Breaking faith with the potential second wife

[Wesley]

The responsibility to your own family is more important than that owed to others.

There are plenty of ways to take care of sisters in Christ without taking them on as a wife.

Really?

1 Corinthians 7:2 NIV
2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.

1 Corinthians 7:9 NIV
9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

How then do we meet that particular need without taking them on as wives?

How do we provide fathers for the children of women who have become the victims of deadbeat dads without taking single moms on as second, third, etc. wives?

We're talking about their immortal souls and the temptation to sexual sin.

Let us not forget the words of Christ...

Matthew 18:6 NIV
16 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

When we see a woman who is facing the stumbling block of her own libido is it better to leave that stumbling block in place or is it "better [for her] to marry than to burn with passion." (1 Corinthians 7:9)

Remember, planning the sin is the same as committing it. (Matthew 5:28) So if she spends too much time thinking about one night stands to satisfy her libido then that is the same as committing the sin even if she doesn't actually do it.

 

[ylop]

It is incredibly generous of you to offer to rescue all these women burning with lust.

However the rescuing power might not be as effective on this category of women when they are put into a 1 in 3, 1 in 4, 1 in 5 plus rotation.

 

[Wesley]

It is incredibly generous of you to offer to rescue all these women burning with lust.

However the rescuing power might not be as effective on this category of women when they are put into a 1 in 3, 1 in 4, 1 in 5 plus rotation.

That is exactly the type of callous and sarcastic response that I expected from you. I hoped I was wrong in my expectations but unfortunately I wasn't.

 

[ylop]

Just addressing the practical side of the plan

There was a man on here a few years ago who posted about his plan to buy an apartment block and fill it with 100 to 200 wives, I wish I could locate that old thread!

I am not sure if his plan would resolve the "burning with lust" issue.

Also, I do seem to recall a few Christians in years past have managed to assist widows and orphans without marrying them.

Of course providing a full family service is a great option, and certainly a Biblical method, but not the only way.

 

[Wesley]

Just addressing the practical side of the plan

Not even close.

Let's take a look at the response...

It is incredibly generous of you to offer to rescue all these women burning with lust.

Since no man could ever hope to satisfy more than two or three women, five at the very outside if he's in great shape and they're not, the quoted remark is pure sarcasm based on the use of the word "all."

Since the word "all" reveals the sarcasm that means that the words "incredibly generous" are also a sarcastic reference that mean exactly the opposite and constitute a direct insult.

There was a man on here a few years ago who posted about his plan to buy an apartment block and fill it with 100 to 200 wives, I wish I could locate that old thread!

Any comparison between me and a person who would want 200 wives is more than just a little insulting. Why do I believe that is targeted at me?

It is incredibly generous of you...

Because you've already directed your sarcasm directly at me by using the word "you."

I am not sure if his plan would resolve the "burning with lust" issue.

Probably not if we're dealing in the numbers that you're sarcastically talking about.

Also, I do seem to recall a few Christians in years past have managed to assist widows and orphans without marrying them.

I'm sure that SOME widows and orphans can be assisted that way but to generalize them all into that category is a stereotype.

Of course providing a full family service is a great option, and certainly a Biblical method, but not the only way.

I'm glad that you at least admit that it is biblical. I will stick with the word of God and let those who want to live by human rules try to figure out the meaning of Matthew 15:7-9 and Mark 7:6-7.

Once again, SOME can be helped in the ways that you are suggesting. I'm not dumb enough to buy into stereotypes so I'm not going to believe that all of them can be helped by those methods however.

 

[FollowingHim2]

There was a man on here a few years ago who posted about his plan to buy an apartment block and fill it with 100 to 200 wives, I wish I could locate that old thread.

It was 1000 wives and the guy was a loony. The thread got archived so no one new read it and thought Biblical Families was in any way associated with or promoting such ideas.
He was unemployed too I might add.

