Growing through the scriptures

[The Duke Of Marshall]

A workman is worth his wages, and if they where getting paid they probably couldn't be there. Pastors and evangelists are paid as well, and while many of the best I know are 'tentmakers' who hold part time jobs as well, they do deserve some kind of pay for the amount of time and work that goes into what they do.

Is one called to preach/evangelize for the profit of money or the profit of Heaven? I agree that a preacher/rabbi/priest/etc should be supported. The seminary baptist church that I used to go to as a kid had a parsonage behind the church. The preacher and his family lived there and the church paid for the utilities, maintenance, car, food, and things that a person needs to live on or further the word and the church. Everything above and beyond that the preacher and/or his wife worked to make money for. Of course by that point they didn't need to make a whole lot to go to the movies or what not.

My problem with formal education is that on the secular side it has been the forward push to bring Marxism to North America, ....

YES!!!!!! Others see this happening too!!! Is it really that obvious nowadays?

....and on the theological side many Bible schools have been secularizing themselves and producing the blood and controversy free united church type leadership.

"free united church type"? Does this remind anyone else of the "universal" church that Constantine created back about the fourth century? I think they called it the "Roman Universal Church". No...........wait...............that's not right. What's that other word for universal? hmmmmmmm..................OH YEAH! "Catholic" It was the "Roman Catholic Church".

....a certain amount of autodidacts are necessary to help keep education in check from external pressure.

Checks and balances. I completely agree and it's obviously clear. You hit it right on there!

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

I think we have some semantical problems in our language whereas there is one definition being used by one and another definition being used by another while both use the same term. In this case it seems to be with the term degree itself.

You seem to be using the term degree as a word to describe the formal piece of paper awarded by an institution. I am using the word degree to mean a level of knowledge and skill in practice which can be recognized either formally or informally.

Ahh, yes my good man. After rolling it around in my noggin for a short time I do believe you to be correct sir. Unfortunately it got me to thinking "How many other times and threads in this forum have people done the same thing?" One addition as well: I also think of the term, loosely as including everything that goes with it such as curriculum, agenda of the staff/board/leaders/professors, & specific doctrine of the school.

I believe the discipleship process calls for us to be students, disciples, of those who are older and more mature than we are in the word. We are to grow and obtain a degree of proficiency in the art of living for Christ and reproducing others in his image as we follow Christ. Knowledge is one key component of growing in grace. All of us are to grow in our degree of knowledge and increase that progressively over time.

Some do this through informal processes. Some do this through formal processes. But all are to do it.

Completely agreed. Many, many scriptures point to this as well. In fact, I do the Billy Graham thing of a chapter of Proverbs every day, and it's amazing the amount of proverbs there are about wisdom and knowledge. Unless I'm mistaken, there are at least two verses about it in every chapter.

Also, one other point. Have you ever heard of an honorary doctoral degree?

Oh yes. Ooohhhhh, yes. In fact that is one thing that I hope to achieve one day. The granting of an honorary doctorate. Personally, and no offense to anyone, it just seems like something that is more earned in my opinion than graduating from an institution.

 

[Tlaloc]

Mega televangelist institutions aside, I don't know that many bible profs are at risk of being overpaid. I agree with the approach of paying for needs and letting them work for extras, its essentially how my Church does it, but not so directly, its just he is not paid much more than he strictly needs and needs to work to have money to travel and visit family or fund his hobbies and extra things.

Marxism in universities is way too obvious nowdays, even my mom who made a very hard push for education when she was young and pushed me when I was young is leery of it... It needs to be stooped somehow or we are in great danger. I have shot down my fair number of Marxists by getting them to look at what their hero's belief actually means, but there are so many of them its hard not to succumb the sheer numbers of the myridminions.

I don't know if you have the United Church Denomination down south, I'm sorry I assumed. Put it this way, most politicians (conservative or socialist) come from the united church They are Blood free, in that they don't acknowledge blood atonement (and would refuse to sing a song like Power in the Blood) and controversy free, in that they have very little argument with worldliness. The United Church is a pretty major denomination here, and they try to appear just like every other Christian, but orthodox they are not.

Checks and balances Lets keep working together with good formal educated types here and try to check the not so good ones out there

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

No, as far as "United Church" title/denomination I don't have any in my area. Although I do have a church in the area which utilizes belly dancers and there are churches in the area with gay clergy/preachers.

 

[CecilW]

I do have a church in the area which utilizes belly dancers.

Do you plan to stand outside THOSE doors with a sandwich board sign, "Free to a good home ..."? :lol:

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

Do you plan to stand outside THOSE doors with a sandwich board sign, "Free to a good home ..."? :lol:

Hey, now there's an idea!!

 

[steve]

Do you plan to stand outside THOSE doors with a sandwich board sign, "Free to a good home ..."? :lol:

Hey, now there's an idea!!

ESPECIALLY if the dancers are formaly trained at it!

please do not take my position as being against formal education, i am just against the veneration of formal education to the exclusion and seeming dismissal of less formal education.

i just started the book, Birdman Of Alcatraz. incarcerated as a young man who had exited the school system during the third grade, he went on to amazing levels of education while in solitary confinement and wrote a definitive book on bird diseases.

saul had a great education in the religious system of the time and had access to the disciples who sat at Yeshua's feet, but ministered and wrote so much of the new testament in the power of the Holy Spirit.

martin luther was well educated, but whose feet did he sit at to learn the truths that changed the face and history of christianity?

it sometimes seems that education is venerated as being handed down from teacher to student so that it becomes a doctrine of succession, much the same as the catholic papal office.
it is extremely useful for maintaining the status quo.

in the story with mary sitting at Yeshua's feet and learning from him we see martha chiding her for not serving Yeshua. it seems to me that the temptation is to sit at the feet of the teachers in order to serve him, while the place at his feet goes empty.
relationship, my friends, is what we are here for.
not service.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Todd Said: Oh yes. Ooohhhhh, yes. In fact that is one thing that I hope to achieve one day. The granting of an honorary doctorate. Personally, and no offense to anyone, it just seems like something that is more earned in my opinion than graduating from an institution.

