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Genesis 2:24

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Gesenius's Lexicon, "zanah" means: "To commit fornication"

Davies' Hebrew Lexicon, "zanah" means: "fornication"

Complete Word Study Old Testament, "zanah" means: "To fornicate"

Strong's, "zanah" means: "to commit fornication"

I think it's pretty safe to say that "zanah" means fornication. Saying it specifically refers to prostitution is untrue. Sometimes it clearly does. Most times it doesn't. I suppose a person could ASSUME payment for sex was happening where none is mentioned, but the lexicons don't, the talmud doesn't, the dictionary doesn't, and assuming is bad hermeneutics. The rest of those entries go on to mention prostitution also, but every source lists fornication as a primary meaning.

"Matthew 5:32 - refers to a wife committing "fornication", presumably with a man other than her own husband, so here "fornication" actually refers to adultery. They aren't two different things. Adultery is just one type of fornication."

I agree with that. If it seemed I was saying otherwise at some point, I didn't mean it that way. I think it's clear that "zanah" encompasses adultery, as well as incest, as more specific forms of fornication.

"1 Corinthians 5:1 - A man has his father's wife. As he "has" her, I presume this means he has married her. Probably, his father is dead, as Paul does not say that he is committing adultery. Just he's committing incest. So here fornication refers to incest - most likely occuring IN marriage."

This I do not agree with. Firstly, you're 'presuming' he married her. But Paul doesn't say that. I really don't like 'proof texting' on the basis of an assumption. I always "assumed" they weren't married. If the father is dead, then his former wife would be free according to the law, and could marry whoever she wanted. Also, marrying into the same family of a deceased spouse would NOT be something that Paul says is unknown even to the gentiles. That kind of thing was well known, especially among royalty. What would have been that shocking is a man who is committing adultery with his father's wife, or they are actively sharing. And as you already noted, calling this "fornication" is not innacurate, because adultery IS a type of fornication. So here fornication is referring to incest, and most likely, adultery at the same time.

Regardless, I think making this the one time "fornication" refers to marital sex, based solely on an assumption, is unwise.

"1 Corinthians 6:15-18 - Fornication refers to prostitution. Most likely temple prostitution"

Again, this is purely an assumption. The word used is fornicator. I would agree that Paul MIGHT be talking about an actual prostitute, since prostitution is a type of fornication, but again, building a teaching on the basis of an assumption is unwise. He could have specifically said "temple prostitute" if that's what he meant.

"it is possible to commit fornication within marriage through - Incest"

I would disagree with this also, but first we would have to make sure we're talking about the same thing. While an incestuous union might meet the wordly requirements of a marriage, God does not recognize it as such. He lists these things as sin and wickedness. So if you mean "marriage" according to the world, ok. But if you mean biblical marriage, then no. I am refering to Biblical marriage, unless otherwise stated.

"It is possible to commit fornication within marriage through- Sleeping with a menstruous woman"

No, this is not labeled as "zanah". This is labeled as "unclean".

I agree with your four "acts" that are included in the term fornication. But there is more.

What about Dinah? She wasn't committing adultery. She wasn't committing incest. She wasn't being paid. She simply had sex without a marriage covenant. The word used for her? "Zanah".

What about Deuteronomy 22? In this instance, a woman who is married is found to be "zanah" on her wedding night by the evidence that she is not a virgin. Am I again supposed to assume here that they found money in her pockets?! This is silly. She is not being charged with prostitution. She is being charged with sex before marriage.

There are other examples, of course.

"Zanah" means sex without marriage. The meaning of fornication is clear.
 
I honestly don't have a proper sense of when an atmosphere of civil discussion is being fostered and when it isn't. If there are getting to be too many posts on this thread or for whatever reason just needs to end, I apologize for not realizing it. Like Zec said, sometimes it's just a pass-time.
 
Just a third party observer here.

It still appears to me that the participants are discussing calmly. It may be edging up the scale slightly, but only slightly.

Play on.

I doubt I'm the only one not participating yet watching very closely.
 
I'm sorry I got sidetracked and didn't get back here earlier, but I think I can shed some light on the objections that have been made.

However, to preface this, I've been an inactive member here for years, but I popped back in because I thought that some of the research I've done would be beneficial for y'all, because in all honesty, nothing is as it seems and we've been lied to all our lives about just about everything imaginable. I'm not considered a nice man by any stretch of the imagination, although if any of you know me (and there is a strong probability that some here know me IRL) you would argue that. Since there are no internet secrets from Google, anyone who was curious would quickly discover that I blog as the "Artisanal Toad" and I cover topics that would probably offend many of the gentle folk here. I have one rule that I go by, and that is "What does Scripture actually say and what does it actually mean." I'm actually only a toad in the sense that I'm not a frog: there is zero chance kissing me will cause me to turn into prince charming.

Somebody said something about how one is perceived and the ability to communicate the message. Unfortunately, the intended audience has to be provoked to a bit of outrage before they take the time to discover that what "everybody knows" just ain't so. I'm actually quite entertaining when I do presentations, although it seems quite outrageous in the beginning.

