Meat Does Exodus 21:10 apply to non-concubine wives?

[The Revolting Man]

If only that were true.
Most so-called Christians are more concubine than they are wife.

I agree, but that makes the so called Christians wrong, not concubines right.

 

[FollowingHim]

In reality, some of the standards that we accept for a wife today would have defined a relationship as concubine 4,000 years ago in Israel.
That a wife could leave (divorce) a husband.
That she could take the kids with her when she left.

@steve, in both of those cases you are simply extrapolating from a single example in scripture. Exactly the fault you saw in @Luke S's argument. Torah does not provide for either of those things to happen.

I use the definition I use because it is an ancient Jewish definition of the word as provided by @Nikud in this very well referenced post. I don't want to try to invent a definition myself, as that would be biased by my personal opinions on what it should be. I want to check the actual definition as provided by scholars who lived closer to the time and culture than I do, and just use that, to get as close as possible to what the author actually meant when writing in that culture.

I find this obsession with concubines dangerous and frankly bizarre.

I don't think any of the core people in this discussion have an "obsession" with concubines. It is just a word that is used to describe some wives all through scripture. The purpose of this ministry is to understand and then teach about marriage, and this word describes many marriages in scripture. Understanding what the word means is rather important to understanding what the scripture means. If scripture is God-breathed, then every word was chosen for a reason, to convey a meaning to us today. Ignoring a word will only harm our understanding.

"Test the things that differ" (Philippians 1:10) is a crucial method in Biblical study. Why is this word used here and that word used there? The answer advances our understanding.

The discussion of concubines is only "dangerous" if someone is firmly of the opinion that a concubine is a low-end slave-wife and they're trying to twist scripture to abuse women. I agree with you that such an opinion would be highly dangerous. But you're never going to persuade someone thinking that to just stop because "concubines are wrong", any more than you'd persuade a polygamist to not have multiple wives just because "polygamy is wrong". Both are all through scripture. You can only persuade such a person by saying "yes, it's in scripture - but this is what it means". And you'll only know that if you've already studied and discussed it.

I find it frustrating that every serious discussion where people are trying to understand this word has to be filled with posts from yourself saying "don't discuss this, it's wrong", and then people having to debate whether to even discuss the topic at all, while they're also trying to actually discuss the topic. We've had this conversation for years. We all know you disagree with the very idea of discussing concubines. That's fine, point taken. Please don't keep repeating it too much, the rest of us have already decided to step past that point and try and discuss the nuances. The question of whether we should discuss it at all is a separate topic, and would be better addressed in a separate thread.

 

[steve]

@steve, in both of those cases you are simply extrapolating from a single example in scripture.

And there you go making a false accusation based upon your assumption.

I am going to go back to living life rather than arguing about it.

 

[The Revolting Man]

@steve, in both of those cases you are simply extrapolating from a single example in scripture. Exactly the fault you saw in @Luke S's argument. Torah does not provide for either of those things to happen.

I use the definition I use because it is an ancient Jewish definition of the word as provided by @Nikud in this very well referenced post. I don't want to try to invent a definition myself, as that would be biased by my personal opinions on what it should be. I want to check the actual definition as provided by scholars who lived closer to the time and culture than I do, and just use that, to get as close as possible to what the author actually meant when writing in that culture.

I don't think any of the core people in this discussion have an "obsession" with concubines. It is just a word that is used to describe some wives all through scripture. The purpose of this ministry is to understand and then teach about marriage, and this word describes many marriages in scripture. Understanding what the word means is rather important to understanding what the scripture means. If scripture is God-breathed, then every word was chosen for a reason, to convey a meaning to us today. Ignoring a word will only harm our understanding.

"Test the things that differ" (Philippians 1:10) is a crucial method in Biblical study. Why is this word used here and that word used there? The answer advances our understanding.

The discussion of concubines is only "dangerous" if someone is firmly of the opinion that a concubine is a low-end slave-wife and they're trying to twist scripture to abuse women. I agree with you that such an opinion would be highly dangerous. But you're never going to persuade someone thinking that to just stop because "concubines are wrong", any more than you'd persuade a polygamist to not have multiple wives just because "polygamy is wrong". Both are all through scripture. You can only persuade such a person by saying "yes, it's in scripture - but this is what it means". And you'll only know that if you've already studied and discussed it.