Well then, does it help me or hurt me that my first Doctoral degree was an honorary one granted to me based upon my skill in ministry, my evangelism work and success, and also based upon my advanced theological writings in the fierld of apologetics and theology? I don't often mention it because I do not want to brag and speak about having double doctoral degrees. But if it helps you to know that then great. When all is said and done I'll have a total of three with two masters degrees as well.

One of the greatest theologians in the history of the church was Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer. He too had a total of three degrees. He had a Th.D, DD, and Lit. D. and ALL three were granted to him in an honorary status. He never had one hour of formal theological classroom training yet he produced an 8 volume set of systematic theology that is still used today around the world, and he built by the power of the Holy Spirit what is known today as Dallas Theological Seminary, one very respected Seminary across the globe.

But Chafer did not just learn from the books. He was an actual disciple, not just of books, but by older men before him. One of his several mentors was actually a lawyer and Congressman, C.I. Scofield. Scofield mentored Chafer and discipled Chafer. He did write some things different than what Scofield believed and corrected some things but he was truly blessed and enriched by Scofield and his others mentors.

One of my mentors, Bill Luck, who has meant so much to me and has been so helpful to me in my discipleship, his father was mentored by Dr. Chafer. Actually several of my teachers over the years were students of Chafer.

Do you see the chain there and how discipleship is like dominoes? The older train the younger and then the younger become the older ones who in turn train the younger ones who repeat the process. Sure, it is not perfect but anything less is not the way Christ or the apostles taught us to do it. And when a student learns somewthing the teacher did not know he is to share that with the teacher (see Gal. 6). This process is the biblical process and it is a relational discipleship process (either in formal or nonformal contexts, either way works so long as one gets the process of discipleship).

So again for me the issue is truly the degree, a degree of knowledge that is discipled into us by us being willing to sit down and learn from others.

And of course books are good, but the actual time spent with and at the feet of a more mature man who can dialog with you and correct you and grow you is even better and it must be the best. That was how Christ taught his disciples and how the apostles trained their disciples.

But, due to pride many like to just read only books and never actually spend any time with anyone older than them in the Lord. Why? Well, hey that author can't hold you accountable if you are just reading his book. It is makes it easy for the pride inside of us to still dominate. There is a difference when you actually have someone live to hold you accountable as you grow and build a theology.

And that is why again for me, I've chosen to be trained at the feet of older men, more mature men, and I have gleaned a lot from both their writings and from theirt actual presence, and yes even from them rebuking me along the way and busting my butt for being stupid, lazy, careless with the word of God, or for not being consistent in my theology. It has done great things for me. For some of it I have paid for it, at times I have not paid anything, but the hard knocks of being grilled by someone older than me in the Lord who rides me like a horse until I get straight! But in the end it has helped me greatly. It would do great things for others as well if they would truly receive discipleship.

Dr. Allen

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

It would do great things for others as well if they would truly receive discipleship.

Ahhh, now the million dollar question is: Who is it that we should look up to and learn from, how do we know what they are teaching us is correct, and how do we determine their agenda?

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Todd,

I think it is more simple than one might think. The key is primarily twofold: (1) do they have solid character and show it through a mature love for God and service to others, & (2) do they have a solid understanding of how to interpret Scripture in its literal, historical, and grammatical context.

If those two things are in place many others things will be there as well. Dr. Norman Geisler, founder of Southern Evangelical Seminary, and one of the world's most solid biblical apologists adds that if those things above are in place we will have the 3 elements of verification to know:

1. Epistemological Essentials (the right view of Scripture and inspiration)
2. Hermeneutical Essentials (proper rules applied for proper interpretation)
3. Doctrinal Essentials that are correct (the big seven I have referenced before that mark true Christianity)

Those are the foundational keys to know if someone is mature or immature and worthy or unworthy to be a teacher for the disciple. Dr. Millard J. Erickson also has a good section on the proper process to "build a theology" that is very helpful as well. It is a guide to how to properly approach building a faithful and holistic theology instead of what we sometimes call a shotgun blast approach to Scripture, a little dibble here and little dabble there without a consistent harmonization. It is like a shot of buck shot where the views are spread out and not really connected instead of a straight rifle shot. Maybe not the best illustration but I understood it when given to me. I think the point is that we need to see the harmony of all Scripture in its systematic form so that we can make mature full well grounded and balanced disciples.

When I have time I'll post Dr. Erickson's biblical methodology. Charles Wesley also had a process for how to properly approach the Bible and how to tell true discipleship from bad discipleship.

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

Well, here's my list of attributes to look for in a teacher:

• Humility
• Experience
• Maturity
• Character
• Objectivity
• Live their life like they preach/teach
• Understanding that they don't know everything and are willing to accept that they are wrong
• They continue to learn from others both less experienced and more experienced, less wise and more wise

I know that I can learn something from just about everyone. From the homeless guy on the street to the millionaire in the mansion, from the kindergardener to the nuclear physicist.