Growing through the scriptures

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

you can learn from the experience and hard work of others.

Doc, I recall a wise professor once saying: "it is sinful to ignore the great labors of the teachers the Lord has given to the church because if you have to spend 3 years researching a meaning of a biblical phrase when right before your eyes is the faithful labors of a trustworthy scholar who have already done it and left it in writing for you to use then you have sinned by not being a good steward of your time. Use the resources God's grace has given to you."

He, of course, urged us all to always meditate, pray, study, and carefully read Scripture for ourselves. We were to never simply study books about the bible but we were to dig deep into the bible itself. Yet we were also taught how foolish we were if we rejected the more mature leaders who had gone before us doing the same thing we were learning to do.

His point was well understood. It is often pride, and sometimes ignorance, that would make us discard the value of the great labors of others who have gone before.

We are so blessed to live in the era we live within. We can pick up today the work of a Calvin, or Luther, or Augustine, or Billy Graham, or many others who have left for us their life's labors and learn in an hour what it took them 25, 50, or more years to learn because they took all of their research, life experiences, and recorded it for us on the written pages. The value of such wisdom is priceless and yet sometimes we are so used to this convenience that we fail to appreciate such blessings of grace given to us by our loving Lord.

Sometimes I look back in my life and realize how I did not glean all I could have from a certain professor or teacher. My own laziness at times and at times my own refusal to yield to an older and wiser leader in my life who could have taught me so much more had I just been willing to do more listening instead of talking. It was a James 1:19 error in my life.

I've often also heard it said that the only ones who do not truly value education are those who are uneducated. I've pondered that statement for years and one fella explained it to me in a way that helped me understand that a bit better. This ole military man said to me one day: "Education lets you see how much you really do not know and how to go about finding the answers to what you do not know. But if you do not have education you will often never even know that you do not know what you need to know."

Billy Graham once said to us young seminarians that if he knew he had only a few years left to preach the gospel before death that he would choose to spend about half of that time in an educational context before going to preach.

Of course, when I use the term education I am not always referring to just the academic circles. A person can be well read, and thoroughly trained through informal discipleship just like one who is in an academic formal context of school/seminary. But in either case growth in knowledge and learning the skills of how to apply that knowledge in service is essential for a God honoring life.

I've also seen this to be true. Those who will not humble themselves to be disciples know very little about how to go about making disciples and thus they fail miserably at the Great Commission. It like those who want to be a boss before they ever learn first how to be a faithful servant under a boss' authority. Those who cannot submit to authority rarely, if ever, make a good authoritative leader.

 

[Doc]

And that's really what it's all about, isn't it? Making disciples....no matter if it is in a formal educational context or through regimented self-study, it all needs to point to preparing us to MAKE DISCIPLES!

The making of disciples is our Lord’s means for answering the prayer, “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:9-10). In His infinite wisdom, Jesus chose to use dedicated followers, His disciples, to carry the message of salvation to all peoples of the world. He included this as a command in His last words before His ascension to heaven: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age” (Matthew 28:18-20).

Making disciples is important because it is the Lord’s chosen method of spreading the Good News of salvation through Jesus Christ. During His public ministry, Jesus spent more than three years making disciples—teaching and training His chosen twelve. He gave them many convincing proofs that He was the Son of God, the promised Messiah; they believed on Him, though imperfectly. He spoke to the crowds, but often He drew the disciples aside privately to teach them the meaning of His parables and miracles. He sent them out on ministry assignments. He also taught them that soon He would be returning to His Father following His death and resurrection (Matthew 16:21; John 12:23-36, 14:2-4). Though they could not comprehend it, He made the disciples this astonishing promise: “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in Me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father” (John 14:12). Jesus also promised to send His Spirit to be with them forever (John 14:16-17).

As promised, on the Day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came with power on the believers, who then were emboldened to speak the Good News to everyone. The remainder of the Book of Acts gives the exciting account of all that was accomplished through them. In one city the opposition said, “These who have turned the world upside down are come hither also” (Acts 17:6 KJV). Multitudes placed their faith in Jesus Christ, and they also became disciples. When strong persecution came from the false religious leaders, they dispersed to other areas and continued to obey Christ’s command. Churches were established throughout the Roman Empire, and eventually in other nations.

Later, because of disciples such as Martin Luther and others, Europe was opened to the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the Reformation. Eventually, Christians emigrated to the New World to make Christ known. Though the world still is not completely evangelized, the challenge is as viable now as ever before. The command of our Lord remains – “Go and make disciples, baptizing them, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” The characteristics of a disciple may be simply stated as

• one who is assured of his salvation (John 3:16) and is activated by the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:26-27);

• one who is growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior (2 Peter 3:18); and

• one who shares Christ’s burden for the lost souls of men and women. Jesus said, “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into His harvest field” (Matthew 9:37-38).

