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Did Jesus have an issue with money?
- Thread starter Herbie
- Start date
Define "the church" in your statement please. Because some churches do acknowledge poligny as a legitimate form of marriage...
Sorry spelled it wrong I meant polygyny
You posted your photograph on here. Isn’t that considered a graven image?
C
Cap
Guest
As far as I know the Son of God did handle money, He turned tables over full of it.
James 1:13 KJV
[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV
[13] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
I don’t think it lines up with the word of God to say that you have to sin to survive. When Jesus told Peter to take the coin and pay the temple tax, by your argument He was commanding Peter to sin. You’re telling me that God did something that he specifically says He DOES NOT DO, and that is blasphemy.
[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV
[13] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
I don’t think it lines up with the word of God to say that you have to sin to survive. When Jesus told Peter to take the coin and pay the temple tax, by your argument He was commanding Peter to sin. You’re telling me that God did something that he specifically says He DOES NOT DO, and that is blasphemy.
I’ve had a busy afternoon and evening so I’m just getting back to this. I’m just wanting to point out a couple of things.
Exodus 30:13-15
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs, an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.
Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.
The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
1 Kings 7: 36,37.
For on the platesof the ledges thereof, and on the borders thereof, he graved cherubims, lions, and palm trees, according to the proportion of every one, and additions round about.
After this manner he made the ten bases: all of them had one casting, one measure, and one size.
This passage above is about King Solomon and how he graved images on furniture and fixtures to go into the new temple to be used for service by the Priests. From your argument @Herbie, this would have no other possible result than to make the Temple desecrated, and totally unable to be utilized by a Holy Righteous Perfect Sinless God. And yet in the next chapter, we find an entirely different picture.
1Kings 8:10 &11
And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place,that the cloud filled the house of the LORD,
So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.
So the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord that had all of these graven images inside of it. And the LORD commanded all his men at the age of 20 to bring money to his house to atone for their souls.
This is highly contradictory and unreconcileable from the perspective you present. However, when you look at the passage that you are basing all of this upon, the issue is not that images were graven, but that graven images would be worshipped or served as God
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thy self to them, nor serve them:
Until you can find the scripture that equates money as being intrinsically evil or sinful, rather than the love or worship of money, your interpretation and application will fall flat due to inconsistencies within your perspective. To fulfill all righteousness, Christ by law at the age of 20 would have had to provide a half shekel temple tax to the Temple. Every man was required by Torah to pay this. It could not be paid by another for him. And yet this was not sin! Why? Because Christ, just like every other 20 year old man making atonement for his soul, did not bow down themselves to the half shekel, nor did they serve the half shekel.
I could go on, but this should be enough to convince you to reevaluate?
Exodus 30:13-15
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs, an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.
Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.
The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
- This is the Old Testament origin for the Temple tax spoken of in the New Testament that Peter was paying.
- The LORD gave this instruction to Moses
- Every man owed the tax when he turned 20 years old
- It was a ransom for their soul.
- It was to be paid with a shekel that was produced apparently by the sanctuary.
- This money was to be an offering to the Lord
- It was to make an atonement for their souls.
1 Kings 7: 36,37.
For on the platesof the ledges thereof, and on the borders thereof, he graved cherubims, lions, and palm trees, according to the proportion of every one, and additions round about.
After this manner he made the ten bases: all of them had one casting, one measure, and one size.
This passage above is about King Solomon and how he graved images on furniture and fixtures to go into the new temple to be used for service by the Priests. From your argument @Herbie, this would have no other possible result than to make the Temple desecrated, and totally unable to be utilized by a Holy Righteous Perfect Sinless God. And yet in the next chapter, we find an entirely different picture.
1Kings 8:10 &11
And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place,that the cloud filled the house of the LORD,
So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.
So the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord that had all of these graven images inside of it. And the LORD commanded all his men at the age of 20 to bring money to his house to atone for their souls.
