Tradition also says the "erev rav" great multitude of Egyptian Converts were primarily the ones responsible for wanting the golden calf...
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Could the USA Be The Real, Regathered, Biblical Israel?
- Thread starter Joleneakamama
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Tradition also says the "erev rav" great multitude of Egyptian Converts were primarily the ones responsible for wanting the golden calf...
Ok I'll stir the po
As I see it (not set in stone interested in feedback)
there may be problems from a covenant perspective.
Many commands regarding holidays say that "nichratah hanefesh hahiy mey-ameiaH" that soul will be cut off from her people ... which soul? the one of the person who does not keep the feasts.
Since the vast majority of Christian history is dominated by the Eastern Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church; I think it's fair to say that any Jewish (Israelite etc) souls who were absorbed by being descendants from mixed marriages, were definitely not keeping the feasts. They are therefor "cut of from their people" i.e. the covenant status of their tribe is not passed down nor any of it's benefits. So while there may very well be some Jewish blood in the church, much of that blood comes from "souls" which are cut off from Israel. Compound that with the rampant idolotry in the majority of Christendom throughout history (not counting the remnant Kehilah in hiding etc).
So if we now say, the remnant Kehilah was the only true legitimate assembly of G-d then we have much more manageable numbers of Jews in the congregation of believers. This allows us to get at a much more reasonable number of members of the various tribes in the body of Messiah so that Revelations 7 referencing just 12,000 members from each tribe among the faithful actually makes sense. Today there are roughly 250k self proclaiming "Messianic Jews", many of these claims are dubious.
A grandparent who was a Jew for example and that grand parent was a liberal who never kept shabbat or any holidays and was therefore "cut off from her people" multiple times.
Revelations 2&3 mentions how there are many who "say they are Jews but are not..."
The tribal affiliation and promises are not something that just exist if there is 1% blood line in an individual. The soul line must not have been "cut off from her people". This makes a nice harmony with the numbers we see in Revelations.
Pertinent verse example for a soul being "cut off from Israel":
שִׁבְעַ֤ת יָמִים֙ מַצּ֣וֹת תֹּאכֵ֔לוּ אַ֚ךְ בַּיּ֣וֹם הָרִאשׁ֔וֹן תַּשְׁבִּ֥יתוּ שְּׂאֹ֖ר מִבָּתֵּיכֶ֑ם כִּ֣י׀ כָּל־אֹכֵ֣ל חָמֵ֗ץ וְנִכְרְתָ֞ה הַנֶּ֤פֶשׁ הַהִוא֙ מִיִּשְׂרָאֵ֔ל מִיּ֥וֹם הָרִאשֹׁ֖ן עַד־י֥וֹם הַשְּׁבִעִֽי׃
Exodus 12:15 regarding Unleavened bread
"7 days of Matsah you will eat from the 1st day you shall cease yeast from your houses because anyone who eats Chamets (something with yeast) that soul will be cut off from Israel from the 1st day until the 7th day"
Is a cut off Israelite no longer is an Israelite? Are the descendants of someone cut off from Israel Israelites? what about their descendants descendants descendants ....
OK so of course it's possible for G-d to reconnect a soul that's been "cut off".
The question is, after x number of generations, if the soul isn't born into that covenant and is not part of it, will there be a motivation for G-d to reconnect that soul to Israel for the sake of tribal benefits? The circumsion is just a sign right? There is no dividing wall any more.
I mean the nations who accept Yeshua are part of the commonwealth of Israel anyway aren't they? They are just tribe-less as I see it (no specific blessings for Dan, or Asher or whomever).
Or is it that the nations have only started the process of joining Israel and they must live faithfully a certain way to be considered Israel? I.e. not hating Israel or actively working against Israel as the largest church in Canada has done.
Aren't the number of souls from each tribe limited to 12,000?
Enjoy
OK I'll stir the pot a bit.
As I see it (not set in stone interested in feedback)
there may be problems from a covenant perspective.
Many commands regarding holidays say that "nichratah hanefesh hahiy mey-ameiaH" that soul will be cut off from her people ... which soul? the one of the person who does not keep the feasts.
Since the vast majority of Christian history is dominated by the Eastern Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church; I think it's fair to say that any Jewish (Israelite etc) souls who were absorbed by being descendants from mixed marriages, were definitely not keeping the feasts. They are therefor "cut of from their people" i.e. the covenant status of their tribe is not passed down nor any of it's benefits. So while there may very well be some Jewish blood in the church, much of that blood comes from "souls" which are cut off from Israel. Compound that with the rampant idolotry in the majority of Christendom throughout history (not counting the remnant Kehilah in hiding etc).
