In ancient Macedonia 16 year male was considered adult. So he could do military service, marriage etc...
Teenage era as part of human development is, historically speaking, recent invention.
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Biblical Patriarchy vs. Predators
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Teenage era as part of human development is, historically speaking, recent invention.
You're getting there, at least you realise it varies from person to person!
This is why God put the young woman's father in charge, not you or me.
15 year olds would be able to control their lust a whole lot more if the knew the consequence was marriage. Right now there's no consequences to their actions at all.
Well i've always thought it varied from person to person, I just think that decision should be made at an appropriate age, I won't hammer home again why I think 15 is not an appropriate age. I'm sorry but I don't think all fathers should be in charge of their daughter's marital choices, can you explain this to me some more?
Do you mean the emotional damage of women having multiple partners, the lack of quality men in their future due to being used up, becoming single mothers, damaging their bodies with abortions and birth control, among other things aren't properly explained as consequences?
They don't see them as consequences. Get pregnant? Have an abortion. They are told there will be no lasting effects, and it's just a bunch of cells.
I guarantee that if you told 15 year olds, boys and girls, that if they had sex the result was they had to marry that person, there would be a lot less mucking around. A lot less sex, a lot more able to control their urges, a lot of growing up.
Sure not all fathers are good. Some are terrible.
So what's your better solution? What is your threshold age or other measure of maturity level? Why? And who should be in charge of assessing it?
I asked the question earlier for a reason, and really do encourage you to try and answer it. It's very easy to criticise God's standards, but much harder to come up with something better. And if you can't come up with something better, we'll just have to fall back to what God said. Fortunately I suppose we could do worse than just obey God!
To keep my statements in context and not think we're arguing from greatly different positions, do remember that as I said before I see the legal age of consent as a hard minimum, and in most countries that is 16. We're just nutting out some small details here.
You are saying that they shouldn't have the decision. Not one person here (from what I've seen) is advocating forcing marriage on anyone. My belief is that a father should be able to choose when his daughter is ready for marriage. And from that point on she can choose who to marry. That man must want to marry her, and she should have her father's approval. Sometimes the father may find a prospective husband, and if he is wise, and his daughter trusts him, she may choose to marry who he picked. I do not believe women should be forced to marry just whoever their father picks out. If she chooses to sleep with someone, that is akin to choosing to marry them in my mind.
This was a major concern for me. But at the end of the day a woman of any age could turn around and say this, and women who married at 25 or even 30 often do. I chose to trust the decision made by my now wife, and I have been given no reason to regret it. "couldn't possibly have been mature enough" is not a statement you can make as you have not met every 15 year old (girl or boy).
Yes, one is 18 and the other is 15. All other differences are subjective, and usually reliant upon the personal situation of each person, as well as their legal jurisdiction.
That's the higher end. Puberty should start closer to 8, and no later than 13. Studies in the USA have indicated that Black and Mexican girls tend to start their periods sooner. I don't know the exact reasoning for this, but I have my assumptions. Moving on...
Again, incorrect usually. I don't really know what you mean by "know your body", most men's bodies continue changing till 26, and women have far more drastic chemical changes later on in life. As for the hygiene comment. I have no idea what kind of young girls you have met, but my experience has always been that young girls take to personal hygiene FAR better than most young boys.
Three sisters, my wife ofcourse, and plenty of female friends at school and the like growing up. And I've probably seen the least of all the men and women here.
Seriously. Are you seriously trying to persuade us that we have no knowledge of human development?
Certainly a 15 year old girl at least looks similar to a woman grown.
Who cares what her voice sounds like? Oh no her voice is higher and slightly airy! She could never marry and have children!
Most "grown women" don't think like grown women. People don't think their age, they think their maturity. I have seen younger women (even on this forum) act wise beyond their years, and older women act like children.
I hope you would consider yourself still developing mentally. Your brain doesn't cease learning at a certain age.
Actually, the breasts change again during menopause. [insert sarcastic comment]
An 18 year old man can way 200 pounds or more. A 30 year old woman can weigh less than 110 pounds.