This is highly contradictory and unreconcileable from the perspective you present. However, when you look at the passage that you are basing all of this upon, the issue is not that images were graven, but that graven images would be worshipped or served as God
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thy self to them, nor serve them:
Until you can find the scripture that equates money as being intrinsically evil or sinful, rather than the love or worship of money, your interpretation and application will fall flat due to inconsistencies within your perspective. To fulfill all righteousness, Christ by law at the age of 20 would have had to provide a half shekel temple tax to the Temple. Every man was required by Torah to pay this. It could not be paid by another for him. And yet this was not sin! Why? Because Christ, just like every other 20 year old man making atonement for his soul, did not bow down themselves to the half shekel, nor did they serve the half shekel.
I could go on, but this should be enough to convince you to reevaluate?
you dont have to worship money to serve money. Also your probably not hidu so would you be ok carrying around a Vishnu statue in your pocket that others worshipped.
the church meaning almost all of modern Christianity.
y
you know good and well that a photograph is not engraven or etched by hand thanks though.
not hardly the commandment did not say Peter could not handle it. Christ couldn't and be perfect. It said not to make , serve, or worship a graven image. I have not said it was sin for a person to hold a graven image. Only that it would have defiled Christ to have done so. Nice try on the blasphemy accusation. The Jews also accused Christ of this when they could not prove him wrong.
I have waited patiently for such a reply as I have heard it many times before and disproven it.
1 a shekel while a coin was also a unit of weight meaning a quantitive amount of gold or silver. Not something necessarily with a graven image placed upon it. Like the weight thereof was so many shekels of silver.
2 Solomon is a very bad example here and I have heard it before. Under his rule idolatry entered the kingdom from the customs of some of his wives, aside from that fact. He is one of very few instances where he was given precise permission to do so in the creation. Not negating the fact he is never given permission here to adulterate money with graven images in this book.
you still seem to be under the impression that I am saying it is sin to handle money when in fact as I have stated its graven images and serving them that is the problem. Thank you for your contribution I have nothing bit respect and love for all of you.
God first put this upon my heart as a child and I know it to be true. I believe this because it is true. Perhaps one day man will return to God but History repeats itself over and over. so many questions remain unanswered: why did the people lay the money down at the apostles feet and not just hand it to them? why are so many of Gods prophets lacking money and worldly possessions. why in the parable of the ten talents does christ most resemble the man who buried or did not use the graven image and was killed. Why does the rich land owner seem so much like satan handing out worldly power. I could go on for days. I have not meant to offend or appear rude to anyone as you all mean well and are genuine good people who serve God but the land serves graven images. They are building upon sand and it will wash away. I pray for forgiveness of my sins everyday. Its all I can do.
I feel led to add a scripture from 2 kings 17
33 They feared the Lord, and served their own gods, after the manner of the nations whom they carried away from thence.
34 Unto this day they do after the former manners: they fear not the Lord, neither do they after their statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law and commandment which the Lord commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel;
35 With whom the Lord had made a covenant, and charged them, saying, Ye shall not fear other gods, nor bow yourselves to them, nor serve them, nor sacrifice to them:
36 But the Lord, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.
37 And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.
38 And the covenant that I have made with you ye shall not forget; neither shall ye fear other gods.
39 But the Lord your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.
40 Howbeit they did not hearken, but they did after their former manner.
41 So these nations feared the Lord, and served their graven images, both their children, and their children's children: as did their fathers, so do they unto this day.
I feel led to add a scripture from 2 kings 17
33 They feared the Lord, and served their own gods, after the manner of the nations whom they carried away from thence.
34 Unto this day they do after the former manners: they fear not the Lord, neither do they after their statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law and commandment which the Lord commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel;
35 With whom the Lord had made a covenant, and charged them, saying, Ye shall not fear other gods, nor bow yourselves to them, nor serve them, nor sacrifice to them:
36 But the Lord, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.
37 And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.
38 And the covenant that I have made with you ye shall not forget; neither shall ye fear other gods.
39 But the Lord your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.
40 Howbeit they did not hearken, but they did after their former manner.
41 So these nations feared the Lord, and served their graven images, both their children, and their children's children: as did their fathers, so do they unto this day.