That said, I do recommend that the more gentle folk avoid my blog because I discuss what are known as "red pill" issues from a Christian context according to what God's Word actually says and that is extremely uncomfortable for a lot of people. Some of you might find the header photos amusing, others would be offended (although they are all safe for work). However, any Christian who is willing to embrace God's design for marriage is OK in my book (ceteris paribus) and we can probably agree to disagree on some of the more pungent details. Most all of you should be able to relate to the fact that it can be difficult to handle what the Bible actually says and doesn't say. Some folks just can't deal with it.

In response to the comments:

First keep in mind that the Commandment was given, "Be fruitful and multiply." Commandments are implemented by laws, statutes and ordinances. We know that from a study of the Law, when God gave the 10 commandments and then beginning in Exodus 21 He gave Moses all the laws, statutes and ordinances to implement (interpret) them. The Law of Marriage, at Genesis 2:24 states it is "For this reason" so we know it's to enable the first of God's commands to mankind, to be fruitful and multiply. Next it states the grant of authority is given to the man. That should be easy enough to deal with.

The confusion comes from the three elements of the Law, the "three shall's" and what the church did afterward during the period of around 400 AD when they usurped the authority of the man, denied that sex makes a couple married and claimed a ceremony was required and a couple was not married until the church blessed the union. In doing so they interpreted the "three shalls" to require a ceremony with consent in the cleaving part. For anyone who is interested in the history of how we got to where we are today, I highly recommend Brundage's "Law, Sex And Christian Society In Medieval Europe" and for those who balk at 700 page academic tomes, a more digestible work is Kevin MacDonald's monograph on socially imposed monogamy in Western Europe (pdf). That said, let's look at the three elements of the Law of Marriage (Genesis 2:24).

-A man shall leave his father and mother. He is setting up his own house, he will no longer be under the authority of his father and mother. The “leaving” is a shift of authority that makes the man the head of his own house at the moment he takes a wife so this is a change in status, not necessarily a physical act. It is possible to marry and still live in one's father's house (although it isn't comfortable) but it is not possible to marry without becoming the head of the wife, the head of a new family. Thus, the first thing the Law does is establish the status of the man who is married.

-A man shall cleave to his wife. This is the physical act of consummation. The sex. Note that the woman is referred to as his wife. The marital covenant is initiated with this act (more on that later) and this act is known as "the act of marriage" and the "consummation" of the marriage for a reason. It is the sine qua non of marriage.

-they shall become one flesh. Notice the text changes to indicate this is not an action of the man. Christ explained in Matthew 19 that the “become one flesh” aspect of the Law of Marriage (which He had just quoted) is an act of God, not an act of the man. It is generally accepted that God makes the two “become one flesh” at the moment of the consummation of the marriage, when the woman's hymen is ruptured, she bleeds and the covenant of marriage is initiated.

What we see is that of the three shalls, the only definite physical act is the husband having sex with his wife (shall cleave). She is his wife because they had sex and that's what the text refers to her as. They are married because with the act of intercourse the three elements of the law have been accomplished through the sole act of the man taking the woman's virginity. What this tells us is that ALL WOMEN ARE VIRGINS WHEN THEY MARRY. That little point keeps the linguistic problems at bay, because regardless of what ceremony might take place it's not a marriage if the woman is already married to the man she gave her virginity to.

However, nowhere is the issue of consent raised, which naturally causes some concern because the Law just said that to have sex with the woman was to marry her. It should come as no surprise that the issue of consent is settled in the Law with further instruction at Exodus 22:16-17 and Deuteronomy 22:28-29.

The Exodus passage deals with a seduction- the woman consented but her father was not asked for his consent. They are married, but if the father desires, he can invoke his authority under Numbers 30:3-5 and annul his daughters marriage. He has that authority because she agreed to the act of marriage with the man and he can exercise his authority to annul her agreement (“if the father absolutely refuses to give her”). Some have difficulty dealing with this and try to make the point that they are now married so how can the father then annul the marriage? It's because his daughter made the decision and expressed her agreement to marry somewhere along the line prior to the act that consummated her marriage (if she didn't agree she could have kept her clothes on and her legs crossed- but she chose not to and in doing so she indicated her agreement). That is the agreement with binding obligations (I think all will agree that marriage has binding obligations) that the father is annulling. The act of annulling that agreement is to annul the marriage that resulted from the agreement. In modern legal terms this is known as a "clawback" provision.

Believe it or not, if you consider the implications of what that says... that is the most wonderful news you've ever heard if you have an unintentional marriage. Because there is no time limit on when the father can annul her agreement, it is an agreement he can annul in the day he learns of either the agreement OR the binding obligations. The fact that he is making the decision to annul her agreement because it happened on his watch, even though she is now married, means that a young woman living in her fathers house under his authority, who enters into a marriage in ignorance, can have her father annul that marriage years later after she is no longer living in his house in her youth. Biblical clawback at its finest.