I find it frustrating that every serious discussion where people are trying to understand this word has to be filled with posts from yourself saying "don't discuss this, it's wrong", and then people having to debate whether to even discuss the topic at all, while they're also trying to actually discuss the topic. We've had this conversation for years. We all know you disagree with the very idea of discussing concubines. That's fine, point taken. Please don't keep repeating it too much, the rest of us have already decided to step past that point and try and discuss the nuances. The question of whether we should discuss it at all is a separate topic, and would be better addressed in a separate thread.

I have never once said that the topic shouldn’t be discussed. I have consistently said that the idea that there is a separate category for “concubine” is false. The idea that there is a temporary one flesh relationship is also extremely dangerous. I believe it directly leads to adultery. So I won’t be quiet about it. I will challenge the idea of concubines every time it comes up.

If the point of the discussion is to find out what the Bible has to say about concubines then I am the only one actually keeping to that point. Everyone else has to go to external sources.

 

[Keith Martin]

Considering that sending away a wife unrighteously leads very directly to carrying the weight of the sin of adultery, this issue needs to be based solely on scripture.

Adultery brings with it the death penalty. It is a form of idolatry, one of the worst sins imaginable. I find this obsession with concubines dangerous and frankly bizarre. If she’s good enough to be a concubine why wouldn’t you just make her a wife?

That's a great question. However, Scripture does speak of concubines and how they're to be treated if they don't acquire full approval from their men. Why not just make her a wife? I suppose we'd have to get in our time machine and ask every biblical man who dismissed a concubine why they didn't do so, but it's not unscriptural or antiscriptural to contemplate the fact that concubines have always existed and that those who wrote scripture were entirely aware of this fact. It's reflected in Scripture. You and I share the same basic opinion about how women should be treated, but even Scripture itself offers the concubine option -- for both men and, to the extent they had any say in the matter, women or their guardians.

I also highly suspect that not one of us currently arguing about this (Steve, Zec, Samuel or I) are promoting mistreatment of women or encouraging sending women away and thus promoting adultery. We all likely consider that to be dangerous territory.

 

[MemeFan]

In ancient cultures it was very common to purchase people with money, be they wives or servants or whatever. This is because wages were uncommon. Consider two tribes, and a person transferring from one to the other for whatever reason (to change long-term employment, as a wife, or whatever). That person is an economic loss to one tribe (who is losing the benefit of their labour), and a gain to the other. That woman marrying the man in Tribe B will no longer be milking the goats in Tribe A. Tribe A requires some sort of compensation for this loss, or they wouldn't be able to let her leave. That compensation takes the form of a payment of goods or money, from Tribe B to Tribe A. It is called a "dowry" in the case of a formal marriage, or a "price" in any other situation, but some money changes hands. Which is why Abraham's tribe consisted of "all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money" (Genesis 17:23) - those were the only two ways of entering the tribe.

In that cultural context both a wife and a maidservant would be purchased with money, because it was the economic reality of the day. Labour was obtained with an up-front payment to the source tribe plus providing day-to-day living expenses of the labourer.

Bride price was also used as form of saving for future wife. In case if future husband ran away it provided reserve for future wife.

 

[The Revolting Man]

That's a great question. However, Scripture does speak of concubines and how they're to be treated if they don't acquire full approval from their men. Why not just make her a wife? I suppose we'd have to get in our time machine and ask every biblical man who dismissed a concubine why they didn't do so, but it's not unscriptural or antiscriptural to contemplate the fact that concubines have always existed and that those who wrote scripture were entirely aware of this fact. It's reflected in Scripture. You and I share the same basic opinion about how women should be treated, but even Scripture itself offers the concubine option -- for both men and, to the extent they had any say in the matter, women or their guardians.

I also highly suspect that not one of us currently arguing about this (Steve, Zec, Samuel or I) are promoting mistreatment of women or encouraging sending women away and thus promoting adultery. We all likely consider that to be dangerous territory.

Where does scripture speak of concubines and how they’re to be treated?