Read Doc Burkhart's blog at http://docburkhartisthinking.blogspot.com

 

[steve]

seriously guys,
consider why we were originally created

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

Doc,
I understand what you're saying. From my perspective, however, here are some things as I see it.

1. Those who are degreed run the risk of arrogance and self-righteousness due to the fact that there is a piece of paper on the wall from a corporation stating they attended the corporation. Fortunately the vast majority of people that I know who are degreed are not arrogant and do not flaunt it around as one might think. Although they do, unwittingly/unknowingly, a lot of times disregard those of us who are autodidacts as un-knowledgeable.

2. By tradition people almost just naturally think that because someone has a degree that they know something. That's not true and that's not what a degree means. All a degree is, is a piece of paper stating that so-and-so paid the required amount of time, energy, and number of tuition checks to a certain institution. Doesn't really mean that they know anything. Apples to apples, defer to the degreed. But in reality it's hard to tell whether you have apples or tangerines.

3. Autodidacts have an education, knowledge, and wisdom because they have the heart and the thirst for information. The degreed, from my experience, usually attend an institution because they were told that's the only way they get a job, they were told that's the only way to get an education, that if they want to go anywhere in life they need college, or because they want to write their names with some extra letters on the end or at the beginning. Most of the time, especially in the U.S.A society, the degreed wind up with an educational loan that lasts longer than their first two marriages.

I know that people can learn things from colleges and that's their choice. If that's what they want to do then more power to them. In fact I even have a whole collection of college course on CD that I got from http://www.teach12.com/greatcourses.aspx , but I don't owe any money and I didn't waste months of my time and tons of my money with non-related courses such as "college introduction" or "computer basics". It doesn't really matter where or how they got their information. Where their heart is and how they apply the information is key and respect should be given to the autodidacts just as much as those who are degreed. Like I said, all of that is just from my perspective and in my opinion.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

1. Those who are degreed run the risk of arrogance and self-righteousness due to the fact that there is a piece of paper on the wall from a corporation stating they attended the corporation.

True indeed. Paul taught that knowledge puffs up but love edifies. The key for this not to happen is for the one learning to be using it to bless others in grace.

But, there is the opposite error as well, those who do not study at the feet of others run the risk of being arrogant and prideful by their refusal to be humble enough to submit to the process of discipleship (Matt. 10:24-25; Matt. 28:18-20). Sin cuts both ways and the educated and uneducated are at risk of pride and arrogance.

As for the corporation remark that is not totally an accurate picture of the process Todd. Suppose John chooses to attend a Seminary and he receives personal teaching and training by 7 professors who truly love the Lord. His discipleship is not per se from a corporation but from other mature disciples in the Lord. The statement you have made their seems to imply that there are only business entities in place instead of actual discipleship ministries.

Granted, Dr. Lawrence O Richards has written a solid work about the flaws of higher educational systems. But, even so, with due recognition of those flaws there is some solid discipleship in many Bible Colleges and Seminaries that truly do develop the mind and heart of students for the glory of God.

Fortunately the vast majority of people that I know who are degreed are not arrogant and do not flaunt it around as one might think. Although they do, unwittingly/unknowingly, a lot of times disregard those of us who are autodidacts as un-knowledgeable.

Again sin works both ways. Sometimes the educated act as if those who do not have formal degrees cannot be as smart in a field. But some of the smartest and most mature men of the Lord have not had formal training. But those men were educated, just not through the formal processes. If a person has truly been educated they will certainly know some things for sure, but they will also recognize that there is always more to learn and that we can learn something from anyone no matter what their level of education may or may not be.

2. By tradition people almost just naturally think that because someone has a degree that they know something. That's not true and that's not what a degree means. All a degree is, is a piece of paper stating that so-and-so paid the required amount of time, energy, and number of tuition checks to a certain institution. Doesn't really mean that they know anything. Apples to apples, defer to the degreed. But in reality it's hard to tell whether you have apples or tangerines.

Well not exactly. Some may falsely go to school to get the piece of paper. But think about the term itself. What does degree mean? A degree means a certain level of knowledge or skill has been achieved. It means one has the degree of knowledge needed to perform some task or profession or act that requires a certain level of proficiency. Furthermore, a degree can indeed mean a lot.

Those who do not believe degrees mean anything, well to those who think that then the next time they need some type of major surgery then just go find any ole Joe off the street and tell him to perform the surgery. We do not do that because deep down we know that a degree of knowledge is important if the task we are talking about is deeply important.

