Church/Worship Ideas

[OttoM]

The sources you cited, where in reference to Judah and Israel. Then you wanted to tie that in with a modern group who claim to be hiers of the promise. That is somewhat of a logical disconnect. Paul is the one who claimed that we are the heirs of the promise, so your argument is sort of like the Judas went and hung himself connnection with "Go and do thou likewise."

Paul also said we become 'former gentiles' and grafted into the Olive Tree - which is an old testament reference for the House of Jacob.

Luke 1:33 NKJV
And He (Messiah) will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.

The final few pages in the last book (Revelation) mentions New Jerusalem, which has 12 gates - for the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob).

He said he came only for the lost sheep of Israel. At that time the Northern Kingdom - aka the 10 lost tribes - aka Ephraim (which means fruitful in Hebrew) -- these 10 tribes of Israel are also described as being as numerous as the sand on the seashore - were scattered among the nations of the Earth for roughly 800 years before the Messiah showed up. His plan is to bring back a remnant of Israel and Judah - a new covenant of everlasting peace - the law written on their hearts - and his people being a light to the gentiles - and everyone will know Yahuah - from the least to greatest - and all nations will come up to Zion to learn his law:

Isaiah 2:3 NLT
People from many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of Jacob’s God. There he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the LORD’s teaching (In Hebrew it says Torah) will go out from Zion; his word will go out from Jerusalem.

Micah 4:1-3 NLT
1 In the last days, the mountain of the LORD’s house will be the highest of all— the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship. 2 People from many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of Jacob’s God. There he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the LORD’s teaching will go out from Zion; his word (In the Hebrew it says - TORAH) will go out from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 49:6 NLT
He says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

People send their kids to college - after just 4 years - they sometimes come back woke. Now imagine the Father in Heaven exiling a rebellious and adulterous group to the pagan nations (they were already acting pagan) - and then giving it roughly 800 years - what do you think will happen? Well - we know what happened - Paul confirmed in his letter to the Romans - those gentiles living in Rome were the lost sheep of Israel.

"Go only to the lost sheep of Israel." Where did the apostles go to? Europe/Asia.

A greater exodus is to come for the 10 lost tribes of Israel (Christianity/everyone else) and Judah (Jews).

Jeremiah 16:14 NASB 1995
14 “Therefore behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when it will no longer be said, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt,’ 15 but, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.’ For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.

 

[OttoM]

Because polygyny is seen as abusive and degrading towards women. You'd stand a far better chance of being openly accepted by a church for being homosexual.

Pope Francis formally approves letting priests bless same-sex couples

A document released today insists people seeking God's love and mercy should not be subject to 'an exhaustive moral analysis' to receive it.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Can you imagine him blessing a man with two wives? Hebrews 11 lists many men that demonstrated faith - and had multiple wives. But not one was a homosexual.

Isaiah 5:20 NKJV
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil

Revelation 18:4-5 NKJV
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

The protestant church is not far away. Some will even advertise LGBT flags during pride month - and gladly welcome them inside - but a man with two or more wives will be shown out the door. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

 

[Mark C]

Because polygyny is seen as abusive and degrading towards women. You'd stand a far better chance of being openly accepted by a church for being homosexual.

What does that say about their high regard for His Written Word?

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Paul also said we become 'former gentiles' and grafted into the Olive Tree - which is an old testament reference for the House of Jacob.

Luke 1:33 NKJV
And He (Messiah) will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.

The final few pages in the last book (Revelation) mentions New Jerusalem, which has 12 gates - for the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob).

He said he came only for the lost sheep of Israel. At that time the Northern Kingdom - aka the 10 lost tribes - aka Ephraim (which means fruitful in Hebrew) -- these 10 tribes of Israel are also described as being as numerous as the sand on the seashore - were scattered among the nations of the Earth for roughly 800 years before the Messiah showed up. His plan is to bring back a remnant of Israel and Judah - a new covenant of everlasting peace - the law written on their hearts - and his people being a light to the gentiles - and everyone will know Yahuah - from the least to greatest - and all nations will come up to Zion to learn his law:

Isaiah 2:3 NLT
People from many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of Jacob’s God. There he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the LORD’s teaching (In Hebrew it says Torah) will go out from Zion; his word will go out from Jerusalem.

Micah 4:1-3 NLT
1 In the last days, the mountain of the LORD’s house will be the highest of all— the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship. 2 People from many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of Jacob’s God. There he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the LORD’s teaching will go out from Zion; his word (In the Hebrew it says - TORAH) will go out from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 49:6 NLT
He says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

People send their kids to college - after just 4 years - they sometimes come back woke. Now imagine the Father in Heaven exiling a rebellious and adulterous group to the pagan nations (they were already acting pagan) - and then giving it roughly 800 years - what do you think will happen? Well - we know what happened - Paul confirmed in his letter to the Romans - those gentiles living in Rome were the lost sheep of Israel.