 

[James Pease]

This is not how to be treated but mentions of the word concubine


H6370 - pîleḡeš

H6370​

H6371 ›› ‹‹ H6369

פִּילֶגֶשׁ

Transliteration: pîleḡeš

Pronunciation: pee-leh'-ghesh

Part of Speech: feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology): Of uncertain derivation

TWOT Reference: 1770

Outline of Biblical Usage: concubine, paramour concubine paramour

KJV Translation Count: 37x The KJV translates Strongs H6370 in the following manner: concubine (35x), concubine (with H802) (1x), paramours (1x).

Strong's Definitions: פִּילֶגֶשׁ pîylegesh, pee-leh'-ghesh; or פִּלֶגֶשׁ pilegesh; of uncertain derivation; a concubine; also (masculine) a paramour:—concubine, paramour.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon​

[Jump to Scripture Index]
STRONGS H6370:
פִּלֶ֫גֶשׁ, פִּילֶ֫גֶשׁ 37 noun feminine concubine (Late Hebrew id.;

J פִּילַּקְתָּא (פַּלְקְתָא), perhaps influenced by Greek παλλακή, παλλακίς (properly young girl), Latin pellex; originally Greek word according to StaG. i. 380, compare also LewyFremdw. 66f; on possibly Hittite origin see JenZMG xiviii (1894), 468 ff.); — פִּ׳ absolute 2 Samuel 3:7, construct 2 Samuel 21:11, פִּי׳ absolute Genesis 36:12; Judges 19:1, construct Genesis 35:22 + 4 times; suffix פִּילַגְשׁוֹ Genesis 22:24 +, שֵׁהוּ- Judges 19:24; שִׁי- Judges 20:4 + 2 times; plural פִּלַגְשִׁים 2 Samuel 5:13 + 2 times, פִּי׳ Genesis 25:6 + 5 times; construct פִּלַגְשֵׁי 2 Samuel 16:21, 22; suffix פִּילַגְשָׁיו 2 Chronicles 11:21, פִּלַגְשֶׁיךָ 2 Samuel 19:6, פִּלַגְשֵׁיהֶם Ezekiel 23:20; —
1. concubine Genesis 22:24; Genesis 25:6; Genesis 35:22; Genesis 36:12; Judges 8:31; Judges 19:1 + 10 times Judges 19:20; 2 Samuel 3:7 (twice in verse) + 7 times 2 Samuel; 1 Kings 11:3; 1 Chronicles 1:32 + 6 times Chronicles; Esther 2:14; Songs 6:8, 9.
2. either = paramour (perhaps contempt.; ὁ πάλλαξ = youth), or < concubinage Ezekiel 23:20 (figurative of Jerusalem doting on Babylon).
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

BLB Scripture Index of Brown-Driver-Briggs​

Genesis
22:24; 22:24; 25:6; 25:6; 35:22; 35:22; 36:12; 36:12
Judges
8:31; 19:1; 19:1; 19:20; 19:24; 20:4
2 Samuel
3:7; 3:7; 5:13; 16:21; 16:22; 19:6; 21:11
1 Kings
11:3
1 Chronicles
1:32
2 Chronicles
11:21
Esther
2:14
Song of Songs
6:8; 6:9
Ezekiel
23:20; 23:20
Tap to view the entire entry

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon​

Tap to view the entire entry

Concordance Results Shown Using the YLT​

Strong's Number H6370 matches the Hebrew פִּילֶגֶשׁ (pîleḡeš),
which occurs 37 times in 35 verses in the WLC Hebrew.

Gen 22:24 and his concubine, whose name is Reumah, she also hath borne Tebah, and Gaham, and Tahash, and Maachah.

Gen 25:6 and to the sons of the concubines whom Abraham hath, Abraham hath given gifts, and sendeth them away from Isaac his son (in his being yet alive) eastward, unto the east country.

Gen 35:22 and it cometh to pass in Israel's dwelling in that land, that Reuben goeth, and lieth with Bilhah his father's concubine; and Israel heareth.

Gen 36:12 and Timnath hath been concubine to Eliphaz son of Esau, and she beareth to Eliphaz, Amalek; these are sons of Adah wife of Esau.

Jdg 8:31 and his concubine, who is in Shechem, hath born to him -- even she -- a son, and he appointeth his name Abimelech.

Jdg 19:1 And it cometh to pass, in those days, when there is no king in Israel, that there is a man a Levite, a sojourner in the sides of the hill-country of Ephraim, and he taketh to him a wife, a concubine, out of Beth-Lehem-Judah;

Jdg 19:2 and commit whoredom against him doth his concubine, and she goeth from him unto the house of her father, unto Beth-Lehem-Judah, and is there days -- four months.