 

[ylop]

Thanks for the reminder. that was the best thread ever. but I understand why I cant find it now

1000, he was the Solomon for our times.

of course he is unemployed, he needs his rest in between fulfilling other's needs (altruistically of course).

 

[ylop]

My thoughts on breaking faith with the potential second wife

BEFORE SHE IS A WIFE
Be honest and upfront with her
don't create false expectations
If the existing wife/s object to her presence and ask for her to be sent away, then the existing wife/s feeling must be taken deeply into consideration, and not pushed away/through. there may be a good reason why existing wife/s object, they may be able to sense things you cannot because of attraction blindness. or it may be there is no good reason for existing wife/s to object, however the fact that they are objecting to the husband's judgement is an unresolved issue in itself, and the family should not be expanded until these issues are sorted out. it is an error to add more when the foundation is weak. adding one wife but losing another (perhaps even the wife of your youth) is not a net gain, or even standing still, it is a net loss.

AFTER SHE IS A WIFE
She is now in a life long covenant with the husband (but not with the other wife/s)
She has the same rights as any other wife
If existing wife/s object to her presence and ask for her to be sent away, the answer is no. each marriage is fully valid and stands on its own, independent of the others. the man is the head and will not follow the command of one wife to divorce another, that is like listening to Eve rather than God.

 

[Wesley]

My thoughts on breaking faith with the potential second wife

Now that you're sharing your thoughts instead of just criticizing mine it seems that we actually agree on quite a few things.

BEFORE SHE IS A WIFE
Be honest and upfront with her
don't create false expectations

Agreed.

If the existing wife/s object to her presence and ask for her to be sent away, then the existing wife/s feeling must be taken deeply into consideration, and not pushed away/through. there may be a good reason why existing wife/s object, they may be able to sense things you cannot because of attraction blindness.

Once again we agree. A man who does not listen, to both her feelings and her ideas (two separate things), is acting like a fool. God gave women brains and mouths for a reason. They have two ears and only one mouth, just like we do, indicating that all of us (both women and men) should listen twice as often as we speak.

That works both ways though. Expecting them to listen isn't going to work if we're not ready to return the favor.

Communication requires one to listen and the other to speak and then take turns doing each. Without communication a relationship, any relationship regardless of what type, is doomed.

or it may be there is no good reason for existing wife/s to object, however the fact that they are objecting to the husband's judgement is an unresolved issue in itself, and the family should not be expanded until these issues are sorted out. it is an error to add more when the foundation is weak. adding one wife but losing another (perhaps even the wife of your youth) is not a net gain, or even standing still, it is a net loss.

The biggest dispute we have is that I believe that there should be a "if they can be sorted out" in there somewhere.

If the problems can be sorted out then they should be. I disagree with you about sending a potential second wife away in response to issues that did not arise until after she showed up. That's a minor issue however.

My comments, right from the OP, refer to situations where the problems cannot be sorted out. My comments refer to the situation when the first wife simply declares that no woman will ever be good enough, and there is nothing that her husband can do to fix the problems, and monogamy is the only way to continue the relationship.

At that point the answer is "Okay, make your decisions because the will of Christ is more important to me than the will of my wife." (Genesis 3:17)

My experience is that if a wife can dictate terms in this fashion then she will. My experience is that it will go far beyond simply the monogamy vs. polygamy issue and soon she will be running the house in direct violation of God's commands.

AFTER SHE IS A WIFE
She is now in a life long covenant with the husband (but not with the other wife/s)
She has the same rights as any other wife
If existing wife/s object to her presence and ask for her to be sent away, the answer is no. each marriage is fully valid and stands on its own, independent of the others. the man is the head and will not follow the command of one wife to divorce another, that is like listening to Eve rather than God.

Once again we agree.

 

[ylop]

The thing is, in most cases I don't think second wives just show up. You need to go out looking for them.

Anyway, I guess there could be situations where you have been totally upfront about polygamy, and your first wife says okay, but later in the courtship of number 2 she changes her mind. Technically you could proceed and might not even be doing anything wrong in that, you are simply following a pathway already explained.