"Go only to the lost sheep of Israel." Where did the apostles go to? Europe/Asia.

A greater exodus is to come for the 10 lost tribes of Israel (Christianity/everyone else) and Judah (Jews).

Jeremiah 16:14 NASB 1995
14 “Therefore behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when it will no longer be said, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt,’ 15 but, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.’ For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.

Ummm! Please don't go there! If you are not aware of the rules, we no longer allow TO debate, and I really don't want to see this thread get locked!

 

[steve]

Ummm! Please don't go there! If you are not aware of the rules, we no longer allow TO debate, and I really don't want to see this thread get locked!

He is not debating.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Well for one thing, all the condemnation about harlotry on the part of Judah and the Northern kingdom, referred to the pre-exilic era, so the claim that it somehow refers to the church that Jesus built and that He said the gates of hell would not prevail against it, are 100% Balderdash!

 

[Mark C]

Well for one thing, all the condemnation about harlotry on the part of Judah and the Northern kingdom, referred to the pre-exilic era, so the claim that it somehow refers to the church that Jesus built and that He said the gates of hell would not prevail against it, are 100% Balderdash!

What gives you the silly (to put it mildly) idea that what Yahushua actually built has any relationship to a Licensed, whoring FAKE?

Do you really think He (the Real One) would be any more welcome in most 501c(3) servants of "another master" any more than a Believer with two (female!) wives?

 

[Michael Moon]

It is important to point out @Daniel DeLuca that many of us use the term the church, without referring to the Church. Just as there are those who cry Lord, Lord, and the False Brethren, there are "churches" that separate themselves from "the Church" by their own unbelief.

There are 10 Virgins, 5 are foolish and 5 are wise, but they are all invited to be wise.

The "Whore Church" is not the Assembly built by Yeshua, the Kingdom that the gates of hell stands no chance against. Rather, there are people who will claim to be members of that True Church, and therefore claim to be brides of the Messiah, who are not truly in relationship with Him. These foolish virgins (the "Whore Church) are invited to seek reconciliation and if they don't, they will not be brought to the wedding feast.

 

[FollowingHim]

The problem though is that everyone has a differing understanding of who is in the Church, and @Mark C in particular comes across as having an extremely narrow definition of this (which may be similar to your perspective also @Michael Moon, I'm just not as familiar with your views as I haven't been talking with you for so many years, so I'll address Mark's viewpoint).

Mark appears to reject the establishment churches entirely as being false, a fake mimicking the real thing, and emphasises the Church as being those who have (1) come out of the establishment churches and chosen to be separate, and (2) hold the "correct" theological position on those matters he finds most critical. In other words, a very small group of people.

A more standard Protestant view, which I and I expect @Daniel DeLuca espouse, is to see the Church as being all those who are genuinely attempting to follow Jesus as Lord, regardless of whether they are inside or outside of the establishment churches. And to see the establishment churches themselves as each a genuine attempt to follow Jesus as Lord (but with errors that differ from denomination to denomination). Not a fake mimic of the real thing, but each a genuine branch of the real Church, just broken or soiled in various ways.

Accordingly, labelling mainstream churches in their entirety as false means rejecting many individuals whom we (and to be honest most Christians and most readers of this forum) would see as genuine and sincere members of the Church. This is offensive to a high proportion of our readership.

Personally, I also think that people with such attitudes waste far too much energy on tearing down other believers - on infighting - when we should be directing our energy outwardly. It's the difference between fighting a civil war and fighting a war of conquest - our job is to conquer the world for Christ (or at least defend that which He has), if we tear our brothers apart instead then we are simply doing Satans work for him.

 

[frederick]

Personally, I also think that people with such attitudes waste far too much energy on tearing down other believers - on infighting - when we should be directing our energy outwardly. It's the difference between fighting a civil war and fighting a war of conquest - our job is to conquer the world for Christ (or at least defend that which He has), if we tear our brothers apart instead then we are simply doing Satans work for him.

Proverbs 6:16, 19 These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: ...And one who sows discord among brethren.
James 4:11, 12 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

 

[Mark C]

Not entirely, Samuel, but at least closer...

Mark appears to reject the establishment churches entirely as being false, a fake mimicking the real thing, and emphasises the Church as being those who have (1) come out of the establishment churches and chosen to be separate, and (2) hold the "correct" theological position on those matters he finds most critical. In other words, a very small group of people.