The Deuteronomy passage deals with the consent of the virgin. She was raped, they were discovered (discovery is the evidence she was raped and was not engaging in the act of marriage willingly) and thus she is his wife (“they shall be married”). Her father has no authority to annul her marriage because she made no agreement he could annul. The man pays the father a very high price (fine?) and can never divorce her all the days of his life because he violated her. What the Deuteronomy passage does not consider is the issue of whether the father consented, it's irrelevant because she made no agreement.

This passage also points to situations in which a father can choose to have his daughter married to a man she absolutely does not want to marry. Look at Exodus 21:7 to see the extent of this: "If a man sells his daughter as a female slave she is not to go free as the males do..." Notice the authority of the father to do that is assumed in the text. Why would a man buy a virgin? Keep reading until you get to the part about "conjugal rights" in verse 10 and the question is answered, which also answers the question of why the females were sold for life.

This brings us to the issue of the covenant. I can't put my finger on any particular point for the Davidic Covenant as to when the blood was shed (God called David a man of blood), but any other covenant you might care to mention was initiated with the shedding of blood. My favorite is the covenant with Phineas, but we're discussing the marriage covenant. Women, as designed by God, come with a hymen as standard equipment and it's designed to rupture and bleed when her marriage is consummated. (Was that clinical enough for y'all?) It is with the shedding of that blood that God causes them to become one flesh and initiates the marriage covenant. I don't really want to get into an argument over what a covenant *is* or *is not* but my opinion, based on what I've studied, is that a covenant is an agreement to which God is a party to the agreement. Some covenants are completely one-sided, with God vowing to do something, such as the Noahic Covenant; others, such as the Mosaic Covenant, were more of the nature of a diplomatic treaty. With the marriage covenant, God makes the two one flesh.

Please, I don't want to get into the issues surrounding whether a marriage is only a covenant marriage when and/or if it's initiated with a virgin. Drink too deep from Leviticus 21:13-15 while reflecting on Malachi 2:15 and you'll go nuts because that pulls in a lot of other minor points from various places in Scripture and the whole thing turns into a giant Calvinist-Armenian foodfight over predestination. If a woman is eligible to marry then she can be married. Are you both in Christ? Then you share a marriage within the New Covenant and if that's not good enough then salvation must not be good enough. And those discussions get contentious.

Let's talk about the idea of betrothal instead and give everyone the chance to have a headache. God cursed women at Genesis 3:16 and said "your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you." It's off point to this discussion, but every command anywhere in the NT for wives to submit to their husbands is based in Genesis 3:16. Anytime you hear the "Ephesians 5:21 is the context" argument, keep in mind that it's a lie. Genesis 3:16 is the context. Numbers 16 is the proof of that. However, I take the position that the effect of the curse was what we describe today with the term "hypergamy."

Women are cursed with a desire to be ruled by a man who is fit to rule them. When such a man shows up, things happen. We call guys like that "alpha" and typically call guys who are of the more "ho-hum" variety "betas." To keep it simple, some men are more attractive than others and every woman has her attraction point. Some women never have their attraction point triggered and thus never really respond to any man and are often labeled "frigid." Other women have a low attraction point and many men can trigger it, a situation they tend to respond to so those gals are often labeled "sluts". The point is that when a man triggers a woman's attraction point she will often do amazing things. Women have been known to leave husbands and children behind without a second thought because such a man said "come with me." They've been known to drive hundreds of miles, crawl through a window and hide in a closet for hours until his wife leaves... just to be able to climb in bed with a man they are truly attracted to. That is a very uncomfortable observation to make and women often respond by saying "Not All Women Are Like That" (NAWALT). I'm not going to deconstruct that logical fallacy but God did curse all women. And men who understand that tend to be wary of women.

In Deuteronomy 22:13-21, there is no question the woman committed adultery, the question is who she committed adultery with, which begs the question of who her husband actually was. If she lost her virginity (was married) prior to the engagement, then the engagement and marriage was fraudulent and the man she was engaged to committed adultery in the act of what he thought was the consummation of his marriage. If she lost her virginity after the engagement began, she committed adultery against the man she was engaged to, who was her husband in fact if not deed. However, if a witch-hunt to determine the facts was conducted, there was a good chance an innocent man would have to die for committing adultery. If you want my take on this with all the text analysis, I covered it in "Fornication, Premarital Sex And The Easter Bunny."

The point is, look at her behavior. Logically, a woman who has secured an engagement to a suitable man doesn't want to mess that up (and her parents don't want that either) so she's going to be a good girl and bide her time. But, what if it happened prior to the engagement? That's a major problem. If one looks carefully at Deuteronomy 22, notice that a woman's testimony about rape is irrelevant, the judgments are evidence driven and presume the woman would lie about being raped. That makes women almost as uncomfortable as the fact that by not including widows or divorced women, the crime of rape is being defined as the crime of forced adultery. There's a lot to think about in that chapter for anyone who wants to study it.