Is the weight the issue? The girl's age? Or the age gap? You're ending this with mixed signals. Either way, I have a good friend who is nearly a foot and half taller than his wife, and probably has a hundred pounds on her. She is older than him by two years. So that argument is not only disconnected from the age argument, but it is also stupid. I'm not going to calling the other arguments stupid, but the weight one is.These among many other reasons are why under absolutely no circumstance will I ever be convinced that it's ok for an adult, 200lb man with 50 years life experience to pound out a 110lb, 15 year old girl that is still learning about her body and mind which still aren't even fully devolved yet, under the guise of saving her from high school boys
Point to a mandate in scripture before you start calling stuff depravity.
I can understand the mental issues. I agree that the majority of 15 year old girls today are not fit to be a janitor let alone a wife and mother (same goes for most 15 year old boys and being a husband and father). But that is not true for everyone. And I certainly hope it won't be true for anyone here's children.
As to your comments on grooming. All women in Biblical relationships submit to their husband. He is their leader and should give them direction. To not give direction to your wife, to not guide her and teach her the way you want your family to be, is cruel. How can a woman be expected to follow when the man does not lead? A younger woman has less to unlearn and it is usually easier for her to learn new habits. That is not a bad thing, and it should not be considered as such.
No, I was responding to the idea that men want a "submissive woman who is willing to please." It should be her choice when she's lived long enough to actually come to this conclusion. A 15 years old doesn't know what they want so don't influence them to chose anything that is life altering by projecting your wants/needs onto them at that age, it's not fair.
Maybe not purposely however marrying a 15 year old is essentially forcing someone into marriage in my opinion because they are vulnerable and unable to make such decisions.
Possibly, i'm open to this idea. I'm just not convinced it should happen at such at early age.
Definitely but my example was used to show that there is another side to this, many are only looking at it from a positive view.
On one hand ya'll are saying "marry a 15 year old because they have less experience, less to unlearn, they will be easier to guide and teach" on the other "my 15 year wife or future wife is wise beyond her 15 years, she's the smartest 15 year old to ever exist, she's far more mature than most 30 year old women" Well isn't that convenient?
No the other differences are not subjective, first the physical differences as i've already listed previously. You may think my weight comparison is stupid (that's fine) however it does show the difference in growth and development. In the US a 15 year old girl's average weight is 115lbs, an 18 year old girls average weight is almost 150lbs. You know where some of this weight comes from most likely? Key parts of their body being fully developed. An 18 year old also has more freedom than a 15 year old, they can legally work, legally live on their own, legally purchase and own items that a 15 year can not.
Should or does start at 8? Because i'm reading that the average is 12.5-13 years old.
A 26 year old hasn't just recently developed, it's not new to them. The changes they are experiencing are to a pre-existing body and they are also far more mentally prepared to handle such things.
Possibly compared to younger boys however not compared to adult women and they shouldn't have to, they're still learning which is why they don't need a grown man interfering.
No i'm praying that most of the older men who think it's ok to sleep with a 15 year old girl are just inexperienced or unaware of these things, which is why I pointed them out. If they are aware of these things and still consider it ok to do then it's a lost cause.
I wasn't only referencing the tone or this point by itself. The tone, the mannerism, the verbiage etc. When you're speaking with a 15 year old, it's quite obvious. Combine this with having just hit puberty, with a developing body, with the fact that they're still growing weight wise, the fact that they're still learning, developing mentally. ALL of these things combined is what makes them vulnerable.
Well, "have you met most grown women?" Because ya'll have no issue telling me not to make blanket statement about 15 year olds, while in the same breath expressing how immature most grown women are. I still don't understand this argument, a grown woman's immaturity has nothing to do with a 15 year old's maturity, there is no comparison, so many of you are deflecting with this and with other things.
I've had this brain for 38 years (unfortunately) and these breasts for around 28 years (thankfully) if either decide to change anytime soon i'm far more capable of handling that change at my present age then I was at 15.