And when it comes to the art of discipleship how much more serious can we get than when we are dealing with souls that will one day be in heaven or hell? Paul certainly thought education was important for his disciple Timothy (2 Tim. 2:15). Paul was also one of the most devout students ever in the history of our faith. Even at the end of his life he still was eager to study and learn (2 Tim. 4:13).

Education is important (formal or informal) and the more we train our minds and hearts the more we can do for God's kingdom. Even the Lord grew in wisdom and knowledge (Luke 2:52). If he grew in his knowledge and he was without sin how much more do we need to grow in our knowledge when we have sin in us?

As far as time and energy, the more labor we put into learning something the better will normally be at it. Investing in mental and heart training by the power of the Spirit is very helpful and it can do great things for the person's skill in handling the variety of situations that can arise in ministry contexts.

Whether it is an older medical doctor teaching a younger one how to do surgery or an older disciple teaching a younger one how to live a godly life, the task of education (discipleship) is an essential part of the Christian life. Much of our problems today in the faith are so because we have so many people who are not disciples of godly men and women who can teach them how to live out the faith in a mature way. Of course there is a shortage of godly men and women today. But even so, those that are indeed godly still see that many who could use some discipleship pass it up and often refuse to glean what they could get if they would ask for discipleship and be willing to submit to the process.

3. Autodidacts have an education, knowledge, and wisdom because they have the heart and the thirst for information. The degreed, from my experience, usually attend an institution because they were told that's the only way they get a job, they were told that's the only way to get an education, that if they want to go anywhere in life they need college, or because they want to write their names with some extra letters on the end or at the beginning. Most of the time, especially in the U.S.A society, the degreed wind up with an educational loan that lasts longer than their first two marriages.

I agree that education today generally is too expensive. And by all means if you will we can go petition our Congress and State governments to take some steps to get rid of some of the regulations that cause schools to charge so much.

But many of us Todd, myself as one of them, chose to attend college and seminary not because of what job it would get us but because we saw the training of our heart and mind as a key way to be good stewards of the brain that God gave us. Many of us have even earned degrees in those fields and we minister for free and never use our degree to obtain money for what we do with it in the Lord's work. In my view it is sinful and wasteful not to prepare my mind for action, as Peter said, and mental training through a college and seminary is ONE way, not the only way, but truly one good way to develop good mental skills for the calling and work of the Lord in life.

As for the extra letters, you are right some might use those as a way to bolster their own ego. But, too, some of use those letters not to bolster our own ego but as a means to evangelize and edify. Paul taught us to become a Jew to the Jew and Gentile to the Gentiles so that we might win some. There are those people who the Lord will bring to us that we can reach by the Holy Spirit using that degree and credentialization as a means to the end of gaining their trust, attention, and eventually their mind and heart as they listen to us.

Furthermore, the degree can be an aid to get into doors that otherwise would not be open to those without it. The key is about evangelism. We who have degrees need to be able to talk with the variety of sociological classes in society. Indeed some who go through formal education fail to learn how to do this and thus it limits them. But if we are well educated then we who have degrees will learn how to minister to those differing classes of people from all walks of life. We should, if properly trained, be able to talk to the homeless person on the street who may have never finished 1st grade and then be able to have dinner and converse with a wealthy community leader who oversees millions of dollars, multiple corporations and businesses, and who is a knowledgeable in multiple disciplines of thought/subjects. Why? Because if we love Christ and we are gospel centered we will do all we can to be able to reach any and all people and we will train and discipline ourselves so that we can talk with people from various backgrounds because of love for our neighbor. We will love people so much that we will suffer through many hours of rigorous training in the discipleship process so that we might win some to Christ.

The Great Commission is the ultimate reason to why we learn what we learn in life, i.e. if we are serious about the lost. Why do we need to learn English? So we can communicate the gospel as needed? Why do we need to learn science? So we can reach the scientist with the gospel. Why do we need to learn medicine? So that we can reach people with the gospel through the service of mercy ministries.

Of course, none of us can learn it all and thus this is the reason for the body of Christ. Some will be gifted in the field of science. Some will be more gifted in the field of theolgy and teaching of theology (bible doctrine). Some will be more gifted in serving roles where they will help spread the gospel by being involved in roles like hospitality, mercy ministries, etc. But all in all education is a key and important tool for taking the gospel to others. The Great Commission calls for people to grow mentally. Mental growth is spiritual growth and if used properly it is a gracious means that is blessed by God himself for his glory to be magnified.