Notice that while the Law of Marriage does not require a ceremony of any kind, the Law of Vows (Numbers 30) requires that if a man makes a vow or agreement he is obligated to keep his word. There is nothing to keep a man from negotiating an agreement with the father of a woman he wishes to have as a wife. It is in the best interests of all involved that such an agreement is made because it ensures the woman is not pregnant with another man's child at the end of the betrothal period. While the Law of Marriage says that a man and woman are married with the act of having sex, the Law of Vows says that if the man enters into an agreement he is to keep it. This is where "premarital sex" comes from. Premarital sex is when a betrothed couple jump the gun and the man violates his word to wait until the date and time set certain at the end of their betrothal period. While he had the right to initiate the marriage when he chose, he voluntarily gave up that right under the terms of the agreement.

I think this is where a lot of confusion comes from. It's well understood that rights can be waived in equitable contract, so an individual can voluntarily sign a non-disclosure-agreement (NDA) and give up their right of free speech in a specific area in return for some consideration. If someone accepts a job offer that's contingent on signing an NDA because they will learn trade secrets; and they later reveal those secrets, a court will not view their claims of an exercise of the right to free speech with favor. It is the same with marriage and an engagement (betrothal) contract.

The betrothal period and celebration at the end of said period is completely voluntary but once the agreement is made, it is mandatory. To claim that a period of time is required (publishing banns) and a public ceremony is required is a gross abuse of the man's authority to initiate marriage under the Law of Marriage. This is what the early church did, but that's a rabbit trail. What we are faced with today is the idea that the betrothal period and ceremony is not voluntary but rather mandatory to the point that if the ceremony does not occur the individuals are not married. And "premarital sex" is just a sin that can be forgiven, it has no lasting effects.

As to the issue of what that chart looks like, I should have thought that through and made a different version for you guys. The nekkid women were placed there to get a specific reaction (which I got) and it stimulated a great conversation about lust. As those of you here already know, a man is authorized to have more than one wife. Therefore, a man having sex with a woman he is eligible to marry cannot ever be an act of adultery because if she's married she's not eligible to marry. Adultery, quite literally, requires a married woman. Thus, when we look at Matthew 5 where Jesus said that to look on a woman with lust meant the man had already committed adultery in his heart... we can see that meant the woman concerned must be a married woman. Therefore, lust is a desire that cannot legitimately be obtained. No man can look on his wife with lust or look on a woman he is eligible to marry with lust because that woman can be obtained and he can legitimately satisfy that desire. As to some of the language, trying to explain what is generally known as the AF/BB model of hypergamy is pretty much impossible without using a certain word...

As to the issue of a man (married or not) being authorized to have sex with any woman eligible to marry... because he is authorized to initiate marriage and marriage is initiated with the act of marriage (sex)... this brings us to the issue that some women have agency and some women do not.

Exodus 22:16-17 and Deuteronomy 22:28-29 make it clear that a virgin does not have agency. She is married to the man who takes her virginity. Under some circumstances her father has the authority to annul that, but in others he does not. However, 1st Cor. 7:39 makes it clear that a woman who is not a virgin and not married does have agency. She must consent in order for her to be married. Keep in mind that the man gives his consent to marry with the act of penetrating a woman. Every. Single. Time. The authority to initiate marriage carries with it a large responsibility and part of that is the man is the moving agent in the process, so for him to choose to penetrate the woman is for him to consent to marry her. However, if the woman is not a virgin and she does not consent to the marriage (maybe she looks at it as a "test drive") then they are not married with the act of having sex. Neither have they sinned because Romans 4:15 and 5:13 makes it clear that where there is no Law there is no violation and without a violation there is no sin imputed. This is why Samson was still clean and had not violated his Nazerite vow when he visited (used) a prostitute in Judges 16:1-3.

We must also keep in mind that the Law cannot be changed. Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 both forbid anyone to either add to the Law or subtract from it. What we see in 1st Corinthians 6:15-16 is the Apostle Paul giving an ordinance for the church that only applies to Christians. Obviously, only a Christian could possibly join the members of Christ to a whore, so this is one of the "house rules" for the servants of Christ as members of His house. We accept, as Christians, that the instruction from the Apostles was given under the inspiration of Christ and reflects His desires. With that in mind we can say that Christ chose not to allow Paul to restrict His servants from having sex with a widow or a legitimately divorced woman (non-virgins) even though such an act might not result in marriage. What Christ caused Paul to do instead, was to forbid Christian men from using prostitutes. I balk at trying to explain why God chooses to do anything, but perhaps it's because the use of a prostitute that the man had no intention of marrying was an abuse of his authority as a man. And if one examines the text carefully, it does not exclude marriage to a prostitute because in the act of becoming his wife she can no longer be a prostitute for she is now his wife.

I'll now go back over the comments and try to find what I missed.
 
I think you missed a lot.

The notion that sex=marriage is put to bed, I think. But you just wrote a book saying the same things that have already been rejected. Maybe a simple link to your blog would have been more appropriate.