That's why I said average, it was to show that there's a growing process with age...
I'm combining all of them, it's a mixed signal because you want to separate my examples. The weight argument is to give a visual idea of not only the mental differences between a 15 year old female and a 50 year old man but the physical as well.
I never claimed to be speaking from scripture, this is my opinion. Just as you have yours and I highly doubt all of your opinions are scripturally based.
Women CHOSE to submit to their husbands, a 15 year old who by your own admission hasn't had to unlearned anything, is easier to guide and teach isn't choosing anything, she's being taken advantage of.
By many of your own admissions you want younger women because they're easily influenced and molded for your benefit, while also expecting me to believe that they're wise beyond their years. Please pick one!
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I'm not from the USA (although I've travelled and preached there multiple times) but it seems the American and western culture has shaped much of the thinking and the responses in this discussion. The physical sizes and development of the people being referred to are vastly different where some of you live compared to other places in the world.
People and cultures change but the Word of God remains. Our thinking has to be brought in to conformity to the Word of God rather than try to make the Word of God conform to the local culture and custom our thinking is built around.
God hasn't set age limits for marriage, but He has given crystal clear instruction about who can marry who, and who has authority over marriage. Anything outside of that is just opinion and preference but that's all it is. Shalom
People and cultures change but the Word of God remains. Our thinking has to be brought in to conformity to the Word of God rather than try to make the Word of God conform to the local culture and custom our thinking is built around.
God hasn't set age limits for marriage, but He has given crystal clear instruction about who can marry who, and who has authority over marriage. Anything outside of that is just opinion and preference but that's all it is. Shalom
I recently met an ex-Amish family who "got saved" and transitioned into Biblical Christianity when they started reading the Scriptures for themselves. Then, after hearing an AUDIBLE voice from Yah about keeping the true sabbath, they are now TO. Mom is on FB sharing pics of their daily lives and it is amazing what they (kids included!) accomplish in a day. Not to mention their sweet spirits and JOY! They still dress pretty plain and look Mennonite to the average person. Mom had 7 and is hoping Yah will bless them with one more.
That's nice. That fact remains that 15yo girls ARE having babies and they ARE doing all of the things I listed except getting married.
So since society allows and even encourages a 15yo girl to have sex and have a baby then why prohibit the same girl from getting married if that's what she wants to do?
Indeed. Sometimes the 15yo is much more mature than the 18yo.
Case in point: 15yo Taylor Swift was making very shrewd business decisions at her age and she is now worth $400 million to $1.5 billion by various estimates. Because of the decisions she made at 15.
At 18 I had maybe $800 to my name and I couldn't find my butt with both hands. by 18 1/2 I had made life altering decisions with precious little appreciation of how serious those decisions were until after it was too late to go back on them.
Now why is it that you think I was magically more capable to make life decisions than Taylor Swift was? Because you'll never convince me that I was.
If we can agree that the "appropriate age" has changed throughout time and culture then we can agree that at some point 15 was not an outrageous age to get married. Yah doesn't change. Which means whatever His standard and restrictions were, they still are.
Speaking for myself, I'm not making the point because I want a 15 year old, I'm making the point to prove a point. There are some who disapprove of marrying an 18, 19, or even 20 year old because they're "too young". So in my mind I'm tackling the idea that 15 is too young, which tackles the rest by default.
We have a brother here who married a 15 year old while in his teens @StudentofHim and I see nothing wrong with that. I suspect that fathers here would be fine with a similar arrangement for their sons.
You have explicitly advocated AGAINST 15 year old girls consenting to marriage. You said 18 is different. What about 16? 17?
I see the Marques Houston marriage as a beautiful example of what I have in mind. He met her at 17 through church affiliations and married her at 19. Slight adjustments to the ages don't make too much difference to me.