So if we now say, the remnant Kehilah was the only true legitimate assembly of G-d then we have much more manageable numbers of Jews in the congregation of believers. This allows us to get at a much more reasonable number of members of the various tribes in the body of Messiah so that Revelations 7 referencing just 12,000 members from each tribe among the faithful actually makes sense. Today there are roughly 250k self proclaiming "Messianic Jews", many of these claims are dubious.
A grandparent who was a Jew for example and that grand parent was a liberal who never kept shabbat or any holidays and was therefore "cut off from her people" multiple times.
Revelations 2&3 mentions how there are many who "say they are Jews but are not..."
The tribal affiliation and promises are not something that just exist if there is 1% blood line in an individual. The soul line must not have been "cut off from her people". This makes a nice harmony with the numbers we see in Revelations.
Pertinent verse example for a soul being "cut off from Israel":
שִׁבְעַ֤ת יָמִים֙ מַצּ֣וֹת תֹּאכֵ֔לוּ אַ֚ךְ בַּיּ֣וֹם הָרִאשׁ֔וֹן תַּשְׁבִּ֥יתוּ שְּׂאֹ֖ר מִבָּתֵּיכֶ֑ם כִּ֣י׀ כָּל־אֹכֵ֣ל חָמֵ֗ץ וְנִכְרְתָ֞ה הַנֶּ֤פֶשׁ הַהִוא֙ מִיִּשְׂרָאֵ֔ל מִיּ֥וֹם הָרִאשֹׁ֖ן עַד־י֥וֹם הַשְּׁבִעִֽי׃
Exodus 12:15 regarding Unleavened bread
"7 days of Matsah you will eat from the 1st day you shall cease yeast from your houses because anyone who eats Chamets (something with yeast) that soul will be cut off from Israel from the 1st day until the 7th day"
Is a cut off Israelite no longer is an Israelite? Are the descendants of someone cut off from Israel Israelites? what about their descendants descendants descendants ....
OK so of course it's possible for G-d to reconnect a soul that's been "cut off".
The question is, after x number of generations, if the soul isn't born into that covenant and is not part of it, will there be a motivation for G-d to reconnect that soul to Israel for the sake of tribal benefits? The circumsion is just a sign right? There is no dividing wall any more.
I mean the nations who accept Yeshua are part of the commonwealth of Israel anyway aren't they? They are just tribe-less as I see it (no specific blessings for Dan, or Asher or whomever).
Or is it that the nations have only started the process of joining Israel and they must live faithfully a certain way to be considered Israel? I.e. not hating Israel or actively working against Israel as the largest church in Canada has done.
Aren't the number of souls from each tribe limited to 12,000?
Enjoy
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This is using a modern church term "converts" in a way that to me makes no sense. There may have been some Egyptian's married to Israelites, but I am not aware of any scriptures calling them converts. Again Israelite is a familial term and means descendants of Israel the man.
The Israelites certainly proved throughout history they were capable of sinning, and whoring after other gods. We don't need to blame it on converts.
These are two separate issues. One has no historical or scriptural foundation, and the other does. The "also" connecting them does not belong. The two houses and their histories are not theories, they are scriptural facts.
Many arguments can be very persuasive, when you only hear one side. People believe what they want to believe, and not all are logical or objective about things.
Much of biblical history is a tale of two brothers descendants, because it deals with the people of the birthright, Israel, and the people who according to God hate them with a perpetual hatred.
I can tell by some comments that the suggested reading was not done. Please read the Jewish Encyclopedia's entry on Edom/Edomite. This will give you historical facts documenting Edomite occupation of the ancient High places like Jerusalem, and the fact that it was Edomites on the throne from Antipater to the fall of Jerusalem. Maybe people are not familiar with the different prophetic futures for these "two manners of people," but they are as different as night and day. The entire book of Obadiah, and many other chapters in the prophets are prophesies about the destruction of these people that God says He is against. He calls them a destroying mountain. Again, mountains in prophesy are nations, and God looks at the descendants of Israel as a nation, (please read Jer 31:31-37 ) and He also looks at Esau's descendants as a nation.