Jdg 19:9 And the man riseth to go, he and his concubine, and his young man, and his father-in-law, father of the young woman, saith to him, 'Lo, I pray thee, the day hath fallen toward evening, lodge all night, I pray thee; lo, the declining of the day! lodge here, and let thine heart be glad -- and ye have risen early to-morrow for your journey, and thou hast gone to thy tent.'

Jdg 19:10 And the man hath not been willing to lodge all night, and he riseth, and goeth, and cometh in till over-against Jebus (It is Jerusalem), and with him are a couple of asses saddled; and his concubine is with him.

Jdg 19:24 lo, my daughter, the virgin, and his concubine, let me bring them out, I pray you, and humble ye them, and do to them that which is good in your eyes, and to this man do not this foolish thing.'

Jdg 19:25 And the men have not been willing to hearken to him, and the man taketh hold on his concubine, and bringeth her out unto them without, and they know her, and roll themselves upon her all the night, till the morning, and send her away in the ascending of the dawn;

Jdg 19:27 And her lord riseth in the morning, and openeth the doors of the house, and goeth out to go on his way, and lo, the woman, his concubine, is fallen at the opening of the house, and her hands are on the threshold,

Jdg 19:29 and cometh in unto his house, and taketh the knife, and layeth hold on his concubine, and cutteth her in pieces to her bones -- into twelve pieces, and sendeth her into all the border of Israel.

Jdg 20:4 And the man, the Levite, husband of the woman who hath been murdered, answereth and saith, 'Into Gibeah (which is to Benjamin) I have come, I and my concubine, to lodge;

Jdg 20:5 and rise against me do the masters of Gibeah -- and they go round the house against me by night -- me they thought to slay, and my concubine they have humbled, and she dieth;

Jdg 20:6 and I lay hold on my concubine, and cut her in pieces, and send her into all the country of the inheritance of Israel; for they have done wickedness and folly in Israel;

2Sa 3:7 and Saul hath a concubine, and her name is Rizpah daughter of Aiah, and Ish-Bosheth saith unto Abner, 'Wherefore hast thou gone in unto the concubine of my father?'

2Sa 5:13 And David taketh again concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after his coming from Hebron, and there are born again to David sons and daughters.

2Sa 15:16 And the king goeth out, and all his household at his feet, and the king leaveth ten women -- concubines -- to keep the house.

2Sa 16:21 And Ahithophel saith unto Absalom, 'Go in unto the concubines of thy father, whom he left to keep the house, and all Israel hath heard that thou hast been abhorred by thy father, and the hands of all who are with thee have been strong.'

2Sa 16:22 And they spread out for Absalom the tent on the roof, and Absalom goeth in unto the concubines of his father before the eyes of all Israel.

2Sa 19:5 And Joab cometh in unto the king to the house, and saith, 'Thou hast put to shame to-day the faces of all thy servants, those delivering thy life to-day, and the life of thy sons, and of thy daughters, and the life of thy wives, and the life of thy concubines,

2Sa 20:3 And David cometh in unto his house at Jerusalem, and the king taketh the ten women-concubines -- whom he had left to keep the house, and putteth them in a house of ward, and sustaineth them, and unto them he hath not gone in, and they are shut up unto the day of their death, in widowhood living.

2Sa 21:11 And it is declared to David that which Rizpah daughter of Aiah, concubine of Saul, hath done,

1Ki 11:3 And he hath women, princesses, seven hundred, and concubines three hundred; and his wives turn aside his heart.

1Ch 1:32 And sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine: she bare Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. And sons of Jokshan: Sheba and Dedan.

1Ch 2:46 And Ephah concubine of Caleb bare Haran, and Moza, and Gazez; and Haran begat Gazez.

1Ch 2:48 The concubine of Caleb, Maachah, bare Sheber and Tirhanah;

1Ch 3:9 All are sons of David, apart from sons of the concubines, and Tamar their sister.

1Ch 7:14 Sons of Manasseh: Ashriel, whom Jaladah his Aramaean concubine bare, with Machir father of Gilead.