Since that was mostly a self-promoting keyboard burnout that ignored things being discussed by pouring a barrel of been-there-read-that all over it, I'll just say this:

When the thing you "just figured out that no one else ever realized before ever" begins and ends with preconceptions, you might want to ask if there's a reason the orthodox position is the orthodox position. Besides priestly conspiracy I mean.

If there is an isolated point of discussion that was covered you have a counter point to, that would be cool. Otherwise . . . . .
 
Wow, Eristophanes. I mean wow. That was pretty comprehensive. I don't agree with some minor points here and there but overall that was a pretty hard case to argue against. I look forward to reading your blog.

Okay Jason, I think the main place where you run into to trouble is that you still want to read a modern understanding of fornication into both porneia and zanah. Even after you acknowledge that both words encompass the concept of forbidden sexual acts you come back around and say that it means extra-marital sex. If the words are broad enough in their scopes to encompass all of the forbidden acts then they can't be so narrowly focused to obviously mean only one act, and one that doesn't get mentioned anywhere else. Because as I look at the verses you've listed none of them so far have suggested to me that anything other than prohibited acts occurred.

The story of Dinah and Shechem is an interesting one but it can't be used to illustrate God's views on marriage as Shechem's father was an unbelieving pagan and nothing he did reflected God's will. Now it appears that the story might reflect a realization that the father (Jacob) had a right to annul a marriage, however this occurred before the Law was given and so is just a recounting of an event we can draw lessons from, but does not represent a command or even a principle.

God's Laws are clear and laid out. Everywhere I see a man laying with a woman, either a previously defined sin has occurred or a one flesh union has occurred. The union can be broken in limited circumstances the toad man seems to be right, if you penetrate a woman you've agreed to marry her.
 
As long as you're ok with all those verses not making logical sense, and ok with assuming your preconceived idea is true regardless of the fact that it doesn't make sense, and ok with the logical conclusions of these assumptions (like having sex with an unmarried nonvirgin is ok, and a child sexually abused by her family is now required by God to continue to give her body to her abuser, and that God commits adultery with us when he steals us away from our true spiritual husband, and a father can command a divorce for his daughter years after the fact regardless of Jesus saying the opposite,and other such pitfalls of reading into a verse what you wish it said).

I guess we can replay this if that's where we're at.

If I am the second man to sleep with a prostitute, am I one flesh with her?
 
Jason, re: "fornication"

Fornication is an English word that is most often used to translate the Greek word "porneia." It comes from the ancient "fortrix" which described the arches the prostitutes would congregate under and the arch later became the symbol of brothels. In accordance with church teaching for the past 1500 years, the word is recognized to be defined as persons who are not married to each other having sex.

Given the usage of the Greek word "porneia" we know that it describes acts that are sinful.

Romans 4:15 and 5:13 state clearly that where there is no law (no prohibition) there is no violation and without a violation there is no sin imputed. That makes sense, there has to be a prohibition in order to violate it and no violation means no sin.

Thus, whatever acts the Greek word "porneia" describes, because they are sinful acts, they must include only such acts that violate a prohibition found in the Law. There is one addition to that, the prohibition against joining the members of Christ to a prostitute that occurs at 1st Cor. 6:15-16.

The assertion that a man having sex outside marriage is either adultery or fornication does not follow. Adultery requires a married woman. Fornication requires a violation of the law or the violation of 1st Cor. 6:15-16, and search as anyone might, there is no prohibition to be found that prohibits a man (regardless of his marital status) having sex with a woman he is eligible to marry. Because a woman who is not a virgin has agency and must consent in order for there to be a marriage, this situation can result in a man and woman having sex, not being married and not being in sin.

The problem with the English word fornication is that in its modern usage it denotes the act of two individuals who are not married having sex, an act that is not a sin if they are eligible to marry. In fact, if one eliminates the "named" sins of adultery, incest, sodomy and bestiality, the only act that fornication can describe that is a sin is the act of joining one's self to a prostitute. Which is what the word originally described.

But, what about intent?

It is reasonable to argue that a man having sex with a woman he is eligible to marry under conditions in which he has no intention of marrying her is not only an abuse of his authority as a man, but an example of what the Apostle Paul was forbidding with the prohibition on joining the members of Christ to a whore. However, I think everyone can imagine scenarios today in which women who are not virgins simply refuse to consent to a marriage until they know what they're going to get and that means "I will not say yes until we've had sex and it had better be good or I won't agree to marry you."

What about issues of conscience?

Romans 14:23 says "that which is not of faith is sin" and James 4:17 tells us that not doing what we know is the right thing to do is sin. These are areas of conscience and as such Romans 14 is clear that we are not to judge the brother in such areas, so this really all comes down to the conscience of the individual with respect to their intent and you could phrase the question like this:

Are you going to the used car lot and test driving a car because you are interested in buying it, or do you occasionally take a car for a test drive in order to run some errands because it's easy to get a test drive and it's much more convenient than actually buying a car and caring for it? Thus, one guy might be legitimately test driving the car under his authority as a potential buyer, the other guy is abusing his authority as a potential buyer in order to receive a benefit he has no intention of legitimately obtaining. In both cases the act is the same, one guy is righteous and the other guy is in sin.
 