Because, "narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Accordingly, labelling mainstream churches in their entirety as false...

Not "entirely false," even the Far Left doesn't fit that. But the 80/20 Rule I cite frequently: Mixing a few lies with Truth, "leavens the whole lump."

I think it's fair to say that everyone here recognizes at least a BIT of that leaven, or they wouldn't be searching.

...This is offensive to a high proportion of our readership.

Yahushua warned that "many" would be offended at Him, and what He really said. Anyone who has been rejected by the 'whore church' for reading even that bit of His Word correctly that deals simply with marriage, alone, knows that. Which was the purpose of this thread.

 

[Mark C]

Related question: How much adultery should a husband tolerate?

How much should He? Is that 'offensive'?

 

[Mark C]

This has been addressed in other (non-'torah') threads, but is very relevant here:

Mark appears to reject the establishment churches entirely as being false...

A 501c(3) mark (in the US) is a litmus test:

"You cannot serve two masters." (Ask Kalifornia, during COVID. When the creator of the incorporated entity says "wear a mask or shut down," the creation MUST obey. Paul, too, made that clear.)

 

[DougInAlabama]

My first wife and I will celebrate our 30th anniversary this year. Our 2nd wife has been with us for 16 years. We worship at home; we attend some organized services on occasion. I believe polygyny is an accepted form of marriage in the eyes of God, but I do not believe it is necessary for salvation and therefore I have no interest in making life more difficult for my family by sharing our personal lives with people who would find it a stumbling block. Matthew 18: 19-20 is our cornerstone, but we don't isolate ourselves from others who believe in the Gospel over one issue, otherwise I would never attend. It's not being untruthful to not share everything about yourself. I definitely occasionally bristle when I hear the modern interpretation of marriage from the pulpit. If I know ahead of time "today's topic is marriage" I will worship at home.

 

[Joleneakamama]

I definitely occasionally bristle when I hear the modern interpretation of marriage from the pulpit. If I know ahead of time "today's topic is marriage" I will worship at home.

Smart move!

My husband was just reading a book The Salt Covenant and commented on how badly so many want to make polygyny adultery. They have accepted monogamy only, and their minds and hearts go to great lengths to make EVERYTHING ELSE conform to the wrong idea they have accepted as true. This man was writing about the blessed patriarchs, yet his view of marriage would condemn them.

My first wife and I will celebrate our 30th anniversary this year.

Congratulations!

 

[frederick]

My first wife and I will celebrate our 30th anniversary this year. Our 2nd wife has been with us for 16 years.

That's an awesome testimony. May it continue to blossom. Shalom

 

[The Revolting Man]

It is important to point out @Daniel DeLuca that many of us use the term the church, without referring to the Church. Just as there are those who cry Lord, Lord, and the False Brethren, there are "churches" that separate themselves from "the Church" by their own unbelief.

There are 10 Virgins, 5 are foolish and 5 are wise, but they are all invited to be wise.

The "Whore Church" is not the Assembly built by Yeshua, the Kingdom that the gates of hell stands no chance against. Rather, there are people who will claim to be members of that True Church, and therefore claim to be brides of the Messiah, who are not truly in relationship with Him. These foolish virgins (the "Whore Church) are invited to seek reconciliation and if they don't, they will not be brought to the wedding feast.

The issue is that no one here, not me, not you and not @Mark C and @Earth_is- are qualified to indict the “whore church.” We’re told to let the wheat grow up with the tares lest we damage the wheat.

The instinct instead appears to just destroy everything in a sneering and quixotic attempt to prove one’s own superiority. So far all it has done is prove a few’s myopic delusions. As soon as I see the phrase I know I’m dealing with someone far more concerned with denigrating his neighbor than working out his own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Mark C]

The issue is that no one here, not me, not you and not @Mark C and @Earth_is- are qualified to indict the “whore church.” We’re told to let the wheat grow up with the tares lest we damage the wheat.

We are NOT told to grow up WITH the tares, or become them.

We are told to "come out of her," and not participate in her sins.

For "me and my house," I choose not to stand on top of a hill next to a fool waving a metal pole when there's a lightning storm in progress.

 

[The Revolting Man]

We are NOT told to grow up WITH the tares, or become them.

We are told to "come out of her," and not participate in her sins.

For "me and my house," I choose not to stand on top of a hill next to a fool waving a metal pole when there's a lightning storm in progress.

Maybe but sure you spend a lot of time telling everyone else what they should be doing too.

 

[Mark C]

Maybe but sure you spend a lot of time telling everyone else what they should be doing too.

Not nearly as much time as you, but I don't censor them while I'm at it.