrate this aspect of His nature through polygamous marriages? If He didn't provide more Christian women than men, this would be impossible in light of the command to have sex with one's own spouse to avoid sexual immorality. The OMOW proponents of marriage can't demonstrate, in a real and practical way, that aspect of God's character but polygamists can. My thinking is getting to the place where OMOW Christians misrepresent the very nature and character of the God they claim to worship, especially when there are single Christian women wanting to marry but are prevented by the (perceived) lack of Christian men.

A 5 year age disparity between men and women plus large families will provide for plenty of poly opportunities; even with a 50:50 sex ratio in same age Christians. The first lends itself to patriarchy and the second to fulfilling the command to be fruitful and multiply.

One thing is that males participate in more risky behavior than do females and by the late teens there are a few males missing.

Which is why there are slightly more men born than women. I looked up the census data, there isn't much of a gap in numbers of men vs women in the 20's age range (and in one year the gap is reversed IIRC). But there is a very large gap in church attendance (in most churches, some sects are fairly even, and 1 has more men than women).

 

[PeteR]

On what do you base the contention that there are more Christian women than men, more truly Godly women than men?

Not sure where you are getting your stats, but in the Messianic/Torah groups I'm familiar with, the single ladies far out number the single men....circumstantial, yes, but that's boots on the ground. And, poly awareness is growing in that arena, as well....

 

[rockfox]

Not sure where you are getting your stats, but in the Messianic/Torah groups I'm familiar with, the single ladies far out number the single men....circumstantial, yes, but that's boots on the ground. And, poly awareness is growing in that arena, as well....

I posted links to my stats above, and they cover many different sects. I don't recall if they covered Torah groups.

 

[rockfox]

Says who?
Where in Scripture does it say that you have been fruitful enough when you have taken one wife?
If a farmer has three fields available and he only plants one, is he being fruitful?

Paul’s statements are completely counter to the rest of Yah’s instructions and must be seen as an anomaly, not as an option.

How many children must a man have to fulfill the command? As many as he can pull off? Some other number? Is it up to him to decide how many? What determines how many?

Do I have a choice in whom I marry or am I obligated to marry a single woman in my church if there are none other who will? If a woman wants to marry me, but has turned down single men in our congregation capable of being her husband, must I marry her? If it is wrong for me to turn her down, how is it not wrong for her to turn them down?

I really believe that Paul was offering some pragmatic advice for how to operate in the diaspora while under persecution. I think his expectation was that the restoration was on and singleness was a temporary measure.

What do you mean by restoration?

Can you not see the rise of persecution today?

How about some positive answers to the situation that don’t involve blaming the women for the present reality?

What's wrong with calling on women to repent? It is women who are choosing to delay marriage. You won't fix the present reality if you don't deal with women's partial responsibility in creating it.

Are not single women moral actors in their own life? Are they not liberated and in control of their decisions? Why if it goes badly for them are the other men at fault for not making them their wife?

How is the church turning away from false teachings and towards the truth in order to fix the sex disparity in church attendance not a positive answer?

THE STATUS QUO ISN’T WORKING!

Blaming men for the failures of women IS the status quo.

The bigger problem is that too many males should not be entrusted with the leadership of a family. Are any and all professing Christian boys acceptable to you as husbands for your daughter (I am assuming that you have at least one), or do you have standards?

Are all women to be entrusted with membership in a family? Esp. given their disproportionate ability to destroy it? Or is it only men you hold to standards?

girls were allowed to fall in love with a rascal

So you support arranged marriage then?

Many times the reason for single motherhood is that girls were allowed to fall in love with a rascal who failed to grow into the leadership position that he was given. Yes, Yah hates divorce, But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

She choose to have sex with him. 1 Peter 3 commands such women to remain in their marriage and win him to the faith by her submission. Yet you excuse her disobedience, fornication and divorce, blaming it all on men.

Over and over you refuse to hold women responsible for their own actions. This is exactly what the church at large does, blaming men while excusing women. This is a big part of the present problem behind why women sin with impunity and men avoid church.