Yeah, I already know this leads to a justification of extramarital sex. No need to repeat it.

And let me clear this up. I'm not using the "wrong" definition of fornication by using the modern definition. Fornication is a MODERN ENGLISH word. It has a meaning. It is not Hebrew. Zanah is Hebrew. EVERY lexicon and source we use today has decided that the MODERN ENGLISH word "fornication", with it's modern English meaning, is the very best word we have to translate "zanah". When you say "that's not what it means" you are going against the known usage of the word and substituting your own.

Saying there is no law against fornication only works when you ignore the laws against fornication.

Saying fornication doesn't mean fornication only works when you refuse to believe fornication means fornication.

So, back to my question, "one flesh" means adultery, not marriage?
 
Jason asked:

If I am the second man to sleep with a prostitute, am I one flesh with her?

ZecAustin responded and said:

Yes. You have committed adultery with her.

Jason then asks if "one flesh" means adultery, not marriage?

I have to question the assumptions here. A woman starts off as a virgin and she is married when she loses her virginity. There are multiple ways in which she could no longer be married, the most common would be that she is a widow. Or a legitimately divorced woman. Or her father annulled her marriage. The point is, in order to discuss the single issue of becoming one flesh with the prostitute, we need to assume she is neither a virgin or married. Why?

If she's not married there can be no adultery.

If she's not a virgin, sex with her does not automatically result in marriage because she must consent to the marriage in order for it to happen.

Neither of these issues speak to whether a man becomes "one flesh" in the marital sense with a prostitute by having sex with her because one assumes a prostitute is in the business of selling sexual gratification and her body is the tool used. The question is whether we are to understand from the Apostle Paul that a man becomes "one flesh" with a prostitute in the act of having sex with her.

I assert that IF Paul were really saying that joining yourself to a prostitute meant you were becoming "one flesh" with her in the marital sense, he would have used the same words that are used when describing that act of becoming one flesh in the marital sense. He didn't.

In Matthew 19:6 the Greek words "mia" and "sarx" are used and translated as "one flesh."

In 1st Corinthians 6:16 Paul does something different and it's obvious in the text because both sets of words typically translated as "one flesh" are used in the same verse.

He says "Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."

"is one body with her" uses the Greek words "hen" and "sōma" and they are translated as "one body" in the NASB (the version doesn't matter because we're drilling down to the Greek here)

Yet, just a few words later Paul quotes either/both Genesis 2:24 and Christ at Matthew 19:6

"the two shall become one flesh" and the Greek words for "one flesh" used are "mian" and "sarka" which are slightly different tenses of the same words used in Matthew 19:6

Comparing Matthew 19:6 with 1st Corinthians 6:16 we see three instances in which the text is translated as "one flesh" but when describing the actual joining to a prostitute, the words used are not the same as they are when used to describe the becoming one flesh that occurs in marriage.

This indicates that the meaning is not the same (otherwise he would have either phrased it differently or used the same words), and becoming "one body" (NASB) with a prostitute is not the same as becoming one flesh in marriage. Note that the argument does not devolve to definitions, I point to the distinction Paul is making by differentiating between becoming one body through sex with a prostitute and becoming one flesh in the marital sense.

Because Paul is pointing to the act of marriage and it's result in marriage, I speculate that Paul phrased it as he did to point to the fact that men were using their authority to become one flesh for the lesser, sordid purpose of becoming one body with a prostitute. This was an abuse and Paul forbade to Christians.

Years ago, when asked how a man could become one flesh with more than one wife, I would flippantly respond that if a married man who is one flesh with his wife can become one flesh with a prostitute, he can certainly become one flesh with two wives. I would not make that argument today because after having studied it, I don't believe Paul was teaching that sex with a prostitute resulted in a "one flesh" union that characterizes marriage. That is not to say a man cannot become one flesh successively with more than one wife, just that based on the text, it does not appear to be happening with a prostitute when she is used in the manner of using a prostitute.

If anyone is arguing that Paul is suggesting that a man who uses a prostitute is becoming one flesh with her in the marital sense, I'd like to hear it.
 
Obviously you didn't read the other comments. That was one of the "proof texts".

So Zec, I don't agree with that explanation either, but at least he and I agree it doesn't mean marriage to a prostitute. Agree?
 
LOL. Food Bowl.
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Oh God. Oh God.
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I see what you did there.
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Oh, I loved it. Thank you.
 
I don't agree that a woman has agency to accept sex but deny marriage. I would say that, like the man, if she accepts sex, she accepts marriage. There is at least some textual evidence that when she leaves her husband's authority she has to return to her father's anyway.