 

[Tlaloc]

"Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously."

I quote that as seriously as I do cynically. The Crux of the issue is that no one is ever transformed by education. They may be transformed by Christ during their education, but the learning itself doesn't make them holy or wise. If they where wise before they went then they get their arsenal expanded and become more dangerous and subtle. If they where fools in they will be much worse proud fools coming out. And at least in my area many a fool enters bible college due to family pressure or some other silly drive. Teachers aren't miracle workers, at least not in and of themselves. Give a good teacher a good student and a great thing will come out of it, but the majority is bound to give education a bad name.

Secondarily the institutionalized aspect is dangerous in the long term. Institutions change hands and the prestige can bring people with less than solid convictions into control of a board or whole facility. There are plenty of Bible schools that have doped the importance of biblical accuracy and other things, when it comes to abstract ideological\philosophical\theological education a degree may mean very close to nothing at all if you don't ask where it came from. Obviously Doc and Keith are associated with still strong and faithful schools, but I wonder if that is even the norm anymore. A degree shows that a person has studied something, but does not prove weather they are competent in their field or weather they even agree with or apply what they studied. Even with a doctor one must get to know them and preferably check their records and reputation before entrusting them with your health. Goodness knows I have, especially if they have not practiced long in my city or province.

Third much of institutionalized education takes its students out of actual ministry and service while they study. The lack of practical training is a brutal mistake that leaves many new ministers woefully under-prepared, I know too many that had to learn too much the hard way. Only one of the three institutions I know in my area does regular practical ministry, and it does it well, its too bad it is also the smallest Bible School of the three.

Fourth, a good church should provide much of what I've seen as first (and even second and above) year curriculum in Bible Schools. On the whole it is the job of the Church to instruct its member's in Theology, I can understand specialized teachers for specialized studies, but teaching and disciplining is the job of the local church and not something it should be sending its people away too. Lack of teaching and milk and water preaching is a serious education-related problem. Extended formal education should be on the whole less useful than it now is.


On the whole education is not too bad, but professors who have been nothing but professors are both too prominent and not very good at some elements of their profession. Practical experience is needed to teach, when one is lucky enough to have a good old teacher with lots of time honed wisdom thats a treasure trove, but nothing you can't get (for free even) by taking a few years to study under a pastor or evangelist actively preaching. Specialization such as language studies does pretty much take an academic environment though.

I have my secular education, which was the mixed bag I talked about here, a few good teachers with valuable knowledge and many foolish teachers (which I may use here, it is secular education and each of these certainly said in their hearts 'there is no God'). I never will attend Bible college simply since from the time I was a teen my theological knowledge easily outclassed the average bible school student (which sadly isn't saying much, at least the products of the schools I know in my area) and I can certainly keep up with the best students I know (and I would think most would understand that as an accurate representation rather than a vanity). Moreover the teachers I have are more valuable to me than any particular formal teacher I know, so I am content with learning in church. Of course I also do not aspire to church leadership, and that makes formal study on the whole less appealing and less expedient than actual discipline under pastors and church leadership.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Third much of institutionalized education takes its students out of actual ministry and service while they study. The lack of practical training is a brutal mistake that leaves many new ministers woefully under-prepared, I know too many that had to learn too much the hard way. Only one of the three institutions I know in my area does regular practical ministry, and it does it well, its too bad it is also the smallest Bible School of the three.

This was one of the key points to that reference work by Dr. Lawrence O Richards', "A Theology of Christian Education."

Also, scholar and teacher Bill Luck, former professor of Moody Bible Institute has well noted this as well.

A Key issue is the need for education to actually produce people with skills and ideas that be put to use.

I deplore with a passion schools, colleges, and seminaries that simply spit out facts and produce students who cannot put to use the ideas they learn. But this is a problem not just with Bible Colleges but with the WHOLE educational systems across the board.

Dorothy Sayers spoke of the type of education systems we ned to return today. You find it in the modern day classical schools. That type of education was spoke about by Apostle John were he spoke of children, young men, and fathers. Dr. John Stott in writing on Apostle John's writings has noted that in many cases we are only giving people facts. But a truly God honoring education must do more. It must actually take someone from facts to the proper use of the facts and then train them in how to use those facts in building up someone else through discipleship in those facts. This educational methdology applies to all spheres of life, not just in Bible College.

I'm of the persuasion what would be the best system is for us to return to apprentice type models of education in all fields. I believe this would do us better than what we have today. We need medical doctors who were skilled who would mentor younger upcoming doctors. We need carpenters who would mentor upcoming younger carpenters. We need Bible teachers and pastors to mentor new and upcoming spiritual leaders. This too would be one way we could reduce the massive expenses of what the modern educational systems have become. It could drastically reduce the price of education and at the same time give every person an opportunity to grow in a field they love and desire to be using the gifts God has given to them.