Jesus told some who hated him to their face that they were NOT HIS SHEEP, as in not Israelites, (and it didn't matter a bit how well they thought they were keeping the law!) He said His sheep hear His voice, and He knows them, and they follow Him. It is then reasonable to conclude that people who hate Him, and teach their children to hate Him, people who hate christianity and believe it is a false religion, and Jesus was a false messiah, are not Israelites, especially in light of the historical fact that these two manner of people(Israel and Edom) were mixed, with no distinction being made between them, in Judea, at the time of Christ!
Either YHWH speaking though Jesus lied, or Israel is christian/messianic. Either YHWH is an impotent God and failed to make that covenant with BOTH HOUSES, or BOTH HOUSES, Israel and Judah, are in what is commonly referred to as the church.
This is NOT replacement theology, the real replacement theology is saying that people rejecting Yeshua/Jesus are His chosen people. There is simply no scriptural support for that teaching.
If there were no Edomite Jews, no Herod, and no people that Jesus clearly denounced and identified for us as NOT MY SHEEP, then we could assume that people descended from the Judean Jews were actually descendants of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, but in light of these historical facts, and verses in the bible, would that be a reasonable or scripturally supported assumption?
The house of Judah possessing that land was CONDITIONAL! Jeremiah chapter seven 6-7. proves this. Jesus quoted verse 11 when He cleansed the temple, and then later He stood over Jerusalem and confirmed the sentence that was promised if they did not repent "Your house is left unto you DESOLATE! (Like Shiloh after they trusted in the ARK instead of the living God) Jerusalem was an IDOL to the ancient Israelites, and it is an IDOL to many christians today.
God told the people through the prophets what He was going to do, before He did it. This is why I don't buy into "lost tribes" being found, because they were never lost! They were sown throughout all the earth like YHWH said He would do (Jer31;27 and Hosea 2;23). The ten tribes were scattered, but came back in in biblical times. Paul in Romans quotes Hosea, and applied the prophesies to and about those ten tribes TO THE GENTILES. Ezekiel's two sticks prophesied the TWO HOUSES of Israel and Judah being reunited, Hosea 1:11 said that these people who were not His people (the cast off ten tribes) would be called the sons of the living God, and that Israel and Judah would come together, and appoint themselves one head. All these prophesies were fulfilled almost 2000 years ago, when the disciples following Jesus' instructions went to those lost sheep of the house of Israel, and they converted IN HUGE NUMBERS! This is why only a few years after Jesus' death, there were ARMIES marching under the cross, and Rome was unable to stamp out Christianity, though they sent their best and most seasoned military personell to attempt it.
On the permanence of the covenant, it was broken by both houses. YHWH in His mercy left a remnant of Judah, but many of the house of Judah also went into captivity with the ten tribes. That remnant was so that Yeshua could be born under the law, and redeem the people. The new covenant describes a born again believer, Jer 31:31 says that new covenant would be with BOTH HOUSES OF ISRAEL, and the terms and conditions of this covenant are different. He said He would write His law on their hearts, put His spirit in them, and be their God.
In one of the prophesies in Isaiah God said to Israel that he would slay them, and call His servants by a new name. This puzzled me for a time, but I believe He is talking about Israelite converts being baptized, as it is symbolic of the believer being buried with Christ, and then raised to new life. The man of sin DIES, and that believer comes up out of the water a new creature in Christ.
Again, was God impotent and did He prophesy something false, or are PEOPLE teaching error, when they claim that Judah rejected Christ? Was Paul a true apostle? He said He is not a Jew that is one outwardly....this was instructing people in how to identify a "Wolf in Sheep's clothing" (as in an Edomite) God didn't make any mistakes of Identity when He wrote His law on the Israelite's hearts! And Paul recognized that God had done it to the Gentile descendants of the ten tribes (see Romans 2 :14-15) He contrasts Israel and the Gentiles not because they are different people, and Gentiles are not Jacob's descendants, but because the ten tribes could no longer use the name Israel, as they were divorced from YHWH.
I have noticed a trend in the Jews I have have interacted with online. None of them want to share status as true believers/faithful followers/righteous living people, with a few million gentile christians. There was one man who even brought up the parable off the prodigal son, and identified that son as the ten tribes, but did not want to concede that the returning son in the parable was received back by the father without doing any work, or works. This is what caused some of Judah to stumble, the gentiles being redeemed, and accepted by YHWH, without having to keep the law.