I get why the idea of a marriage resulting from sex with a prostitute is so disconcerting. But I think it demonstrates how important sex is to God. He said it Himself. You will become one flesh with her. Its a little sophomoric to suggest that only means sex. Paul would have been saying "Don't have sex with a prostitute. Don't you know you'll be having sex with her if you do?" He said don't have sex with a prostitute because you will be knit together the same a husband and wife are. That's powerful stuff.

On fornication, I don't agree that the modern definition is best. Those same people who translated fornication as extra-marital sex translate marriage as one man one woman. We have to look at the text that was delivered to us. I have to admit I am not qualified to argue with Eristophanes, although I disagree with the idea of women have agency to consent to sex and not marriage and the open ended authority of a father to annull a marriage. Still, he has an impressive body of work and an obvious scholarship that is a bit over awing.
 
Not if you read it. Everything's based on a very simple and unnecessary assumption, and leads to terrible conclusions, as I think you're starting to see. I guess you found it funny, Net, but i found it rather ironic that with all his scriptureless metaphors of men as dogs eating out of the neighbors' food bowls because that's what dogs do and a woman who owns a dog should just give him more food and treats if she doesn't want him eating out of other bowls; this word translated "fornication", which he is trying to justify, literally means "overly fed". What a coincidence.

But then, Zec, if you still say Paul means marriage when he says one flesh we need to stay there.

You said the second man has committed adultery with the woman. So one flesh means adultery?
 
Jason

I do apologize. After reading back through the comments carefully, seeing ZecAustin repeatedly try to rationally explain what Scripture says to you, citing the text- only to see you reject what Scripture says in favor of your feelings, I see that there is no point in me attempting to do what he could not.

ZecAustin

I don't agree that a woman has agency to accept sex but deny marriage. I would say that, like the man, if she accepts sex, she accepts marriage.

Unfortunately, that's a category error that presumes men and women have an equal standard of sexual morality. Because, if you look at what Scripture says, men and women are held to different standards of sexual morality... which is why a man can have more than one wife but a wife can only have one husband. And there are better examples. God chose to forbid male homosexuality as a death-penalty offense, but at the same time God deliberate chose not to forbid sexual contact between women. And reading Leviticus 18:22-23, it cannot be described any other way except that God deliberately chose not to prohibit sexual contact between women. I know that's like nails on a chalkboard for Christians, but God is God and He gets the choice in how He wants to arrange things. And, as God said: "My ways are not your ways, O man."

We *know* the issue of consent WRT a virgin was covered in Exodus 22:16-17 and Deuteronomy 22:28-29, so *why* don't we see the issue of consent covered WRT a woman who is eligible to marry but not a virgin? All speculation aside, the only legitimate answer is that God chose not to. Why does Deuteronomy 22 only cover the issue of rape WRT the wife (married in deed), the betrothed virgin (married in fact) and the virgin not betrothed? Why did God choose not to mention rape with respect to widows and divorced women? Perhaps the better question than "why" is "what is God trying to teach us?"

Why did God choose not to forbid ordinary goods-for-services prostitution? The Law specifically forbids cult prostitution, which was part of the practice of idolatry (a death penalty offense) so we know God certainly had the opportunity to forbid ordinary prostitution and He chose not to. Otherwise He would not have limited His prohibition specifically to cult prostitutes.

If you asked me to speculate on the issue of prostitution, I'd tell you that I'm convinced it was God's act of mercy for the women because I have been places (war zone) where women were doing whatever they had to do to survive and feed their children and if that meant working on their backs, they did it. They didn't want to but they didn't want their kids to starve either. And I'll tell you something else about that. I knew guys who who went with those women and after they got to her place, after looking around and understanding the situation... they couldn't do it. But they paid her anyway. And later a case of MRE's would fall down the stairs into her basement (where they hid during the day because of the snipers). And it would keep happening. A couple of guys had their own little humanitarian program going.

Paul forbade Christian *men* to become one body with a prostitute, but he did not command Christian women not to be a prostitute. The thing is, he could have because he was not adding to the law, he was giving instruction on the "house rules" for the servants of Christ who are members of His house because He redeemed them. Paul could have forbidden Christian women from prostituting themselves. He didn't. Which means Christ didn't.

Thinking about that is extremely uncomfortable for most Christians, but it should be considered when contemplating the issue of sex and marital consent WRT a woman who is not a virgin, because the fact is- men and women are held to different standards of sexual morality.
 
See what I mean Zec?

Look, I do commend you for your purpose. You have said that sex=marriage is an important issue to you because you don't want us to promote a position that looks at sex in any situation too lightly. My favorite line of yours was "you're either making one (a marriage) or breaking one". Although I don't agree with that in the details, I completely agree with the sentiment.

The problem is that the "detail" of making sex=marriage carries with it some very unbiblical logical conclusions.

For this I commend Eristophanes. He is simply taking the idea to its logical outcome. Sticking with the rationality of the belief and letting the answers come. Marriage in the Bible is so interwoven spiritually and conceptually in human relationships that changing one thing can have unintended results. These are the results. This is what comes of it.