Here is a naval analogy for you:

---
ACTUAL transcript of a US naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October, 1995. This radio conversation was released by the Chief of Naval Operations on 10-10-95.

Americans: "Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision."

Canadians: "Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision."

Americans: "This is the captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course."

Canadians: "No, I say again, you divert YOUR course."

Americans: "THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE SECOND LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES' ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS AND NUMEROUS SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH. THAT'S ONE-FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTER MEASURES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP."

Canadians: "This is a lighthouse. Your call."
---

Its from Snopes and is an internet story, not real.

I am suggesting that you can be technically correct but going ahead with the original plan could lead to disaster.

Flexibility is important.

Love is not always logical.

Cheers,

ylop

 

[Jack P.]

Picked up my phone this morning to find alerts that this thread had been posted to overnight. I love a debate as much as the next guy. I have prayed and am struggling for the correct words I can write that God will touch your heart with. Needing to get in the shower and start my daily chores I will make this short. Again I say to you Wesley this post is entered with Christian brotherly love and not as an attack against you or your beliefs, although you may not like hearing them( reading) the following statements come or are rooted in a few basic beliefs.

1 if you believe in the Bible you believe in the whole of the old and new. Not parts of it or one or the other testaments.

2 that the Bible is a the living word ie it grows and changes with each individual and is applicable to what ever place they are on their Christian walk.

3 that the word of our Father was meant as a history lesson, a guide book to life and how we all should STRIVE to live.

4 that the Bible in whole or part is not and was never intended to be used as a weapon, as a club to beat people into submission. It ( the Bible) I believe was intended as a comfort a blanket of warmth to be embraced.

Now comes the love part of this post. Please don't dissect every statement and phrase contained here. You have made you position clear, you have communicated it clearly. I have no doubt where you stand. And I hope you understand where I stand as well as everyone else.
I don't agree with your understanding or assessment of how to best handle this topic in MY life. Nor do I care, I seek council from a lot of deferent sources. Not just one person or group I take in as much information from different sources and then pray before forming my opinions or beliefs on all subjects.
You keep making the statement that you feel some of the statements are directed at you personally. This would indicate that you are not secure in what you have been posting. A secure man states his position and leaves it at that, a leader or house head speaks once, softly not in a loud repetitive tone. He receives the respect that is deserved. To insist over and over, that causes a loss of respect each time. And if you have had success in your approach to this. ( second wife rights and importance) The women that you have had in your life would still be there.

I have said ( in this thread and in my public testimony that I have had three failed marriages) I now have a successful relationship. What was the common denominator in the first three ME. What change then? ME. I love you as a brother in Christ. So please stop beating me over the head with these scriptures you have picked out of the word as ammo, because anyone that wanted could pick as many to counter point every one of them.


Jack P.
In His name

 

[Wesley]

Anyway, I guess there could be situations where you have been totally upfront about polygamy, and your first wife says okay, but later in the courtship of number 2 she changes her mind. Technically you could proceed and might not even be doing anything wrong in that, you are simply following a pathway already explained.

Could be?

When I read things like this it feels like you are directly calling me a liar. This isn't what "could be" this is what IS, or at least "was", in my past.

Samuel did directly call me a liar by telling me that the problem was my own improper action rather than spouse abuse by my wives. I have to wonder what evidence he has. Was he there? Was he hiding in the closet watching what happened? If not then how does he know that I'm lying? What evidence is causing him to draw that conclusion.

Now you're saying that I "could be" telling the truth. In other words I'm probably lying but it's remotely possible that I'm not.

I ask again, what evidence do you have to call me a liar? Were you hiding in the closet watching and listening? If not then how do you know what happened?

If you weren't there, and thus don't know what happened, then what evidence do you have to call me a liar?

Its from Snopes and is an internet story, not real.

I am suggesting that you can be technically correct but going ahead with the original plan could lead to disaster.