@Herbie, I do see where you're coming from to some degree. The Old Testament temple shekel was a unit of weight, which could be paid in any form of silver - but such measures all ended up being turned into coins eventually for practical reasons. By the time of Christ, the temple had adopted the use of the shekel of Tyre, which had an image of a pagan god on it. This was because the Romans forbade the Jews from printing their own money, and the shekel of Tyre was the closest coin available to the temple shekel (it was actually slightly larger than the historical shekel, so the temple did quite well out of that arrangement). So to pay the temple tax, at the time of Christ, you would have to handle a coin with a pagan image on it.
Roman coins were not used to pay the temple tax. Rather, shekels of Tyre were used. This is why there were money changers in the temple courtyard - people would exchange Roman and other money for silver shekels, in order to use these to pay the temple tax.
So if it was wrong to handle such a coin, then it would be wrong to pay the temple tax.
Where your argument falls over though is that there is no actual statement in scripture that it is wrong to handle such money. Your position is based on speculative logic. And given how common money is, affecting so much of life, you would expect somebody somewhere would have said something clear about this issue.
The temple tax was being paid in pagan coins - did Jesus ever tell anyone "don't pay the temple tax"? The Roman taxes were being paid in pagan coins - did Jesus ever tell anyone "don't use Roman coins, don't pay Roman taxes"? No. Never. Quite the opposite - He told people TO pay the Roman taxes - and they could only do that by handling Roman coins.
If it were sin to handle such coins then Jesus would have been instructing everybody to sin. God would never command sin, so this would mean Jesus was a false prophet.
Roman coins were not used to pay the temple tax. Rather, shekels of Tyre were used. This is why there were money changers in the temple courtyard - people would exchange Roman and other money for silver shekels, in order to use these to pay the temple tax.
So if it was wrong to handle such a coin, then it would be wrong to pay the temple tax.
Where your argument falls over though is that there is no actual statement in scripture that it is wrong to handle such money. Your position is based on speculative logic. And given how common money is, affecting so much of life, you would expect somebody somewhere would have said something clear about this issue.
The temple tax was being paid in pagan coins - did Jesus ever tell anyone "don't pay the temple tax"? The Roman taxes were being paid in pagan coins - did Jesus ever tell anyone "don't use Roman coins, don't pay Roman taxes"? No. Never. Quite the opposite - He told people TO pay the Roman taxes - and they could only do that by handling Roman coins.
If it were sin to handle such coins then Jesus would have been instructing everybody to sin. God would never command sin, so this would mean Jesus was a false prophet.
I would find it unnecessary to cary the statue because I personally have no use for it. But I don't believe carrying it would be a sin. I also do not serve money. I serve the Lord and my neighbors and friends and family as I believe scripture tells me to do.
Definition of Serve Websters 1828
SERVE, verb transitive serv. [Latin servio. This verb is supposed to be from the noun servus, a servant or slave, and this from servo, to keep.]
1. To work for; to bestow the labor of body and mind in the employment of another.
Jacob loved Rachel and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy youngest daughters. Genesis 29:15.
No man can serve two masters. Matthew 6:24.
2. To act as the minister of; to perform official duties to; as, a minister serves his prince.
There is a lot more to this definition I only included the top two.
Again I don't do this with money. I do not serve money.
Money is a tool which I use to trade with others in society for the purpose of purchasing their labor or possessions. Nothing more.
SERVE, verb transitive serv. [Latin servio. This verb is supposed to be from the noun servus, a servant or slave, and this from servo, to keep.]
1. To work for; to bestow the labor of body and mind in the employment of another.
Jacob loved Rachel and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy youngest daughters. Genesis 29:15.
No man can serve two masters. Matthew 6:24.
2. To act as the minister of; to perform official duties to; as, a minister serves his prince.
There is a lot more to this definition I only included the top two.
Again I don't do this with money. I do not serve money.
Money is a tool which I use to trade with others in society for the purpose of purchasing their labor or possessions. Nothing more.
I noticed that you didnt address Christ paying the Temple tax when he was 20