YHWH told the people they would LOSE their feasts, and sabaths, new moons etc. (Hosea 2:11) He also said He would settle them better then their previous estates. How would a return to a land they left behind two millenia ago, be doing better to them then at their beginnings? And as already covered, the USA fits the description of the land invaded by Gog and Magog, and that land never can!
The people behind the creation of the Zionist state of Israel are imposters, that only pretend to be our allies. (I am not stating that all Jews living there are not Israelites. We can only judge by fruits and accept all who come to Christ) The Israeli government are NOT friends of the American people, but serve only Israeli interests. The Edomites called Jews are the rich imposters that revelation mentions. They are working toward a one world order, and have committed countless acts of war against all peoples of the world. The Bolshevik revolution is only one example. Every war for centuries has been fomented and waged to further their agenda, and for a fairly recent example of how they will stab us in the back, research what happened to the USS Liberty. There are enemies of the American people in the US government, and they covered up the crime of Israel, in attacking and trying to sink an American communications ship.
There is still a documentary called "The Money Masters" out there that will show you how when you follow the money, you get to the root of the evil. But many people would rather listen to false prophets... I know....as I have a lot of mormon family.
There is a book online called "The Mystery of the Gentiles" written by Ted R. Weiland, and it is extremely well documented, and has a whole chapter about the Edomites and cites Jewish sources to confirm facts like "Edom is in modern Jewry." It is shocking what their Talmud teaches about how to treat people that are not Jews, and christians specifically, but it shouldn't be. Jesus told those Pharisees and teachers that "You make the law of God of no effect by your traditions." Those traditions of the elders were what became the Babylonian Talmud, after Jerusalem was destroyed.
On keeping the law, Paul said that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes. We know he didn't mean that murder, adultery, or any other such thing is acceptable, but rather that our righteousness in God's eyes is dependent on our acceptance of Jesus, and us being under His blood. There is a modern trend towards being Torah observant among Christians, and if believers want to work toward keeping Torah as a way of showing their love for Him, there can certainly be nothing wrong with being lawful! We all work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The problem comes when one decides to judge others, based on those works of the law, and make the keeping of the law more important then the acceptance of Christ. Jesus said "Those who are not against us are on our side." But no matter how well one keeps the law, "No man cometh unto the father, but by the son" and being against Christ makes you antichrist. This is simple.
On the numbers in Revelation... 12 is a number that represents completion. I believe in a very big God, and His son who told His followers "In my Father's house are many mansions..... and I go to prepare a place for you" (Jn 14:2) So I don't believe He needs to "cut the numbers down" in any way. Doesn't the great commission look like a fools errand, if only 12,000 are going to make the final cut? Why would He send believers out and tell them to make disciples of all the nations, if only a few thousand people, still called Jews, and living UNDER the OLD (broken long ago, and according to Paul passing away back then) covenant are going to make it? There are verses in the scripture that support our view that Israel was not assimilated by the nations, but rather that by intermarriage with the other nations Israel assimilated THEM! Verses that tell Israel "Your descendants will inherit the nations." This view is also supported by Jesus' statement to His apostles "You will not have gone over all the CITIES OF ISRAEL, before the son of man be come" So where are these cities of Israel, and has it taken this long for people to go over them?
The wrong search parameters will not find the right people. Anyone see Disney's Sleeping Beauty? Like Malificent's evil minions spending 16 years looking for a baby, christians have been looking for tribes of Israelites, instead of Israelite servants of the Most High, going by their NEW NAME.
Please, if you have a problem with what I have written bring the scripture that you believe has been overlooked, or not accounted for, or at least look at the material in the Jewish Encyclopedia. Because truth doesn't change just because someone doesn't like it, and beliefs not founded on scripture are worthless.
Like I told Chuck Missler, I am open to a better understanding.
Why do I think I remember God saying Edom would be totally destroyed and wiped off the face of the earth. Someone help me out here.
Here you go from quick internet search. Ezekial 35:15, Obadiah 1:18. Here's a paper written by Thomas Williamson.
Edom in Bible Prophecy
Thanks NetwatchR, that's what I thought. Read that article Jolene. There is no reason to think Edom hasn't already been punished or that Judah is in hiding. Calling modern Jews Edom puts you in some very uncomfortable company and tortures a simple reading of scripture as well as would give the pagan cause to boast against God's promises. I would abandon this line of reasoning all together. It adds nothing to the faith and risks quite a lot.