Flexibility is important.

Love is not always logical.

Your naval analogy falls flat. I spent six years serving in the US Navy and any sailor that knows anything about radio protocol, navigation and/or ship handling (I'm familiar with all three) can spot the telltale flaws in the story pretty quickly. I've actually spent some time at the helm of the aircraft carrier USS America CV-66.

The analogy also falls flat in telling me to go against God's word in favor of human ideas, something that I will never do. God comes first in my life not any sinful person.

 

[Wesley]

So please stop beating me over the head with these scriptures you have picked out of the word as ammo, because anyone that wanted could pick as many to counter point every one of them.

We agree that the God intended the Bible as a road map rather than a club. We seem to have differing opinions as to which one of us is clubbing the other.

With that said, may God bless and keep you always. Adieu.

 

[ylop]

the analogy cannot fall flat, because it is not attempting to stand up.

it is attempting to express and share.

you are being very adversarial in your reactions.

 

[Wesley]

you are being very adversarial in your reactions.

What do you expect when I'm being directly called a 'liar'?

 

[FollowingHim]

Well said Jack. Particularly this very wise truth that Wesley should take to heart:

To insist over and over, that causes a loss of respect each time.

Wesley, I have not called you a liar, and such accusations are causing me to rapidly lose patience with you. Nor did I imply as you said earlier that anyone with multiple exes doesn't know what he's doing in marriage. You insist on twisting statements that disagree with your position into personal attacks.

It is arguments like this that get many good people completely frustrated with the forum, and this is the key reason that many of the actually successful polygamists in Biblical Families are rarely on the forum. Because they are sick of this nonsense, and have better things to do with their time than have pointless debates.

I intend to keep this forum a place for calm discussion, not arguments. We can do this the easy way (choosing to just talk calmly & rationally), or the hard way (requiring pre-approval of your posts by a moderator before they appear on the site). I would much prefer the first, because it is a lot easier for me. But I will let you decide. I will watch how this thread continues.

So let's reboot this discussion.

Wesley, why did you start this thread in the first place? (1) Do you actually want to discuss the topic, hear differing viewpoints and improve your own understanding of scripture? (2) Do you presume you have the authority to be our teacher, assume that you know more about this than anybody else, so wish to use this discussion forum as your personal preaching platform? (3) Are you trying unsuccessfully to persuade your wife that this is true so wanted to get a few other people to agree with you so you could selectively quote them and say "See, this anonymous guy on the internet agrees with me so I must be right"? Or something else.

Only (1) is a valid use of this forum. If you want to do (2), start a blog or write a book. If you want to do (3) - change your mind and don't do it.

So, back to breaking faith with the potential second wife. Others have stated that the scriptures you have cited supporting obligations towards potentials are not relevant to the issue, and cited practical reasons drawing on their own experience why a different approach would be wise. Let's discuss this specific topic calmly. Anyone who can't do that just stop.

I will now be deleting any further posts to this thread that stray off this narrow topic.

 

[Isabella]

Thanks for the reminder. that was the best thread ever. but I understand why I cant find it now

1000, he was the Solomon for our times.

of course he is unemployed, he needs his rest in between fulfilling other's needs (altruistically of course).

Wasn't it? Didn't he say he would "see" them every thirty minutes and over the course of the week he should have slept with them all? Then rinse and repeat the following week. That would have been his only job.

B

 

[ylop]

Then rinse and repeat the following week.

Certainly there would have been a lot of rinsing. The man had standards.

 

[Isabella]

Then rinse and repeat the following week.

Certainly there would have been a lot of rinsing. The man had standards.

I don't want to dwell on the visuals for that!

 

[Wesley]

Then rinse and repeat the following week.

Certainly there would have been a lot of rinsing. The man had standards.

I don't want to dwell on the visuals for that!

Neither do I.

As for the rest, I seriously doubt that I'm ready for King David's 21 let alone King Solomon's 1000. I'm not sure I want to dwell on that either.