And Tlaloc, yes, indeed, it is one of the best ways to learn is at the feet of a skilled teacher, preacher, or evangelist. That is discipleship and that is one of the best ways, that is if that leader is skilled and mature. But if that person is also immature then it will only breede immaturity.

And I think that is where we would all agree, at least I hope anyway. The goal is for us to find mature, solid, and wise spiritual leaders that we can learn from, and then study from them and allow themn to train us. For some of us that has come through Bible Colleges and Seminaries. For some it has come from the feet of pastors or other skilled spiritual leaders.

But wherever it comes from we must, if humble and truly eager to be like Christ, be willing to be educated and trained. It is was the way of Christ and still is for his saints today.

Sometimes in our effort to expose a problem we produce an even worse error. The answer is not to throw away education and the need for it, but rather the goal is to make education as close to being a truly biblical education model as we possible.

By the way Tlaloc, I have a question for you. How do your educational systems there where you live compare to the way we do education here? Do you see a major difference? Or do you see them as taking the same pedagogical avenues that we have here in the states? Most systems today seem to follow the same ecclesiastical models set up by European Scholastics in the 1400's where universities came to prominence. Is that the norm where you are?

 

[Tlaloc]

I agree that problem, and most the problems I mentioned, are not Bible school specific. The only bible school specific problem is liberalization and secularization while still maintaining the name Bible School. I also agree that a practical environment like an apprenticeship. The practicums required with some degrees are generally minimal, and I'd be of the view that splitting a four year degree between two years of concentrated academics and two years of practical (and even paid, as by that point they will have skills to merit some pay) apprenticeship would produce more mature specialists and, as you say, reduce the cost of education in general.

Here it is essentially the same books and lecture hall formal approach. I tend to see the Scholastics as generally allowing students more liberty to discuss and debate their teachers than schools here and now would allow, but they style is the same. If you where only sitting in on a class and didn't know where you where you would not generally be able to tell which country you're in by the method or content, only the subtle language differences could give it away' Of the three I know the smaller one I mentioned before is a little different, it has normal classes in the afternoon and has many required outreach or discipline or missions programs, students must be involved at the church the school is associated with both as members and as lay teachers (Assisting with bible studies ect...) they also must take part in outreach initiatives in local cities and do a certain amount of general volunteerism. The other two do occasionally set up a kind of apprenticeship in that they introduce graduating students to pastors and give them the chance to be an assistant-pastor in that church before leading their own, but that is sadly very rare. Thirty years ago it would have been the normal procedure with one, but the leadership in the school simply hasn't valued that approach since then, preferring to 'get pastors out in the field and let them make their own mistakes'. That approach seems self defeating, especially in light of WHY Doc valued (and most people should) getting an education in the first place.


The model of a church integrated Bible education appears much more solid than autonomous schools operating on their own with loose associations with churches. I believe, though perhaps overestimate, that it would be harder for Bible schools to secularize themselves if they where accountable to a large congregation of believers. Also in such a setting students would readily have access to hands on work and apprenticeship under pastors and elders while studying the academic side of theology. Building a bible school right into a large church is not unheard of and it seems higher academics should be a natural extension of a church body in order to feed and train academically inclined or pastorate called members. It would also help keep school leadership accountable, which is a big deal to me as it seems once a new member gets on a school board dislodging them is next to impossible even if they see the bible as a good book rather than the Perfect Word of God, and see Christianity as something that can help society rather than Christ being the Reason society still exists. It's sad for me to see schools lose their way, of the three one lost its way many years ago, and the other seems to have wandered greatly in the last decade (Which is especially sad since my family has been closely associated with that school since it was founded) They recently felt the need to take "Full Gospel" and "Bible" out of their name. For all of the 'change is good' and 'its no big deal' rhetoric I somehow cannot believe it is no big deal... I suppose that too is a big reason for me not attending Bible School like most my family did.

The answer is not to throw away education and the need for it, but rather the goal is to make education as close to being a truly biblical education model as we possible.

I agree, and I suppose that is really my biggest concern as well. I would like to re-iterate my first point that some of the perceived problems with education are not the fault of the system itself but rather the student. At least in my area I have seen many young Christians pushed into bible school by their families even though they don't have the interest in theology or interpersonal talents it takes to lead. Worse I see young men who have very weak convictions get pushed into school who become pastors and leaders who still have weak convictions and pass on their doubts rather than their faith. Only Christ can make a Christian, and none of those cases are the fault of the schools that taught them (except perhaps the weak convictions, in which case they should arguably be denied graduation)

But if I was to say my ideal solution it would be the same as yours, more apprenticeship and more practical work, which to me means working closely with a church or associated churches.

