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LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BOOK OF HEBREWS

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@rockfox Here's an example: Passover is not a 'false tradition.' Putting a boiled egg on the plate IS a false tradition. It's called the leaven of the Pharisees. Christianity in general, me having come out of the false traditions of said religious system, does not understand because they falsely assume it is all tradition. It is not. Exodus 12:14 and 24 tell us Passover is an 'ordinance' (Chuqqah) 'forever' in all your dwelling places.

Why is this important? I bet you sing, 'These are the Days of Elijah.' Well, bro, that isn't some feel good worship song. It has Scriptural backing and happens to apply today, right now! Malachi 4 is key chapter regarding the end of days and v4 says, 'Remember the Torah of Moses, My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel. Behold, I am sending you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord....'

Why is the earth judged by fire? Isaiah 24 has the answer, but especially see vss. 5-6: 'The earth is also polluted by its inhabitants, for they transgressed TORAH, violated STATUTES, broke the everlasting covenant. Therefore, a curse devours the earth and those who live in it are held guilty. Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.

What the Church skips, ignores, and even hates, are the statutes and ordinances of God that He says are everlasting, forever.

Let me alter the question a bit: If Yeshua/Jesus had skipped a Passover, would He still have been the perfect sinless Lamb of God? Yes or No?
 
Do you deem that to be the same law that was given at Sinai? If so, when was it given to Abraham?
Abraham heard if from his fathers. His life overlapped Noah by 50 years and he died before Shem did...

Riddle me this: How did Abel know to 'bring of the firstlings of his flock and their fat portions?' Gen 4:4? Why did God have regard for Abel's offering and not Cain? Were they supposed to magically figure it out as they went? If so, is God a just God by judging Abel righteous and not judging Cain? Or, when God said 'sin was crouching at the door' how did Cain even know what sin was, or what God was talking about? How was God just in judging Cain without having instructed him that killing was wrong? How did Cain know that vengeance could be taken on him? (v 14)

More examples: How could Noah curse Ham? How did the Shem and Japheth know that (whatever happened) was wrong? How could God judge them on that? By what authority did Noah curse? How about Abraham bringing a tenth? Lucky guess on that number? What was the basis for God's judgment of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboim? How could He hold them accountable if He never gave them the proper standard for caring for widows and orphans? Or, Lot, why did he feed the angels matzah (unleavened bread)? Why was he observing Passover? And, Moses is the first to use the term Shabbat in Exodus 16. Magic? Or, does 'Remember the Sabbath' mean 'REMEMBER (what you already know to be doing by have ceased to do in Egypt... not unlike the Church now scattered in Egypt) the Sabbath!

And, there are a number of other examples throughout Genesis that they had a huge part of if not all of the Torah, whether verbal or even in written form. (Allegedly, there is a Book of Enoch... if that was written, why not other important things, like... God's instructions?)

Jeremiah 6:16-19 is apropos:

16 Thus says the Lord,
Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths,
Where the good way is, and walk in it
;
And you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’
17 “And I set watchmen over you, saying,
‘Listen to the sound of the trumpet!’
But they said, ‘We will not listen.’
18 “Therefore hear, O nations,
And know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 “Hear, O earth: behold, I am bringing disaster on this people,
The fruit of their plans,
Because they have not listened to My words,
And as for My law (Torah), they have rejected it also.

Brother, if God judged them for rejecting His ways, His Torah, but then allows this generation to thumb their noses at Him, then, He will owe them an apology!

An everlasting unchanging God has an everlasting unchanging standard of righteousness. If obedience to the Law was righteousness for Yeshua, then it is righteousness for me to do the same. (I am not saved by the Torah, I am saved to do the Torah.)

Every single time God judges His people, it is for breaking the Torah. Never, ever, not one single time does He ever reward or bless people for disobedience to the ancient paths. Sin is, by definition, breaking Torah. I love you brother, you cannot claim ignorance or excuse. You do not have time to play this game.

Messiah saved us from the CURSE of the Law. Breaking the Law incurs a curse. He did not die to save us from the Law itself, otherwise you are saying that God brought Israel out of bondage in Egypt to saddle them with a curse at Sinai.

Shalom!
 
Do you deem that to be the same law that was given at Sinai? If so, when was it given to Abraham?
I believe it was the same law that was given at Sinai. I firmly believe that Torah was given at the foundations of the world. If not, how did Abel know how to give the firstlings of his flock and fat portions (which is explicitly spelled out in Leviticus)? How was YHVH able to judge the earth during Noah's time if they didn't have a set standard to meet? How was Noah considered righteous, if there was no law for him to live by? How was Abraham considered righteous, except that he know the Torah. Now when was it given? Scripture doesn't say... However, what matters most is that he kept the Torah.
 
Abraham heard if from his fathers. His life overlapped Noah by 50 years and he died before Shem did...