2Ch 11:21 And Rehoboam loveth Maachah daughter of Absalom above all his wives and his concubines -- for eighteen wives he hath taken, and sixty concubines -- and he begetteth twenty and eight sons, and sixty daughters.

Est 2:14 in the evening she hath gone in, and in the morning she hath turned back unto the second house of the women, unto the hand of Shaashgaz eunuch of the king, keeper of the concubines; she cometh not in any more unto the king except the king hath delighted in her, and she hath been called by name.

Sng 6:8 Sixty are queens, and eighty concubines, And virgins without number.

Sng 6:9 One is my dove, my perfect one, One she is of her mother, The choice one she is of her that bare her, Daughters saw, and pronounce her happy, Queens and concubines, and they praise her.

Eze 23:20 And she doteth on their paramours, Whose flesh is the flesh of asses, And the issue of horses -- their issue.

 

[The Revolting Man]

This is not how to be treated but mentions of the word concubine


H6370 - pîleḡeš

H6370​

H6371 ›› ‹‹ H6369

פִּילֶגֶשׁ

Transliteration: pîleḡeš

Pronunciation: pee-leh'-ghesh

Part of Speech: feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology): Of uncertain derivation

TWOT Reference: 1770

Outline of Biblical Usage: concubine, paramour concubine paramour

KJV Translation Count: 37x The KJV translates Strongs H6370 in the following manner: concubine (35x), concubine (with H802) (1x), paramours (1x).

Strong's Definitions: פִּילֶגֶשׁ pîylegesh, pee-leh'-ghesh; or פִּלֶגֶשׁ pilegesh; of uncertain derivation; a concubine; also (masculine) a paramour:—concubine, paramour.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon​

[Jump to Scripture Index]
STRONGS H6370:
פִּלֶ֫גֶשׁ, פִּילֶ֫גֶשׁ 37 noun feminine concubine (Late Hebrew id.;

J פִּילַּקְתָּא (פַּלְקְתָא), perhaps influenced by Greek παλλακή, παλλακίς (properly young girl), Latin pellex; originally Greek word according to StaG. i. 380, compare also LewyFremdw. 66f; on possibly Hittite origin see JenZMG xiviii (1894), 468 ff.); — פִּ׳ absolute 2 Samuel 3:7, construct 2 Samuel 21:11, פִּי׳ absolute Genesis 36:12; Judges 19:1, construct Genesis 35:22 + 4 times; suffix פִּילַגְשׁוֹ Genesis 22:24 +, שֵׁהוּ- Judges 19:24; שִׁי- Judges 20:4 + 2 times; plural פִּלַגְשִׁים 2 Samuel 5:13 + 2 times, פִּי׳ Genesis 25:6 + 5 times; construct פִּלַגְשֵׁי 2 Samuel 16:21, 22; suffix פִּילַגְשָׁיו 2 Chronicles 11:21, פִּלַגְשֶׁיךָ 2 Samuel 19:6, פִּלַגְשֵׁיהֶם Ezekiel 23:20; —
1. concubine Genesis 22:24; Genesis 25:6; Genesis 35:22; Genesis 36:12; Judges 8:31; Judges 19:1 + 10 times Judges 19:20; 2 Samuel 3:7 (twice in verse) + 7 times 2 Samuel; 1 Kings 11:3; 1 Chronicles 1:32 + 6 times Chronicles; Esther 2:14; Songs 6:8, 9.
2. either = paramour (perhaps contempt.; ὁ πάλλαξ = youth), or < concubinage Ezekiel 23:20 (figurative of Jerusalem doting on Babylon).
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

BLB Scripture Index of Brown-Driver-Briggs​

Genesis
22:24; 22:24; 25:6; 25:6; 35:22; 35:22; 36:12; 36:12
Judges
8:31; 19:1; 19:1; 19:20; 19:24; 20:4
2 Samuel
3:7; 3:7; 5:13; 16:21; 16:22; 19:6; 21:11
1 Kings
11:3
1 Chronicles
1:32
2 Chronicles
11:21
Esther
2:14
Song of Songs
6:8; 6:9
Ezekiel
23:20; 23:20
Tap to view the entire entry

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon​

Tap to view the entire entry

Concordance Results Shown Using the YLT​

Strong's Number H6370 matches the Hebrew פִּילֶגֶשׁ (pîleḡeš),
which occurs 37 times in 35 verses in the WLC Hebrew.