The Jews are who they say they are and if God has a beef with them then He can handle it without my help. I will bless them and I expect God will keep His promise to bless me in return.
All the scriptures I'm standing on are still there. Where are yours?
Your scriptures don't say what you claim they say. Hitler said what you claim those scriptures say. Islamists say what you claim those scriptures say. But the scripture don't say ,"Hey guys, modern Jews are a gigantic pagan fraud and Gods promises of an everlasting covenant and to always have an heir for King David were a lie." It doesn't say that somehow the Edomites who were wiped out centuries before, snuck back in after Christ and somehow replaced all the real Jews (who were needed to make sure Christ was legitimate) in some kind of amazingly well hidden body snatcher maneuver. Where were the Edomites hiding all this time? How did they disappear all of those real Jews and where did they go? How did no one notice? I mean not even a mention anywhere in history? Hey Claudius, did you notice the Goldsteins look a little different? I asked for a bagel and they looked at me like I was speaking Greek!
Come on Jolene, this is incredibly weak sauce. Your proof texts refer to all sorts of things, mostly spiritual. None of them refer to an accursed race, the Edomites, being blessed with the many of the most important thinkers, scientist and artists in history. Can you look at how influential the Jewish people have been and claim they are cursed Edom? How they've been preserved against all odds time and time again and believe they're a people God has marked for extinction? A god who behaves like you claim God has behaved for two thousand years would be an idiot and a liar and not worth worshipping.
I am very shocked to read this kind of tripe on this forum.
Come on Jolene, this is incredibly weak sauce. Your proof texts refer to all sorts of things, mostly spiritual. None of them refer to an accursed race, the Edomites, being blessed with the many of the most important thinkers, scientist and artists in history. Can you look at how influential the Jewish people have been and claim they are cursed Edom? How they've been preserved against all odds time and time again and believe they're a people God has marked for extinction? A god who behaves like you claim God has behaved for two thousand years would be an idiot and a liar and not worth worshipping.
I am very shocked to read this kind of tripe on this forum.
It looks like you need some help with reading comprehension. For starters I did cite many verses you are welcome to look up in your own scriptures, (if you think mine are different) and I asked for people disagreeing with what I wrote to bring scripture to the discussion, not just opinion.
Did you read the article that net watcher posted a link to? I ask because it actually affirms what I have been saying. This is from that article linked above.
Quote:
If the Edomites are not Arabs, then what did happen to them? We find the answer to that in the “Antiquities of the Jews” by the reliable ancient Jewish historian Josephus, writing of Jewish conquests in the 2nd Century BC:
“Hyrcanus took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would circumcise their genitals, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, and the rest of the Jewish ways of living; at which time therefore this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews." Chapter IX, (2).
William Whiston, translator of Josephus, adds this note: “This account of the Idumeans admitting circumcision, and the entire Jewish law, from this time, or from the days of Hyrcanus, is confirmed by their entire history afterwards. This, in the opinion of Josephus, made them proselytes of justice, or entire Jews.” Since that time, the Edomites have been part of the Jewish nation.
End article quote. Emphasis added.
You have now been given two sources besides the words of Christ about "Wolves in sheep's clothing" and the words He spoke in revelation about Jews who call themselves Jews, and are not.
God prophesied a NAME CHANGE for ISRAEL. The bible I read has foot notes at that passage in Isaiah, directing the reader to the verse in Acts that states "The disciples were first called CHRISTIANS at Antioch."
If your friend John changed his name to Tom, you would not say that Tom REPLACED John. The church did not replace Israel, they ARE Israel!
The Edomites also are called by a different name. Since they converted to Judaism, before the time of Christ, and are not the Israelites that followed Jesus into the renewed covenant, they are still known as Jews today.
I never once even hinted at God or the scriptures lying. I have only tried to point out where people have apparently missed significant details effecting their understanding, and asked people to correct me WITH SCRIPTURE if they believe I am in error.
The scripture doesn't say the Edomites have been wiped out, and neither does historical accounts. That was the ignorant opinion of an author who apparently does not know that ite is a suffix that means a descendant of the one who's name precedes it. You could call an Israelite a monkey's uncle, but it would do nothing to change the genes.
God preserved some of the Caananites way back when too, for His purposes, to test His people, and to chastise His people. The fact that the Caananites were preserved had nothing to do with righteousness on their part. I still maintain that there is no scriptural reason to call an anti Christ Jew an Israelite, or one of God's chosen people. When God chooses and gathers someone, it is into the body of Christ. He talked about gathering others TO CHRIST then those He had already gathered, in Isaiah.