Riddle me this: How did Abel know to 'bring of the firstlings of his flock and their fat portions?' Gen 4:4? Why did God have regard for Abel's offering and not Cain? Were they supposed to magically figure it out as they went? If so, is God a just God by judging Abel righteous and not judging Cain? Or, when God said 'sin was crouching at the door' how did Cain even know what sin was, or what God was talking about? How was God just in judging Cain without having instructed him that killing was wrong? How did Cain know that vengeance could be taken on him? (v 14)

More examples: How could Noah curse Ham? How did the Shem and Japheth know that (whatever happened) was wrong? How could God judge them on that? By what authority did Noah curse? How about Abraham bringing a tenth? Lucky guess on that number? What was the basis for God's judgment of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboim? How could He hold them accountable if He never gave them the proper standard for caring for widows and orphans? Or, Lot, why did he feed the angels matzah (unleavened bread)? Why was he observing Passover? And, Moses is the first to use the term Shabbat in Exodus 16. Magic? Or, does 'Remember the Sabbath' mean 'REMEMBER (what you already know to be doing by have ceased to do in Egypt... not unlike the Church now scattered in Egypt) the Sabbath!

And, there are a number of other examples throughout Genesis that they had a huge part of if not all of the Torah, whether verbal or even in written form. (Allegedly, there is a Book of Enoch... if that was written, why not other important things, like... God's instructions?)

Jeremiah 6:16-19 is apropos:

16 Thus says the Lord,
Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths,
Where the good way is, and walk in it
;
And you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’
17 “And I set watchmen over you, saying,
‘Listen to the sound of the trumpet!’
But they said, ‘We will not listen.’
18 “Therefore hear, O nations,
And know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 “Hear, O earth: behold, I am bringing disaster on this people,
The fruit of their plans,
Because they have not listened to My words,
And as for My law (Torah), they have rejected it also.

Brother, if God judged them for rejecting His ways, His Torah, but then allows this generation to thumb their noses at Him, then, He will owe them an apology!

An everlasting unchanging God has an everlasting unchanging standard of righteousness. If obedience to the Law was righteousness for Yeshua, then it is righteousness for me to do the same. (I am not saved by the Torah, I am saved to do the Torah.)

Every single time God judges His people, it is for breaking the Torah. Never, ever, not one single time does He ever reward or bless people for disobedience to the ancient paths. Sin is, by definition, breaking Torah. I love you brother, you cannot claim ignorance or excuse. You do not have time to play this game.

Messiah saved us from the CURSE of the Law. Breaking the Law incurs a curse. He did not die to save us from the Law itself, otherwise you are saying that God brought Israel out of bondage in Egypt to saddle them with a curse at Sinai.

Shalom!

Is there an echo echo echo echo?
I didn't even read your post when I posted mine... Great minds think alike. :D
 
But let’s get more accurate, you’re saying that there is more information in scripture about the Melchizadek priesthood than there is about the Holy Spirit being a distinct individual in the God-head. That’s moving the goal posts pretty far but even so, you still have to make some nebulous statements like “Melchizadek’s name is mentioned nine times” as if that means anything at all. How many times is the Holy Spirit mentioned? I am sure it is more than nine times. The point is not that there isn’t a Melchizadek priesthood. It’s that it isn’t more prevelant than the “Trinity”.
That is not what I’ve said at all. I’d challenge you to show me where I said that.

You are conflating the Trinity with the Godhead. They are two separate theological ideas that are closely entertwined, but distinct.

Obviously the Holy Spirit is a distinct individual in the God-head. Obviously the Holy Spirit is mentioned multiple times in Scripture. But where does it say that the Holy Spirit is One with the Father or the Son?

The Trinity Doctrine is defined by Merriam Webster as
Definition of Trinity
(Entry 1 of 2)

1: the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma

From Dictionary.com
Also called Blessed Trinity, Holy Trinity. the union of three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, or the threefold personality of the one Divine Being.

Obviously, all three are “God”, but are all three the same entity presented with different “personalities”? Or are there three entities, who are jointly and equally, collectively referred to as God?

There is a difference. Christian doctrine (dogma) today says that the Godhead is a tri-une (trinity) structure. That all three are the same entity. With little to no explicit support that says that all three are one. Quite unlike the perspective that says that the Father and Son is one, which has quite a bit of scriptural support.

Thus, the “Oneness” of the three has surprisingly little to no support (unlike the “Oneness” of the two), making the Trinity “Doctrine” with far less scriptural backing than the topic of the Melchizedek. Your assertion that there’s not enough scriptural support to create a Melchizedek “doctrine” is proven false by the example of the Trinity “Doctrine” which has less Scriptural support and yet is widely touted by most Christian denominations.




 
I believe it was the same law that was given at Sinai. I firmly believe that Torah was given at the foundations of the world. If not, how did Abel know how to give the firstlings of his flock and fat portions (which is explicitly spelled out in Leviticus)? How was YHVH able to judge the earth during Noah's time if they didn't have a set standard to meet? How was Noah considered righteous, if there was no law for him to live by? How was Abraham considered righteous, except that he know the Torah. Now when was it given? Scripture doesn't say... However, what matters most is that he kept the Torah.
Thats interesting that you believe it, but how do you prove it? The existence of similarities does not prove the pre-existence of the Sinai Torah, especially once you try to explain the obvious exclusions and exceptions and non conformance of earlier eras.