 

[CecilW]

Just for fun, let me propose a theory:

If you walk into a man's home and find a degree on his wall, but no books to speak of, he may have obtained a degree, and thus a type of narrow education, but he probably isn't educated.

If you walk into his home, and find lots and lots of serious books, dog-eared, underlined, with handwritten notes in the margins, but no degree on his wall, he likely IS an educated man, who has sat at the feet (figuratively) and been discipled by each and every author who gave his best in a book that man absorbed, read, pondered, interacted with, and allowed to change his life.

Any takers on my theory?

Yes, I have known men who were/did both. They got a degree AND remained avid students. Sometimes you have to know them awhile before you even learn they got letters to use surrounding their names.

However, like other members here, I've sadly known too many who appealed to their letters when cornered in a discussion and/or as a means of shouting someone else down.

As a college freshman, I had a professor who said, "Our job as college professors is to teach you how to learn for yourself. Once you've done that our job is done. You might as well leave school, save the money, and get on with life."

I took him seriously, and never have finished a degree, though I work on one from time to time. (Siblings and cousins all have 'em. I feel a bit left out!) As to whether I, or Todd, or Ylop are educated, well, come for a visit and inspect our libraries! :lol:

 

[Tlaloc]

I like the premise, but I think the raw amount of digitalized material kills the application. Actual libraries also kind of undermine it. How much digital material someone has stored doesn't show up on a bookshelf, neither do borrowed and returned books. I also have the double-eged habit of giving books away to interested friends after I've studied them, as consequence I only have one bookshelf, its a little overflowing, but it's not much...

 

[CecilW]

Yeah. Technology is changing everything.

However, without wanting to be a Luddite, I am hanging onto my books! (I buy copies for friends. Mine are too marked up and personal by the time I'm done.)

Every time I even think of digitizing everything, I am reminded of Heinlein's "Friday", a book which caused me to do a lot of thinking about both the advantages and limits of technology, along with a number of other issues.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Yep, I agree Cecil. Education can be through either formal or informal processes. The degree is the issue (not the piece of paper). By Degree I mean in the context of knowing/learning the material/subject and being able to properly apply/use it in wisdom to a particular context in life.

But, therein is still where we have such a problem even in Christian circles. Many people today fail to actually read and study (digital or hardcopy material). Then even among those that read sometimes there is still the problem of reading/finding credible sources from those who have good character and rightly understand who God is and how he works. Those were two of the reasons, among others, why so many of the Puritans taught in lecture format and wrote books for their people/disciples. It was why Calvin and Luther were two of the most prolific writers in church history as well as some of the early church fathers like Chrysostom, Augustine, and others.

Wherever the pure gospel spread so did the love for education and knowledge. As Peter said, ""grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 3:18).

Oh, and yes Cecil, it is for sure a shame that those who claim to have education would ever use that in "shouting someone down,"as if that would ever convince a person of anything other than that such a person doing that is a just an immature wrathful person. (By the way, that is still one of the issues that plagues some versions of fundamentalism. Ever met one of those preachers that gets on a roll and begins to yell, scream, and shout about hell and then says something like this.....'THOSE SINNERS WHO DO SUCH THINGS ARE ON THEIR WAY TO HELL, PRAISE GOD :evil: .' I cringe when I see someone talk about hell and they seem unmoved, untouched, and glad about it instead of broken, with tears, and in pain that people will be there....I do not know how we can truly believe that people are there today suffering without feeling pain in our hearts about that).

In any case, I think that was why Paul said "knowledge puffs up but love edifies." The whole goal of knowledge, if in step with the power of the Holy Spirit, is to build someone up in the grace (power) of Christ.

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

As for the corporation remark that is not totally an accurate picture of the process Todd. Suppose John chooses to attend a Seminary and he receives personal teaching and training by 7 professors who truly love the Lord. His discipleship is not per se from a corporation but from other mature disciples in the Lord. The statement you have made their seems to imply that there are only business entities in place instead of actual discipleship ministries.

If they weren't getting paid as well, they probably wouldn't be there.

But some of the smartest and most mature men of the Lord have not had formal training. But those men were educated, just not through the formal processes. If a person has truly been educated they will certainly know some things for sure, but they will also recognize that there is always more to learn and that we can learn something from anyone no matter what their level of education may or may not be.