The real descendants of the house of Judah converted to christianity, with the house of Israel ...like God said they would, and left the synagogues to the Jews who were not sheep. Those still called Jews wrote the Talmud, and taught everyone they could convert every blasphemous lie they could about Yeshua. How is that being a blessing? Christians say that Christ is the blessing, but He did not come from the progenitors of the anti Christ Jews.
we are admonished to prove all things, and hold fast to that which is good. I cannot change what I believe unless I can see a more reasonable position that doesn't require ignoring or tossing out any part of scripture. Time will prove all things, and we can agree to disagree until then. I must say I am disappointed though, when the substance of the arguments you bring resemble that of a Christian's attempt to prove polygyny is wrong... Including charging me with things I never said, or even implied.
I'm not going to express an opinion either way on whether Jolene's views presented here are correct. I just want to point out that, by my reading, she is not in any way claiming that God lied, she just interprets scripture differently to how others do. She is also not claiming that God abandoned the Jews, rather she is proposing that God has always stuck by them - but they aren't quite the same people who others may believe them to be. These opinions are controversial, and as I said I'm not expressing an opinion on their correctness. But they are not anti-God or anti-Jewish - they may look that way emotionally when read from the perspective of many readers, but I do not believe they are intended that way by the author. I thought I better state this because I can see the potential for this thread to slip into an emotive argument, and that would be counterproductive.
Jolene is giving us a different angle to look at prophecy from, and it is always profitable to look at things from a different angle, regardless of whether you ultimately choose to accept or reject that line of reasoning, because the act of looking from a different perspective prompts deeper thought. I learnt an enormous amount about the Bible years ago by sitting through lectures that in my opinion were very dodgy theologically, but got me reading scripture to figure out whether the speaker was correct or not! Controversial views can be valuable to ponder calmly.
Jolene is giving us a different angle to look at prophecy from, and it is always profitable to look at things from a different angle, regardless of whether you ultimately choose to accept or reject that line of reasoning, because the act of looking from a different perspective prompts deeper thought. I learnt an enormous amount about the Bible years ago by sitting through lectures that in my opinion were very dodgy theologically, but got me reading scripture to figure out whether the speaker was correct or not! Controversial views can be valuable to ponder calmly.
I agree with everything Samuel has said, but I'd like to add a few thoughts.
One of the things I really like about this group of believers is that we all don't come from the same background. In fact, we are quite varied in our histories, paths, and current beliefs with but just a few things in common for the bulk of us: we are sincere in our desire to understand what the Bible really says, we believe that polygyny is a righteous way to live, and we believe Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah.
I really like the different debates that occur here, especially those backed by scripture and the respective analysis of scripture. Even more so, I like it when during or after a debate someone's mind is changed and they begin to see the debated point in a different light, which I think is a great sign of those willing to learn and aren't just blindly stuck in their beliefs. On the other hand, we don't always see that, and that isn't wrong either, as long as we still respect others right to have their own well-formed opinions.
I honestly think this forum functions better as a Berean-like church than most groups I've been in. I often think of us as folks sitting around a very large table (stretching over the globe
) with our Bibles in hand ready to rightfully dissect the scriptures. It is that sort of willingness to participate in such debates that is demonstrative of who we are in my opinion.
One of the things I really like about this group of believers is that we all don't come from the same background. In fact, we are quite varied in our histories, paths, and current beliefs with but just a few things in common for the bulk of us: we are sincere in our desire to understand what the Bible really says, we believe that polygyny is a righteous way to live, and we believe Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah.
I really like the different debates that occur here, especially those backed by scripture and the respective analysis of scripture. Even more so, I like it when during or after a debate someone's mind is changed and they begin to see the debated point in a different light, which I think is a great sign of those willing to learn and aren't just blindly stuck in their beliefs. On the other hand, we don't always see that, and that isn't wrong either, as long as we still respect others right to have their own well-formed opinions.
I honestly think this forum functions better as a Berean-like church than most groups I've been in. I often think of us as folks sitting around a very large table (stretching over the globe
) with our Bibles in hand ready to rightfully dissect the scriptures. It is that sort of willingness to participate in such debates that is demonstrative of who we are in my opinion.
I'm sorry guys but I can't act like this is okay. It's not. I will reread that article because when I read it I came away with the impression that the author was firmly on the side that Edom could not be modern Jews.