 

[frederick]

On what do you base the contention that there are more Christian women than men, more truly Godly women than men?

To a certain degree, like @PeteR said, it's what is evident in the assemblies of those who are more likely to be genuine Christians as opposed to those in the liberal religiosity groups; boots on the ground. For many years men serving as shepherd-teachers have expressed their concerns about the number of women in the assemblies unable to find suitable husbands. I've never been at a meeting or conference where there has been any concern for men unable to find a wife; not one. The stats I've looked at re men and women in churches don't differentiate between those who are genuine Christians and those who are churchians. Certainly, as I've traveled and been among different groups, unless it's been a men's meeting, there is always a majority of females to males. Hope that helps. Cheers

 

[steve]

Dadgum, @rockfox
Overarching generalities while blaming the women.
At least you are consistent.


Btw, where women are genuinely out of balance, it is male leadership that has allowed it.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Btw, where women are genuinely out of balance, it is male leadership that has allowed it.

I see your point @steve, but it is a real and huge problem that women are excused and supported in leaving their husbands. It's kind of like churches that want to be "open and affirming" of homosexuals. We do the sinner a disservice in accepting them as is and basically affirming the sin.
Yes, Yah did put the responsibility on men to raise, cover, and control women and their influence in society, but that does not translate to personal responsibility of a man for the whole mess, but mankind in general. A man is responsible for those under his authority. Most men don't even have their wife under their authority.....so they have practically no influence on the current trend.

 

[The Revolting Man]

The parable of the talents had some broad application on how many children to have.

 

[steve]

As always, balance is found between the extremes.
Neither ditch is reasonable.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Which is why there are slightly more men born than women. I looked up the census data, there isn't much of a gap in numbers of men vs women in the 20's age range (and in one year the gap is reversed IIRC). But there is a very large gap in church attendance (in most churches, some sects are fairly even, and 1 has more men than women).

China's one-child policy has contributed greatly to the imbalance of males to females, as has female infanticide in India. The excess men spill over to the rest of the world, in the global society in which we live. Wars that have been going on in Afghanistan and dealing with ISIS, have thinned out the number of men on both sides of the conflict, but the polygamy that is permitted on their side, has allowed their women to find husbands. What if we were the ones marrying the single women that come from there? I like the concept that only godly men should be able to find a wife or two and reproduce. In one generation, we could see people all over the world, turn to God, as those who reject Him, gradually die off.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Some men are prone to feeling the need to save women, to play the hero, and to not have a clear head about what they're getting themselves into, to view women as victims and not conscious moral actors responsible for the results in their life, to ignore the downsides in situations or to think it can't happen to them or to think that they (or this women) are the exception.

But if her life is a wreck, there is a high likelihood it was because of her own choices and moral failings and that it'll spread to your family. Many of these women without coverings aren't victims in need, they're perpetrators who kicked the man out of their life, depriving their child of a father. Or virtue-less women with histories or issues that make it difficult for them to bond, to be successful in marriage, or to be truly able to submit to you in marriage. There are lots of single men. Sometimes there's a reason she can't find anyone to wife her up. It's not your responsibility to save her.

I will add, and I know this sounds like victim blaming, but in many cases, women are married to abusive men, but they themselves are button pushers. There are some abusive men, who need no provocation to beat their wives, and one would think this should be evident before the marriage, but I can only speculate on that. I do know that when young men use steroids, it does tricky things with their minds. There are other men however, who when pushed too far, don't have the patience to restrain themselves. This is not in any way, an attempt to justify their actions, but rather, it is an attempt to point out, that for those men, some of the responsibility for their reactions does lie at the feet of the one who pushed them over the edge.

 

[frederick]

I do know that when young men use steroids, it does tricky things with their minds.

That's a good point as it is well known that steroid use causes aggression and their use is common among sportsmen. The same goes for some popular narcotics which again are common, but with men and women. I would hope that Christians, men and women, would stay away from that stuff but the effects may linger for a long time if someone had been using and then stopped after being saved. Worth keeping in mind when looking at a potential spouse.