Gen 22:24 and his concubine, whose name is Reumah, she also hath borne Tebah, and Gaham, and Tahash, and Maachah.

Gen 25:6 and to the sons of the concubines whom Abraham hath, Abraham hath given gifts, and sendeth them away from Isaac his son (in his being yet alive) eastward, unto the east country.

Gen 35:22 and it cometh to pass in Israel's dwelling in that land, that Reuben goeth, and lieth with Bilhah his father's concubine; and Israel heareth.

Gen 36:12 and Timnath hath been concubine to Eliphaz son of Esau, and she beareth to Eliphaz, Amalek; these are sons of Adah wife of Esau.

Jdg 8:31 and his concubine, who is in Shechem, hath born to him -- even she -- a son, and he appointeth his name Abimelech.

Jdg 19:1 And it cometh to pass, in those days, when there is no king in Israel, that there is a man a Levite, a sojourner in the sides of the hill-country of Ephraim, and he taketh to him a wife, a concubine, out of Beth-Lehem-Judah;

Jdg 19:2 and commit whoredom against him doth his concubine, and she goeth from him unto the house of her father, unto Beth-Lehem-Judah, and is there days -- four months.

Jdg 19:9 And the man riseth to go, he and his concubine, and his young man, and his father-in-law, father of the young woman, saith to him, 'Lo, I pray thee, the day hath fallen toward evening, lodge all night, I pray thee; lo, the declining of the day! lodge here, and let thine heart be glad -- and ye have risen early to-morrow for your journey, and thou hast gone to thy tent.'

Jdg 19:10 And the man hath not been willing to lodge all night, and he riseth, and goeth, and cometh in till over-against Jebus (It is Jerusalem), and with him are a couple of asses saddled; and his concubine is with him.

Jdg 19:24 lo, my daughter, the virgin, and his concubine, let me bring them out, I pray you, and humble ye them, and do to them that which is good in your eyes, and to this man do not this foolish thing.'

Jdg 19:25 And the men have not been willing to hearken to him, and the man taketh hold on his concubine, and bringeth her out unto them without, and they know her, and roll themselves upon her all the night, till the morning, and send her away in the ascending of the dawn;

Jdg 19:27 And her lord riseth in the morning, and openeth the doors of the house, and goeth out to go on his way, and lo, the woman, his concubine, is fallen at the opening of the house, and her hands are on the threshold,

Jdg 19:29 and cometh in unto his house, and taketh the knife, and layeth hold on his concubine, and cutteth her in pieces to her bones -- into twelve pieces, and sendeth her into all the border of Israel.

Jdg 20:4 And the man, the Levite, husband of the woman who hath been murdered, answereth and saith, 'Into Gibeah (which is to Benjamin) I have come, I and my concubine, to lodge;

Jdg 20:5 and rise against me do the masters of Gibeah -- and they go round the house against me by night -- me they thought to slay, and my concubine they have humbled, and she dieth;

Jdg 20:6 and I lay hold on my concubine, and cut her in pieces, and send her into all the country of the inheritance of Israel; for they have done wickedness and folly in Israel;

2Sa 3:7 and Saul hath a concubine, and her name is Rizpah daughter of Aiah, and Ish-Bosheth saith unto Abner, 'Wherefore hast thou gone in unto the concubine of my father?'

2Sa 5:13 And David taketh again concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after his coming from Hebron, and there are born again to David sons and daughters.

2Sa 15:16 And the king goeth out, and all his household at his feet, and the king leaveth ten women -- concubines -- to keep the house.

2Sa 16:21 And Ahithophel saith unto Absalom, 'Go in unto the concubines of thy father, whom he left to keep the house, and all Israel hath heard that thou hast been abhorred by thy father, and the hands of all who are with thee have been strong.'

2Sa 16:22 And they spread out for Absalom the tent on the roof, and Absalom goeth in unto the concubines of his father before the eyes of all Israel.

2Sa 19:5 And Joab cometh in unto the king to the house, and saith, 'Thou hast put to shame to-day the faces of all thy servants, those delivering thy life to-day, and the life of thy sons, and of thy daughters, and the life of thy wives, and the life of thy concubines,

2Sa 20:3 And David cometh in unto his house at Jerusalem, and the king taketh the ten women-concubines -- whom he had left to keep the house, and putteth them in a house of ward, and sustaineth them, and unto them he hath not gone in, and they are shut up unto the day of their death, in widowhood living.