I will bow out of this because I am only going to get put back on probation if I engage any further. My parting shot will be that this is one of the most tortured, tangled readings of history and scripture I've ever come across. It flies in the face of reason and evidence and would make vast swaths of a scripture void, irrelevant and frankly silly.
I will not play the moral equivalency game with this one. If anyone wants to line up with the forces that have followed this line of reasoning over the centuries feel free. I think you do a grave disservice to the Faith, to God and to your own potential blessings.
I will bow out of this because I am only going to get put back on probation if I engage any further. My parting shot will be that this is one of the most tortured, tangled readings of history and scripture I've ever come across. It flies in the face of reason and evidence and would make vast swaths of a scripture void, irrelevant and frankly silly.
I will not play the moral equivalency game with this one. If anyone wants to line up with the forces that have followed this line of reasoning over the centuries feel free. I think you do a grave disservice to the Faith, to God and to your own potential blessings.
I think he's referring to the great multitude that wasn't included in the count
Colossians 3:11-
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Put on therefore, as the elect of God,
Romans 9:7-
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 3:16, 26-29
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
According to Paul, the blessings and cursings that so many love to quote ultimately center around the singular seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ. I cannot support or bless anyone who is diametrically opposed to my Adonai Jesus Christ. The claim that they are of the descent of Abraham has no bearing unless they are also partakers of his faith in the promised seed. Jesus Christ.
Matthew 3:5
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I can appreciate your concern with this as I have been where you are. I'm not sure I am comfortable with associating all Jews with Edom as I haven't seen the proof for it.
I am decidedly not antiSemitic and have great regard for Jewish brethren. However I have had to retreat to a position of neutrality due to hatred on an insane scale toward the person of Jesus by many in Jewry. As I cannot bless that, and neither can I curse those hateful people just to be on the safe side, I have adopted a position that God will have to sort it out.
I am also decidedly not a Replacement Theology fan. So much wrong with that position. However I am convinced that the seed promised to Abraham was Jesus Christ of whom Isaac was a fulfillment in part. Abraham couldn't be reconciled to the Father through faith in Isaac, only through Christ.
I was reading 1 Corinthians 10 today.
It starts off affirming that they were descendants of Israel, but then Paul reminds them of all the Israelites who were judged and eliminated in the wilderness, and all those who sinned, and died for their sins.
The difference I see between those times and now, is that the people then acknowledged the hand of the Almighty in the deaths of those Israelites, and it was used to motivate them to greater diligence in being faithful to YHWH.
I see a different trend in modern times. People today want to blame individuals for things that happen, (like Hitler) but there is no one asking whether or not the people on the short end of events were righteous.....or pleasing to YHWH.
If an abortionist or homosexual is killed, christans of today condemn the one who killed them.
I am not saying that anyone, or everyone who kills someone was doing YHWH's will, only that people no longer acknowlege His hand in all things.
A homosexual needs to repent, and come to Christ, and so does every other person. Blessing them in their homosexuality and letting them feel good about who they are, would not be helping them in any way.
I see Jews that are anti Christ in the same light. If keeping the law was not enough to make anyone righteous in biblical times, it is not enough today.
That often quoted verse used to scare people, where YHWH said He would "bless them that bless you." who is the you? Abraham! It was specific in that verse to the man called a friend of YHWH, and I don't believe YHWH would have blessed Abraham either, if he had been wicked.
I absolutely believe this is THE seed that is a blessing to all the families of the earth.
That said, Deut 28:45-46 actually states that the curses were to be upon the Israelite people and their descendants for a sign and a wonder, forever.
Then in Deut 36 there is a promise to circumcise the Israelite's hearts, and the hearts of their descendants.
YHWH does keep His promises.
Let's say for the sake of argument, that modern Jews are Israelites.
If they are rejecting Christ, and suffering the curses for that, shouldn't we see that as YHWH's will?
Would it be wise for us to try and bless someone He is not blessing?
And if they are believers, we are already one with them, and we are all part of the body of Christ, and should bear one another's burdens.
I am not without care for others, but believers need to offer them real help, in Yeshua/Jesus, not just help feeling good about who they are without Him.
It starts off affirming that they were descendants of Israel, but then Paul reminds them of all the Israelites who were judged and eliminated in the wilderness, and all those who sinned, and died for their sins.