 

[rockfox]

To a certain degree, like @PeteR said, it's what is evident in the assemblies of those who are more likely to be genuine Christians as opposed to those in the liberal religiosity groups; boots on the ground. For many years men serving as shepherd-teachers have expressed their concerns about the number of women in the assemblies unable to find suitable husbands. I've never been at a meeting or conference where there has been any concern for men unable to find a wife; not one. The stats I've looked at re men and women in churches don't differentiate between those who are genuine Christians and those who are churchians. Certainly, as I've traveled and been among different groups, unless it's been a men's meeting, there is always a majority of females to males. Hope that helps. Cheers

It's all too subjective. What's a genuine Christian? When I visit churches where they hold more closely to the Bible, I don't see what you see.

I've never been at a meeting or conference where there has been any concern for men unable to find a wife; not one.

That's because the church has been feminized, it only cares about women's feelings. They're totally out of touch with men.

The parable of the talents had some broad application on how many children to have.

True, I've had that thought. I'm really good with children. I'd like to have more children with a second wife.

But do you think I'm obligated to any available women wants me? Or can I be selective?

Btw, where women are genuinely out of balance, it is male leadership that has allowed it.

Well at least you consistently blame men for all women's failings.

Overarching generalities while blaming the women.

I blame women AND men. You only object to the blaming women part.

Your attitude is a great example of why men stay away from churches and why I've found them to be toxic to marriages.

 

[frederick]

That's because the church has been feminized, it only cares about women's feelings. They're totally out of touch with men.

The "church" you refer to is not the Church Jesus Christ is building (c.f. Matt. 16:18). Jesus Christ is totally in touch with men and women.

 

[frederick]

What's a genuine Christian?

Someone who is a disciple of Jesus Christ. Acts 11:26 And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
You equate religious churchians with Christians whereas I seek to maintain a clear distinction.

 

[rockfox]

Someone who is a disciple of Jesus Christ. Acts 11:26 And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
You equate religious churchians with Christians whereas I seek to maintain a clear distinction.

The remnant you speak of is small and disperse. One cannot know how many, where at or in what ratio the sexes are. If I attend a public 'Christian' worship, I don't really expect to find many true disciples of Christ. Such people are run out of such places.

 

[frederick]

One cannot know how many, where at or in what ratio the sexes are.

Then there is little point in your posting stats.
In the parable of the Sower (cf. Matt. 13:3-9) Jesus illustrated that the seed that fell on the good soil always brought forth a crop. He explained His parable in v:18-23 pointing out there is always fruit but the amount may vary (cf. v23). In light of that, I'll stick with the boots on the ground evidence and we'll leave it there. Cheers

 

[rockfox]

If you're seeing this and haven't read the newsletter or Journal please do, they're well worth your time.

I ran across this passage today from Psalm 68 and it brought to mind Pete's article.

A father of the fatherless, a defender of widows,
Is God in His holy habitation.
God sets the solitary in families;
He brings out those who are bound into prosperity;
But the rebellious dwell in a dry land.

Solitary, also translated lonely. Men aren't put in families, they build them; same for monogamous wives. Neither are children solitary, they are born into families. This passage is speaking of polygamy, of putting the lonely into ready made families. Polygamy is God's solution for single women.

Although when I read the bolded part in context I found it's not speaking of single women but widows and orphans. Traditionally never-married women were not the ones who were seen as lonely, but widows. It is not normal for there to be so many single women; in former times they'd marry young, quickly, right out of the home.

But I think this verse can still apply to the many single Christian women, particularly those who delayed marriage and are facing loneliness. God's solution for the lonely is still polygamy. However, make sure you aren't imbibing in rebellion against God and His ways; or your end will be desolation.

I also think the polygamy is the ideal solution for widows. Existing families are better equipped for helping a grieving widow, for taking on children, than a single man with no experience in such matters.