Your sticking point is the 15 year old girl being taken advantage of. Which is exactly what the wisdom and protection of the father protects her against. Her father sets her up with a man (with her consent) who's going to take care of her the rest of her life. So that she won't be taken advantage of. That's the father's whole purpose, which you completely dismiss because you're stuck on her being taken advantage of despite the protections in place to prevent that. If she turns 25 and wants a divorce because she felt taken advantage of, so be it. But I don't suspect that to be the case with women who fully adopt a traditional biblical patriarchal mindset.
If she's too young at 15 to know what's best for her, is her father too stupid to be her rock in helping her make that decision? If he loves her, that's exactly what he will do. And he will make sure she's ready.
Here is the definition of grooming you're drawing from:
"the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization."
No one here is advocating sexual assault. We're advocating consensual marriages with the father's approval. And it is automatically outside of "sexual assault" legally in any form depending on age of consent requirements in that particular area.
This is the overlooked definition of "grooming" that gets side stepped because the connotation is immediately negative:
"the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity."
This is way more accurate to what I'm saying. Her father and mother groom her all her life to be a wife. Her husband will do the same. No harm, no foul. She is being trained to be a wife and mother, and the husband will train and teach her the particular kind of wife and mother he requires her to be.
Where there is no law, there is no sin. Personal disgust, etc etc etc are not higher judgment than Yah Almighty.
Bear in mind: If Big Brother gets his way (and unless Real Men step in - it's already happening!)
"she" won't HAVE a choice. And won't live long enough to come to any rational conclusions.
Kids are being taught to EMOTE - not think. Not connect 'cause and effect.'
They're being taught that not only does "God" not exist (unless he's Annointed by The God of Washington, etc) but He can't even tell what "gender" is.
Yes, they are "mature" enough (at 9? 6?) to "choose" abortion, choose to take puberty blockers, and 'choose' to cut off things they may later (if they live so long) wish they still had.
All of this has been pointed out.
My frustration grows when I ponder that "women" aren't even allowed to CHOOSE to say "NO!" to a rapist with a gun in so many places.
And we wonder whether Isaiah was soft-pedaling things (Isaiah 3:4, and then 12).
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Funny how conservatives yell and scream about how 14 or 15 year olds should not be able to cut off their breasts (and rightfully so), and yet on the other hand think she is capable of making a life altering decision to marrying a 50 year old who will be dead by the time she's 35 or 40.
She doesn't have the maturity to wisely choose a life partner at that stage in life. I don't know what the acceptable age is, but that isn't it. End of story.
She doesn't have the maturity to wisely choose a life partner at that stage in life. I don't know what the acceptable age is, but that isn't it. End of story.
But you keep skipping over her father's influence on that decision. Is he not a capable covering that can discern whether it is in her long best interest to marry an older man in her youth?
50 is the extreme. Is it the same aversion to her marrying a 35 year old?
I'm not claiming she has the maturity to make the decision alone, I'm saying a good father is fully capable of being the responsible party that prevents her from acting off emotions alone.
So I'll ask again: does a God fearing father have the maturity to help his 15 year old daughter choose a good husband?
@NBTX11, we obviously try to lead our children to the ideal decisions at ideal ages. However, when it comes to real life, we're not always dealing with ideal situations, often with very non-ideal ones and trying to find the best way forward in a bad situation.
For instance, if a young lady gets pregnant in, say, New Mexico, the young man who got her pregnant is happy to marry her, her parents think this is the best approach, and she thinks this is the best thing to do:
- Should they marry, in accordance with secular law which allows young people to marry in that circumstance in that state, and in accordance with scripture?
- Or should they break up because they're younger than an arbitrary age in @NBTX11's mind?
There is a really good article on Wikipedia on the history of marriage age laws in the USA, and the present laws in all the different states. What is very interesting is how much compassionate scope many states give to young people caught in difficult circumstances like the above. These laws are not often used - very few people marry at such young ages, and personally I think that is as it should be. But there is an exception to every rule, and even secular law often recognises that. Through laws that in most cases have been on the books for so long that they were originally written by God-fearing men truly seeking to do what was right for young people, and to protect them from exploitation.
en.wikipedia.org
For instance, if a young lady gets pregnant in, say, New Mexico, the young man who got her pregnant is happy to marry her, her parents think this is the best approach, and she thinks this is the best thing to do:
- Should they marry, in accordance with secular law which allows young people to marry in that circumstance in that state, and in accordance with scripture?