2Sa 21:11 And it is declared to David that which Rizpah daughter of Aiah, concubine of Saul, hath done,

1Ki 11:3 And he hath women, princesses, seven hundred, and concubines three hundred; and his wives turn aside his heart.

1Ch 1:32 And sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine: she bare Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. And sons of Jokshan: Sheba and Dedan.

1Ch 2:46 And Ephah concubine of Caleb bare Haran, and Moza, and Gazez; and Haran begat Gazez.

1Ch 2:48 The concubine of Caleb, Maachah, bare Sheber and Tirhanah;

1Ch 3:9 All are sons of David, apart from sons of the concubines, and Tamar their sister.

1Ch 7:14 Sons of Manasseh: Ashriel, whom Jaladah his Aramaean concubine bare, with Machir father of Gilead.

2Ch 11:21 And Rehoboam loveth Maachah daughter of Absalom above all his wives and his concubines -- for eighteen wives he hath taken, and sixty concubines -- and he begetteth twenty and eight sons, and sixty daughters.

Est 2:14 in the evening she hath gone in, and in the morning she hath turned back unto the second house of the women, unto the hand of Shaashgaz eunuch of the king, keeper of the concubines; she cometh not in any more unto the king except the king hath delighted in her, and she hath been called by name.

Sng 6:8 Sixty are queens, and eighty concubines, And virgins without number.

Sng 6:9 One is my dove, my perfect one, One she is of her mother, The choice one she is of her that bare her, Daughters saw, and pronounce her happy, Queens and concubines, and they praise her.

Eze 23:20 And she doteth on their paramours, Whose flesh is the flesh of asses, And the issue of horses -- their issue.

Yes, the word exists. What we’re after is how God commanded us to deal with concubines, if God commanded us to deal with concubines. He didn’t. You can call your women whatever you want, but they all fall into the same categories: women you’re one flesh with, women you’re not one flesh with and women you’re forbidden from being one flesh with.

 

[James Pease]

Yes, the word exists. What we’re after is how God commanded us to deal with concubines, if God commanded us to deal with concubines. He didn’t. You can call your women whatever you want, but they all fall into the same categories: women you’re one flesh with, women you’re not one flesh with and women you’re forbidden from being one flesh with.

I also hold the view that a concubine is indeed a wife . I do think there is a hierarchy in the household though with the "wife" having a higher authority role.

 

[Keith Martin]

Where does scripture speak of concubines and how they’re to be treated?

Shout-out to @James Pease for saving me time on research, but I agree with the sentiment behind the above statement. Concubines, in essence, are just a type of wife, and there is pretty much just one place where how they're to be treated is addressed: Exodus 21:10, the starting point of this discussion.

In the time period we're discussing, though, within all known cultures, being a concubine indicated one form or another of differing status from formal wives. When the Greeks initiated monogamy only, this was formalized. The Singular Wife was elevated to top status, and she was expected to be treated as such both within and without the household. However, that came at a price. Concubines were granted the most freedom of all consorts, including having the freedom to come and go at will from the household without the presence of their husbands; wives were prohibited from leaving the household except in the presence of the husband.

 

[frederick]

Concubines were granted the most freedom of all consorts, including having the freedom to come and go at will from the household without the presence of their husbands; wives were prohibited from leaving the household except in the presence of the husband.

Reminds me of the question; Why did the blonde cross the road?
.... Wrong question!
What was she doing out of the kitchen!

 

[NickF]

Concubines, in essence, are just a type of wife, and there is pretty much just one place where how they're to be treated is addressed: Exodus 21:10, the starting point of this discussion.

This is my understanding. Seems like they were of a lower status but a wife (as we know it) nonetheless.

 

[Luke S]

Let me clarify: I was referring to all wives, mistresses and concubines being there for the man's pleasure. If there were other women there who weren't there for some aspect of a man's pleasure (not necessarily sexual) aside from daughters and mothers and mothers-in-law, they were most likely sisters-in-law or something like that. Men in general simply weren't in a position to just welcome in the world with no expectation that they make some kind of uplifting contribution.

