Both verses look like the same doctrine to me
One is saying keep the law for salvation. That’s false teaching.
Five is simply saying keep the law. That’s not false teaching...
Both verses look like the same doctrine to me
I don't think anyone is making that assumption. I'm at least working around the idea of how can a Bible scholar who lives it to the tee be capable of not knowing God which is best case scenario to killing Christians like Paul which is worse case. Is this where the path leads if you spend all your effort trying to know about God and not trying to know God? One of the things that cued this thought was I had some friends go to seminary and some of the stuff they were taught by well educated theologians was madness. The theologians loved the book and had devoted there lives to it but they had missed God by miles. I am not downing the Bible at all. I am just not equating it too God. If Idolizing the scripture produces a religious phariseeical spirit then I would say it is by far the deadliest weapon Satan has formed.One of the major false assumptions that is being made here is that some are assuming that because others don't believe the Holy Spirit operates in a certain way that they then don't believe in the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals don't have a lock on the Holy Spirit and any dispensationalist church that rejects the Holy Spirit isn't even Christian. The differences between the two sides here is of methods and degrees. And they can only be addressed through Scripture.
And yet in 24.
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Same guys
Jesus walked with Peter yet it took the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to him that Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus could not do it. People who make a God out of the Bible become extreme fundamentalists who get so bogged down with the words until they miss the thoughts they were intended to convey. It is not that the words are not important but the sense of the intended thought is more important than the overreach of many to bog down over words until the intended thought is missed. This was the error of the Scribes. Lawyers, and Pharisees. I believe in the Scripture. I seek the truth it intends to convey. We must not wrest the scriptures to our destruction.
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
The Wisdom of God
18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
This is a major over generalization. I was Independent Baptist for 37 years up until early this year and I never believed that nor do I know anyone within the independent Baptist movement who does... perhaps there are some but I don’t know them...
But it could equally be that you simply never asked a pastor the right question in the right way to elicit that response. The average pew sitter won't have, even if the pastor believes it.
One of the major false assumptions that is being made here is that some are assuming that because others don't believe the Holy Spirit operates in a certain way that they then don't believe in the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals don't have a lock on the Holy Spirit and any dispensationalist church that rejects the Holy Spirit isn't even Christian. The differences between the two sides here is of methods and degrees. And they can only be addressed through Scripture.
Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us....By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit.
I’m not sure I follow. What are they saying that implies that they believe the Bible is literally God in paper form?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Protestants do something like this. They draw lines of fellowship based on theological belief. This is said to come from a Greek way of thinking...you attain salvation / holiness / god / higher good via perfect understanding; as opposed to the Hebrew concept of a relationship with God and obedience to Him. This has faded some with the modern evangelical gospel's emphasis on a 'personal relationship with Jesus'; but their version has even bigger problems.
Likewise Protestant church life often revolves around knowledge: studying the Bible, listening to sermons, etc and is almost entirely devoid of spiritual disciplines, loving one another, and most any other action commended to us in the NT. In a way you could say that is like making the Bible an idol; or maybe more likely it's the fruit of doing so. I'm not sure there.
This is referring back to the group mentioned in verse 1 this was why Paul went to Jerusalem. They were teaching them to keep the law for salvation. The group spoken about in verse 5 was already present in Jerusalem. It’s a different group that was never spoken against in the entire passage. Also notice the group in verse one are not said to be Pharisees.
This is getting off topic so feel free to split this off if you think it best.
I know that the idea of keeping the law runs counter to mainstream teaching and therefore the default assumption is that those in verse 5 were false brethren but that’s not what the passage actually teaches. Paul never stopped being a Pharisee he testifies later in a court of law that he is (present tense) a Pharisee, also he never converted to anything. The footnotes in your bible are not inspired.
I will attempt to explain what I mean. From the gospel of John...
So the word = God = Jesus. Jesus was the word incarnate in flesh. Now when someone holds up a Bible and says 'this is the word' or 'the word of God', they are literally saying that that individual book is God/Jesus incarnate in paper form. That might not be what they mean in their mind, but that is what they are literally saying in English. You could say they are misspeaking from thoughtlessness, lack of vision, or lack of knowledge, but that is what they are nevertheless saying. This is akin to making their Bible an idol, since it isn't actually God made paper.
Now that might seem crazy. But remember, most Christians in this world are part of a group which actually thinks that when blessed, the communion cracker literally turns into the body of Christ. God incarnate in paper isn't much different than that. Not to mention that some men teach that God only works directly on earth via the teaching of the Bible or that the Holy Spirit no longer works amoung us since we now have the Bible. For those people, the Bible IS the only manifestation of God at work today. So in practical terms, if not theological ones, it is their only God with us. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are mere characters in history, distant figures who exist, but are not here.