- Or should they break up because they're younger than an arbitrary age in @NBTX11's mind?
There is a really good article on Wikipedia on the history of marriage age laws in the USA, and the present laws in all the different states. What is very interesting is how much compassionate scope many states give to young people caught in difficult circumstances like the above. These laws are not often used - very few people marry at such young ages, and personally I think that is as it should be. But there is an exception to every rule, and even secular law often recognises that. Through laws that in most cases have been on the books for so long that they were originally written by God-fearing men truly seeking to do what was right for young people, and to protect them from exploitation.
Marriage age in the United States - Wikipedia
If you don't know, let's just run with what the law says, and not try to reinvent the wheel.
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A God fearing father should not be choosing a husband for his 15 year old daughter.
First off, how many God fearing fathers are there even. 1 percent? .0001 percent?
He can scout out young men that he thinks may be good candidates, but 15 is to young to "choose" (your words) a good husband.
I vetted both of my daughter's boyfriends. One got married at age 22 to a 24 year old, and another is 30 with a 31 year old boyfriend. Neither were anywhere near anything remotely near marriage at age 15.
Nope, no, no way would I ever in hell set my 15 year old with a 50 year old or 35 year old for that matter. Full fledged mature adult 18-20 year old may be a different story (but not necessarily, still needs to be thoroughly vetted). A lot of maturing happens between 15-20. Like a lifetime of maturing.
So, we're really not that far apart in opinion, it just seems that way due to the level of emotion this issue imparts.
@NBTX11, we obviously try to lead our children to the ideal decisions at ideal ages. However, when it comes to real life, we're not always dealing with ideal situations, often with very non-ideal ones and trying to find the best way forward in a bad situation.
For instance, if a young lady gets pregnant in, say, New Mexico, the young man who got her pregnant is happy to marry her, her parents think this is the best approach, and she thinks this is the best thing to do:
- Should they marry, in accordance with secular law which allows young people to marry in that circumstance in that state, and in accordance with scripture?
- Or should they break up because they're younger than an arbitrary age in @NBTX11's mind?
There is a really good article on Wikipedia on the history of marriage age laws in the USA, and the present laws in all the different states. What is very interesting is how much compassionate scope many states give to young people caught in difficult circumstances like the above. These laws are not often used - very few people marry at such young ages, and personally I think that is as it should be. But there is an exception to every rule, and even secular law often recognises that. Through laws that in most cases have been on the books for so long that they were originally written by God-fearing men truly seeking to do what was right for young people, and to protect them from exploitation.
Marriage age in the United States - Wikipedia
If you don't know, let's just run with what the law says, and not try to reinvent the wheel.
You added a huge scenario to the equation which I was not discussing: pregnancy.
My thoughts on setting up a marriage had nothing to do with a pregnancy. That alters the equation significantly. If a teenage girl gets pregnant, then yes marriage is an option. My own mother was a teenage parent to me and got married at 16 or so. That is just making the best of a bad situation that had already been created. A child is involved and one that needs a mother and father and financial support and everything else.
That is completely different than a father "choosing" a husband for his immature daughter. Those two situations are apples vs. oranges.
Largely because they're hypothetical vs real life.
What father here is ACTUALLY going to recommend a 50-year-old husband for their 16-year-old daughter? Probably nobody. That is an insanely extreme hypothetical situation that people will defend as being not technically sinful - but it ain't gonna happen. It's just too weird.
While the situations we are likely to actually encounter in real life are ones like @StudentofHim (healthy romances between two young people) and the aftermath of bad choices (what to do about teenage pregnancies). Facing any real-world situation like that we'd probably all be, if not in agreement, at least close to agreement. And we can probably all agree that the young people and their parents in such a circumstance are the most appropriate people to figure out what to do in their unique circumstances - because all real situations are unique.
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