And be careful; you just apologized for conflating things and shifting meaning -- and do it once again in the sentence I quoted above. You assert that you're "not sure" that my assertion that the additional women were there for the pleasure of the man "holds biblical grounds." First of all, I wasn't quoting Scripture; I was talking about the surrounding cultural context, which included many cultures and numerous religions, so it's a red herring whether it's biblical. More importantly, though, you shifted "for the man's pleasure" to asserting that "if all the women in the household were sexual with the man as a given, there would be no need for . . ." Straw man argument, because I never asserted that all of them were sexual relationships. Most, in all likelihood, would have been, but you can't prove some hypothesis about some assumed lack of need for certain women to give their slaves to their husband by shooting down an assertion someone else never made.

And what we don't know is that such a need even existed or didn't exist in the examples you provided. We know that they gave their slaves to their husbands, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have just taken them if the women in question hadn't suggested it. My opinion, with no scripture to back it up, is that, up until the offers, the men you've mentioned simply didn't consider all the ramifications to be worth the experience of having congress with the women in question -- but then once their wives were doing the suggestion, it made accepting the full ramifications much more appealing.

Just imagine if your wife were to approach you and heavily suggest that you take on one of her single friends as a concubine (or whatever title you want to give her); she wouldn't be a bondservant, but my point is that being encouraged to expand one's family by one's own wife has an extensive degree of persuasiveness in such a matter.

Thank you for clarifying, and my bad -- simply misunderstood what you were applying to what.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Shout-out to @James Pease for saving me time on research, but I agree with the sentiment behind the above statement. Concubines, in essence, are just a type of wife, and there is pretty much just one place where how they're to be treated is addressed: Exodus 21:10, the starting point of this discussion.

In the time period we're discussing, though, within all known cultures, being a concubine indicated one form or another of differing status from formal wives. When the Greeks initiated monogamy only, this was formalized. The Singular Wife was elevated to top status, and she was expected to be treated as such both within and without the household. However, that came at a price. Concubines were granted the most freedom of all consorts, including having the freedom to come and go at will from the household without the presence of their husbands; wives were prohibited from leaving the household except in the presence of the husband.

There is no mention of concubines in Exodus 21:10. You then leave scripture and head off to Ancient Greece. The question remains then, where does scripture deal with concubines?

 

[Keith Martin]

There is no mention of concubines in Exodus 21:10. You then leave scripture and head off to Ancient Greece. The question remains then, where does scripture deal with concubines?

I'm beginning to wonder if you're not just stirring the pot (trolling?). @James Pease provided the breadth of the presence of mention of concubines in Scripture, which you had challenged. My assertion is that concubines don't have to be specifically mentioned in Exodus 21:10 to fall under its dictates. Concubines are elsewhere established in Scripture as a form of wife -- especially in regard to what you have consistently asserted constitutes marriage. Heck, Exodus 21:10 doesn't even specify wife -- just the taking of another one -- so you're not asserting that Exodus 21:10 wouldn't apply to concubines, are you?

I remain convinced that you and I are on the same page on this, @The Revolting Man!

 

[The Revolting Man]

IMy assertion is that concubines don't have to be specifically mentioned in Exodus 21:10 to fall under its dictates. Concubines are elsewhere established in Scripture as a form of wife @The Revolting Man!

Maybe I’m confused. I don’t know anywhere in scripture that concubines are established at all. There’s women you’re one flesh with and women you’re not. Maybe I’m straining at gnats at this point. I feel like I keep bashing my head up against this same rock over and over.

No one ever has any answers but six months later everyone believes in concubines again.

 

[MeganC]

There’s women you’re one flesh with and women you’re not.

Agreed. But within the group of women you are one flesh with one can be your legal wife and the others would be something else. Cohabitants, mistresses, squeezes, or even concubines.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Agreed. But within the group of women you are one flesh with one can be your legal wife and the others would be something else. Cohabitants, mistresses, squeezes, or even concubines.

In the legal system of the temporal world we currently live in yes; in God’s economy no. I would possibly compare it to the parable of the laborers hired at different times. Might not be a great analogy.

 

[MeganC]

I would possibly compare it to the parable of the laborers hired at different times. Might not be a great analogy.

Oh, it's a great analogy! You should see the laundry I do every day!