Now will a Protestant say... you attain salvation through perfect belief? Not likely. But that is effectively where they've arrived in many cases; even if they don't realize it, even if they don't like it or agree.
And really, what is all that talk condemning 'works based salvation' other than to say essentially that salvation is attained only through right belief. And for the more legalistic/conservative/fundamental that rapidly approaches 'only through perfect belief'.
Quite a few people made that assumption. I think it was explicitly said a number of times. There was some musing about how people could reject the Holy Spirit and even a slight trembling for their salvation. There is a big difference between rejecting the Holy Spirit and rejecting Pentecostal dogma.I don't think anyone is making that assumption.
Agreed. There is definitely a difference between rejecting the Holy Spirit and Pentecostal Dogma. That being said I am trying to steer clear of rehashing the Holy Spirit conversation again. There are other ways to get at the thought of the Bible being an Idol without going down that path.Quite a few people made that assumption. I think it was explicitly said a number of times. There was some musing about how people could reject the Holy Spirit and even a slight trembling for their salvation. There is a big difference between rejecting the Holy Spirit and rejecting Pentecostal dogma.
Not really. The end result of your argument is that there are times or even a level of spiritual maturity that people no longer have to worry about what the Bible says. If you're not being guided by the Bible you must be claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit (who must be telling you something the Bible doesn't) and you're now squarely back to Pentecostal dogma. There is no way to minimize the Bible without falling back on Pentecostalism.Agreed. There is definitely a difference between rejecting the Holy Spirit and Pentecostal Dogma. That being said I am trying to steer clear of rehashing the Holy Spirit conversation again. There are other ways to get at the thought of the Bible being an Idol without going down that path.
Man I love ya but that is some reaching Zec. I'm not sure you read the post. No one is saying you don't have to worry about what the Bible says. Everyone here I hope know that any thing that contradicts the Bible is clearly not from God.Not really. The end result of your argument is that there are times or even a level of spiritual maturity that people no longer have to worry about what the Bible says. If you're not being guided by the Bible you must be claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit (who must be telling you something the Bible doesn't) and you're now squarely back to Pentecostal dogma. There is no way to minimize the Bible without falling back on Pentecostalism.
I love vast generalities like this. The only way I think you could say I have minimized the Bible is if you have made it an Idol. Let me lay this out again. The Bible is Gods word. God will never do anything to contradict it. If any Spirit or thing contradicts it, it is not of God. It is all truth. The question is, Is the Bible God? No. It only leads to God and helps us navigate Life. If you worship the Bible and make it your god and miss Elohim then you have missed it all. Can that happen? Yes, that is what I am using the story of Paul and the Pharisees for. A person can love God's word with all their heart, study it, talk about it, and share it with others but if they miss the God it is about they will split hell wide open. I think that sums it up.There is no way to minimize the Bible without falling back on Pentecostalism.
You have a completely unformed thought here. You are worried about people making the Bible an idol even though you admit it's the Word of God (which is one of the ways Jesus is described), you admit it must be obeyed and never contradicted so how exactly would one make the Bible an idol? IF it's the Word of God, IF it's completely correct and IF it must be obeyed then what is there left that you can do more anyway. An idol is a false god that someone worships, since the Bible tells us how to worship God venerating past the "appropriate" point would be impossible. Obeying it would lead us to God. You can't obey the Bible and somehow miss God. You could misinterpret the Bible and hence make an idol out of your own foolishness. You could misuse the Bible and make an idol out of your own pride, but you can never obey the Bible too much, you can't take it too seriously.Man I love ya but that is some reaching Zec. I'm not sure you read the post. No one is saying you don't have to worry about what the Bible says. Everyone here I hope know that any thing that contradicts the Bible is clearly not from God.
I love vast generalities like this. The only way I think you could say I have minimized the Bible is if you have made it an Idol. Let me lay this out again. The Bible is Gods word. God will never do anything to contradict it. If any Spirit or thing contradicts it, it is not of God. It is all truth. The question is, Is the Bible God? No. It only leads to God and helps us navigate Life. If you worship the Bible and make it your god and miss Elohim then you have missed it all. Can that happen? Yes, that is what I am using the story of Paul and the Pharisees for. A person can love God's word with all their heart, study it, talk about it, and share it with others but if they miss the God it is about they will split hell wide open. I think that sums it up.
Interesting thought. I am convinced that God took Joseph early because he could not have accepted Jesus.
As a pro nomian I love this!!!!IF it's the Word of God, IF it's completely correct and IF it must be obeyed then what is there left that you can do more anyway. An idol is a false god that someone worships, since the Bible tells us how to worship God venerating past the "appropriate" point would be impossible. Obeying it would lead us to God.
The Jews saw the terrible punishments God had rained down on their ancestors for idolatry and disobedience. They came back from Babylon determined to be obedient and they were very successful.