The difference I see between those times and now, is that the people then acknowledged the hand of the Almighty in the deaths of those Israelites, and it was used to motivate them to greater diligence in being faithful to YHWH.
I see a different trend in modern times. People today want to blame individuals for things that happen, (like Hitler) but there is no one asking whether or not the people on the short end of events were righteous.....or pleasing to YHWH.
If an abortionist or homosexual is killed, christans of today condemn the one who killed them.
I am not saying that anyone, or everyone who kills someone was doing YHWH's will, only that people no longer acknowlege His hand in all things.
A homosexual needs to repent, and come to Christ, and so does every other person. Blessing them in their homosexuality and letting them feel good about who they are, would not be helping them in any way.
I see Jews that are anti Christ in the same light. If keeping the law was not enough to make anyone righteous in biblical times, it is not enough today.
That often quoted verse used to scare people, where YHWH said He would "bless them that bless you." who is the you? Abraham! It was specific in that verse to the man called a friend of YHWH, and I don't believe YHWH would have blessed Abraham either, if he had been wicked.
I absolutely believe this is THE seed that is a blessing to all the families of the earth.
That said, Deut 28:45-46 actually states that the curses were to be upon the Israelite people and their descendants for a sign and a wonder, forever.
Then in Deut 36 there is a promise to circumcise the Israelite's hearts, and the hearts of their descendants.
YHWH does keep His promises.
Let's say for the sake of argument, that modern Jews are Israelites.
If they are rejecting Christ, and suffering the curses for that, shouldn't we see that as YHWH's will?
Would it be wise for us to try and bless someone He is not blessing?
And if they are believers, we are already one with them, and we are all part of the body of Christ, and should bear one another's burdens.
I am not without care for others, but believers need to offer them real help, in Yeshua/Jesus, not just help feeling good about who they are without Him.
Saw this after I posted.
The term Semite means a ....here is that suffix ite again...a descendant of Shem.
This to the best of my understanding includes all the Israelites of the world, many going under the name Christian, all the Ishmaelites too, all the Edomites, (and some articles I have read suggest the Palestinians of today are Edomites) it would also include the Moabites, as they are Lot's descendants.
The term anti semite is a recent invention of the modern Jews, and they have changed the practical use of it so much, that even the dictionary now has the exclusive meaning of being against Jews, and all things Jewish.
When you understand the original meaning, you see that the Zionist Jews are the biggest and most hateful anti (every other family group of ) Semites in the world.
It might help to point out that we go out of our way to directly bless modern Israelis. We regularly host Israeli tourists in our own home, both to learn about a different culture and to work with our children to spread the Gospel to the world without leaving our own home. On a practical individual level, this debate over whether modern Jews are Edomite or Israelite is irrelevant - we are to love all people (even our enemies, for the extreme example), and spread the Gospel to the world. Each individual modern Jew believes they are a descendent of Jacob and comes from that perspective when considering Yeshua, and we must therefore meet them where they are at just as Paul did with the Greeks in Athens. It really makes no difference whether they are correct in believing that they are descended from Jacob or not, and it doesn't matter whether I agree with them or not, - that's where their mind is at, and they must be led from there to Christ.
From that perspective, this discussion about whether modern Israel represents the prophecied return of Israel to the land, or whether we should be looking at everything entirely different, becomes very theoretical. It may greatly affect our understanding of future prophetic events for instance (do we think a prophecy is about the invasion of Israel, the USA, or somewhere else). But it will not in any way alter our treatment of individual Jews, because regardless of the detail of their ancestry they are still people who are loved by God and need to find salvation in Christ. And therefore this discussion cannot result in "anti-semitic" behaviour - because such behaviour would clearly be unChristlike whoever it was directed at. Hence why we can calmly ponder such matters without any need to engage our emotional defence mechanisms.
From that perspective, this discussion about whether modern Israel represents the prophecied return of Israel to the land, or whether we should be looking at everything entirely different, becomes very theoretical. It may greatly affect our understanding of future prophetic events for instance (do we think a prophecy is about the invasion of Israel, the USA, or somewhere else). But it will not in any way alter our treatment of individual Jews, because regardless of the detail of their ancestry they are still people who are loved by God and need to find salvation in Christ. And therefore this discussion cannot result in "anti-semitic" behaviour - because such behaviour would clearly be unChristlike whoever it was directed at. Hence why we can calmly ponder such matters without any need to engage our emotional defence mechanisms.
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