And that's exactly the point. Completely agreed!! Let's make it a point unto ourselves this year to not even think about degrees and institutions, but rather judge people based on their knowledge. Knowledge and education isn't based on a degree. It's still a matter of heart.

A degree means a certain level of knowledge or skill has been achieved. It means one has the degree of knowledge needed to perform some task or profession or act that requires a certain level of proficiency.

I didn't get a degree when I graduated boot camp. Does that mean I don't have the degree of knowledge to properly be a Marine? I've created many many websites before (not designed), but don't have a degree. Does that mean that I don't have the degree of knowledge to construct websites? I have changed tires, engine oil. and various parts without an engineering degree. Does that mean that I don't have the degree of knowledge to be a mechanic?

Those who do not believe degrees mean anything, well to those who think that then the next time they need some type of major surgery then just go find any ole Joe off the street and tell him to perform the surgery.

Well, you're jumping the gun here. Obama-care hasn't begun yet. (lol, sorry, I had to go there with a comment like that)

And when it comes to the art of discipleship how much more serious can we get than when we are dealing with souls that will one day be in heaven or hell? Paul certainly thought education was important for his disciple Timothy (2 Tim. 2:15). Paul was also one of the most devout students ever in the history of our faith. Even at the end of his life he still was eager to study and learn (2 Tim. 4:13).

Very, very true. But the Apostle Saul didn't have a degree. Well, he was a pharisee meaning that he was most likely educated in the institution before his conversion, but he didn't need a degree or institutionalized to know his previous ways of doing things wasn't right.

If he grew in his knowledge and he was without sin how much more do we need to grow in our knowledge when we have sin in us?

Exactly, grow in knowledge. Doesn't have to come from an institution. Even autodidacts increase in knowledge just the same, agreed?

But many of us Todd, myself as one of them, chose to attend college and seminary not because of what job it would get us but because we saw the training of our heart and mind as a key way to be good stewards of the brain that God gave us.

And there is nothing wrong with that. That was a choice you made. You had every right to. I choose not to go to an institution for the same reasons though. The training of my heart and mind and being a good steward of the brain that Yahuweh gave me.

There are those people who the Lord will bring to us that we can reach by the Holy Spirit using that degree and credentialization as a means to the end of gaining their trust, attention, and eventually their mind and heart as they listen to us.

We can reach them by the Holy Spirit "BY" the Holy Spirit, right? Nothing else needed.

We who have degrees need to be able to talk with the variety of sociological classes in society. ........We should, if properly trained, be able to talk to the homeless person on the street who may have never finished 1st grade and then be able to have dinner and converse with a wealthy community leader who oversees millions of dollars, multiple corporations and businesses, and who is a knowledgeable in multiple disciplines of thought/subjects.

Are only the degreed able to do such things? Absolutely not. Degrees have nothing to do with it. Skill, experience, knowledge, wisdom, heart, etc are what allow anyone, degreed or not, to do those things

Why do we need to learn English?

¿qué pasa? no comprende!

Some will be more gifted in the field of theolgy and teaching of theology (bible doctrine). Some will be more gifted in serving roles where they will help spread the gospel by being involved in roles like hospitality, mercy ministries, etc.

Yes, and as leaders we need to observe and notice people's gifts and not tell them what their gift is. Along with that is repeated evaluation of ourselves, to better understand ourselves, and to realize where we are/were/will be.

 

[Tlaloc]

In most cases I never had the hardcopy of the digitalized book too hang onto, though there are some cases where I special ordered a hardcopy of a book I had digitally (those are generally ones I don't give away, like Finney and Madan). I have never actually digitialized anything, though I want to digitize 'after polygamy became a sin' if ever I go and see if I've found it.

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

"Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously."

lol, I love that quote!!

Only one of the three institutions I know in my area does regular practical ministry, and it does it well, its too bad it is also the smallest Bible School of the three.

A lot of times smaller schools mean better experience.

Fourth, a good church should provide much of what I've seen as first (and even second and above) year curriculum in Bible Schools. On the whole it is the job of the Church to instruct its member's in Theology, I can understand specialized teachers for specialized studies, but teaching and disciplining is the job of the local church and not something it should be sending its people away too. Lack of teaching and milk and water preaching is a serious education-related problem. Extended formal education should be on the whole less useful than it now is.