So, E, we can start with your ideas if you don't still feel above being questioned. Firstly, since we are in agreement that 1 Corinthians 6 cannot be a proof text for sex=marriage, are we then in agreement that sex does not create a marriage in cases that are specifically mentioned in the law (such as adultery, incest, bestiality, male homosexuality)? I'm assuming we at least agree on that?
 
Jason said:
So, E, we can start with your ideas if you don't still feel above being questioned. First are we, or are we not, in agreement that sex does not create a marriage in cases that are specifically mentioned in the law (such as adultery, incest, bestiality, male homosexuality)? I'm assuming we at least agree on that?

Jason, these are not "my ideas" as you erroneously assert. I cite where everything comes from in Scripture and I'm not slipping any sawdust into the sausages. They are not even "ideas" but rather God's Word to us. They are His instruction to us, for our benefit.

Second, it is not for us to agree or disagree where God has spoken, it is our duty and our obligation as Christians to obey. Where God has forbidden a relationship, such as the relationships you have mentioned (adultery, incest, bestiality, male homosexuality) it is ludicrous to believe that God would make them "one flesh" in accordance with Genesis 2:24. That is what I see in Scripture and I would like to think that is what others would see as well, but I know some sodomites who claim to be Christians and violently disagree with that conclusion.

As to whether I feel "above being questioned" that's a bit over the top considering what you've said of and to me up til now. If you want a dialogue that's something I enjoy. I don't claim to know it all and I continue to gain new insights in my discussions with various people. However, the only way we can have a dialogue is if we have common ground on which to have said dialogue. Pitching out the idea that we should agree on blah blah blah only works if we have a common standard to work from.

My standard is "What does the Bible actually say and What does the text actually mean." We can agree or disagree, but we would have to do so based on the text. We start with the context, who was speaking, to whom they were speaking; look at any associated passages and how any particular interpretation impacts them (no antinomies allowed); we examine the original language, we look at word usage and other elements of textual analysis and examine any interpretation based on fundamental principles.

An example of that is the claim the context for Ephesians 5:22-24 is Ephesians 5:21. That is incorrect because to make that claim violates the command of God at Genesis 3:16. It attempts to usurp God's ordained structure of authority and we can see from Numbers 16 how God dealt with that.

Jason, I perceive a tremendous urge in you to "spiritualize" basic instruction to the end of negating the instruction, changing things to suit your worldview, so I'm going to illustrate what I mean.

There is a young man who was outraged a few years ago at my assertion that Christians married to Christians are forbidden to divorce for any reason (1st Cor. 7:10-11). When I pointed out that the issue of divorce and polygyny were two sides of the same coin (both issues come out of what Genesis 2:24 did not say) he blew a gasket.

He called me a liar and quoted Matthew 19:4-5 as the PROOF that from "the very words of Jesus," a marriage consists of one man and one woman and that's it. Polygyny is a sin. I asked him if he was sure and he said he was quite sure. I asked him if Jesus was consciously teaching as doctrine that one man and one woman constitutes the institution of marriage and no man can have more than one wife at the same time. Again, he assured me that Christ never makes a mistake and since that's exactly what He said, that's what He meant and when he asked, the Holy Spirit confirmed that for him.

I congratulated him on doing such a fine bit of research and suggested that we celebrate his extraordinary discovery with a party at a high-class whorehouse.

He responded to my comment with even more outrage, displaying a rather exceptional vocabulary for one so young. I asked him if he had a problem with whores, after all, Jesus hung out with bartenders and whores. He threw 1st Corinthians 6:15-16 at me and I told him to relax it was OK, that no longer applied. He had removed that prohibition with the "very words of Jesus."

He asked how he could have possibly removed that prohibition by quoting Jesus and I explained that Deuteronomy 4:2 (and 12:32) forbids adding to or subtracting from the Law, so if Jesus was really teaching a doctrine of one man and one woman as the definition of marriage, then Jesus was in violation of the Law. He violated the prohibition of adding to the law by forbidding polygyny and He had subtracted all the enabling regulations for polygyny from the Law. Thus, Jesus sinned and could not possibly be the Messiah, Christianity was all a Lie and we may as well go get drunk at a whorehouse and commiserate with some friendly whores because that wasn't forbidden in the Law and obviously with no Messiah we were back under the Law.

It took him a bit of time to recover from that but he continues to use that argument. Knowing he is wrong. Because his foundation and his standard is his feelings and as far as he is concerned divorce is a moral action for Christian men to take with an unfaithful wife and having more than one wife is a sin.

Hopefully that illustrates the point that just because a person can find a passage that uses the words they want to see, it doesn't necessarily mean those words mean what that person wants them to mean. The concept is called "eisegesis" which means reading into the text what we want to see; as opposed to the concept of "exegesis" which is taking from the text what it says. And if that's insultingly basic for you, I'm sorry. That's just the teacher in me.

So, Jason, what is your standard?
 
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