EXACTLY!!! RIGHT THERE!!! THAT'S A GRAND SLAM OUT OF THE BALL PARK!!!! That's one of the biggest things I've disagreed with the church about. You go to church on sunday morning and service after service after service it's nothing but Jesus this and salvation that. Great, wonderful, but big deal. It's NOT the preacher's job to try and get people saved in service. Church/temple is for learning and education. We should be teaching and equipping the congregation to go OUT and lead people to Yahushua. This current philosophy is of course evident in the 50% divorce rate among Christians, the massive amounts of debt among Christians, unruly children among Christians, etc etc. Go and get the education right there in church/temple instead of going somewhere you don't need to. If your preacher isn't teaching things in the Scriptures except for trying to save the saved, then FIRE that preacher or go somewhere that does it the Scriptural way. Did Yahushua teach in the temple and spread the gospel in the streets or did He spread the gospel in the temple? hmmmmm.....

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

Just for fun, let me propose a theory:

That's a good theory Cecil and I completely agree. Although I would have to put hard-drive right there with bookshelf nowadays. I am however starting to go back to a more hands on approach. Getting more things that I can hold in my hands and physically highlight and underline. Maybe I just subliminally know it'll be easier for when I officially turn old this year.

 

[Tlaloc]

If they weren't getting paid as well, they probably wouldn't be there.

A workman is worth his wages, and if they where getting paid they probably couldn't be there. Pastors and evangelists are paid as well, and while many of the best I know are 'tentmakers' who hold part time jobs as well, they do deserve some kind of pay for the amount of time and work that goes into what they do.

I suppose I have an easier going perspective than you Todd since even though I am also autodidact I've never encountered most of the problems associated with it. None of my many formal educated friends and relatives gives any instance of thinking I am less educated than them, and in my denomination leadership roles are based on merit and a congregational vote, while most leaders are formal educated it is not necessary or looked down upon when someone isn't. My practical polygamist persuasions and pugilist predisposition presents my personal problem with pursuing pastoral powers. But if I was called, I could go without education baring my way.

My problem with formal education is that on the secular side it has been the forward push to bring Marxism to North America, and on the theological side many Bible schools have been secularizing themselves and producing the blood and controversy free united church type leadership. To me those are tangible threats to Christianity and freedom, and a certain amount of autodidacts are necessary to help keep education in check from external pressure.

 

[Anonymous]

Tlaloc wrote "My practical polygamist persuasions and pugilist predisposition presents my personal problem with pursuing pastoral powers."

I can't help myself. How long did it take for you to come up with this sentence? :lol:

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Todd in philosophy we have something called linguistic analytical analysis. In theology we have something called etymology and semantical studies.

What is all of that? In the country or in redneckville we have a term called called shooting past one another.

I think we have some semantical problems in our language whereas there is one definition being used by one and another definition being used by another while both use the same term. In this case it seems to be with the term degree itself.

You seem to be using the term degree as a word to describe the formal piece of paper awarded by an institution. I am using the word degree to mean a level of knowledge and skill in practice which can be recognized either formally or informally.

That is where I think we are shooting past one another in conversation.

So let me say it this way and see if it helps.

I believe the discipleship process calls for us to be students, disciples, of those who are older and more mature than we are in the word. We are to grow and obtain a degree of proficiency in the art of living for Christ and reproducing others in his image as we follow Christ. Knowledge is one key component of growing in grace. All of us are to grow in our degree of knowledge and increase that progressively over time.

Some do this through informal processes. Some do this through formal processes. But all are to do it.

Also, one other point. Have you ever heard of an honorary doctoral degree? It is a degree bestowed upon someone who has shown great skill, or maturity in some field of thought (science, theology, etc). For example, Dr. Billy Graham has received numerous doctoral degrees because he has shown great leadership skill and maturity in his field of evangelism and with the founding of the Evangelistic Association he has led for many years. He had the degree before he was ever awarded or recognized with the ceremonial aspect of it.

I think you might be thinking I am saying the degree is the piece of paper or the recognition process of it. I am NOT saying that. The degree is internal. And at times when people arrive at a certain level of knowledge or when they achieve a certain degree of knowledge some discipleship organizations or educational organizations recognize that level in the person and thus award the person by a public recognition of it.

Hopefully this clears up where I think we are talking around each other.

 

[Tlaloc]

lol, I love that quote!!

The quote is from G. K. Chesterton "The apostle of common sense."

A lot of times smaller schools mean better experience.

Agreed the second, now failing (spiritually, not economically) school I'm talking about was much better when it was small too.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

I agree, Fire the preacher that does not leave the basic doctrines to move on to higher things.

Oh, and John, not long, I just usually don't write things out that I think up in alliteration or rhyme (unless I'm talking to my kids) I just failed to suppress the urge this time.
Post production and pre presentation a problem with what to put after pugilist presented itself, and that postponed me after pushing preview. So it cost a couple minutes to complete.