Abel gave firstfruits, which is exclusively a Melchizedek offering. The Levites were only eligible for the firstfruits offerings after they were substituted for the Firstborn. Also Cain is noted as having his firstfruits of the ground rejected which were commanded in Leviticus.

No doubt, Adam and Abel and Noah and Enoch and Abraham were given torah. No doubt, Moses was given Torah. Believing that they were the same is of course your prerogative. IF you can explain the anomalies, you’ll be doing better than anyone else I’ve ever met or heard.

Specifically, marriage laws, dietary laws, priesthood changes, sacrifice anomalies, inheritance anomalies, etc.
 
@rockfox

Let me alter the question a bit: If Yeshua/Jesus had skipped a Passover, would He still have been the perfect sinless Lamb of God? Yes or No?

Absolutely, yes.
How about if he skipped Pentecosts? How about Fall Feasts?
Still yes!
Did he observe feasts? Yes. Did he observe all of them? Prove it!
Did he skip feasts? Obviously

I find it incredibly amusing to watch the scriptural gymnastics with this particular topic. Circular reasoning at its worst.
 
@GunnarR and @PeteR

You cannot assume that the Law delivered at Sinai was there all along. The fact that there are cases of people doing things similar to or the same as parts of Torah is not proof that Torah delivered at Sinai was known before Sinai. You’re reading that into the text.
If Abraham was taught the same Torah that was delivered at Mount Sinai to Moses, then you cannot say that Abraham kept the Torah nor did his fathers. Abraham was not circumcised on the eighth day, he was 99 years old when he circumcised himself. In fact how would circumcision be a sign between God and Abraham and Abraham’s seed if it was standard issue for followers of God before that? Abraham married the daughter of his father. You can’t say Abraham followed the same Torah from Mount Sinai, because he simply didn’t.
 
Absolutely, yes.
How about if he skipped Pentecosts? How about Fall Feasts?
Still yes!
Did he observe feasts? Yes. Did he observe all of them? Prove it!
Did he skip feasts? Obviously

I find it incredibly amusing to watch the scriptural gymnastics with this particular topic. Circular reasoning at its worst.
If Yeshua didn't keep Passover, or any of the other feasts, that would disqualify Him.
But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and yet neglects to observe the Passover, that person shall then be cut off from his people, for he did not present the offering of the Lord at its appointed time. That man will bear his sin.
Numbers 9:13 NASB

‘These are the appointed times of the Lord , holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. Until this same day, until you have brought in the offering of your God, you shall eat neither bread nor roasted grain nor new growth. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places. On this same day you shall make a proclamation as well; you are to have a holy convocation. You shall do no laborious work. It is to be a perpetual statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations. You shall do no work at all. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Leviticus 23:4‭, ‬14‭, ‬21‭, ‬‬31‭

Numerous times in Leviticus 23, which is the statues regarding the Feasts, it talks about keeping it forever in all your dwelling places.

You shall not do any work on this same day, for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the Lord your God. If there is any person who will not humble himself on this same day, he shall be cut off from his people. As for any person who does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Leviticus 23:28‭-‬30 NASB

Again, for the Feasts of Atonement, which is the holiest day of the year, states that those who don't follow this command are cut off.

In essence, Yeshua (Jesus) HAD to keep the feasts. If He didn't, He would be disobeying the command and sinning, which would disqualify Him as Messiah.
 
Specifically, marriage laws, dietary laws, priesthood changes, sacrifice anomalies, inheritance anomalies, etc.
@Verifyveritas76 when you were one year old, were there things your parents told you not to do? Do you remember? How about when you were two, or four. Did they give you instructions? Do you recall those instructions? (I.e., don't stick that fork in the wall socket. It's not good for you.) Heck, even at 15, I bet you were given life instructions that didn't 'stick' until you were 25.

The point, what your parents taught you at one, that was far above your understanding or ability to carry out was still true at 25 when you could not only understand but also apply some principles and rules. Are the rules any more valid at 25 than at 0ne? Of course not. You just remember them and know how to apply them.

Same with God's Instructions. Just because the Patriarchs were not perfect, or didn't walk in them or understand them, or record them, does not in any way make them non-existent. The fact is, His Torah is a reflection of His everlasting and unchanging character, therefore, the rules had to exist before Creation and will continue to exist after the Millennial reign.

See, what you, @Asforme&myhouse , @rockfox and the Church in general portray is a schizophrenic God who can't make up His mind. He's as capricious as the Greek gods the Church models Him after. To wit: The Feast of Tabernacles is commanded in Leviticus 23 as well as other places. You assume it was only done by Israel between Sinai and the Cross. You assume you don't need to do it today. You know Scripture clearly says it will be celebrated by the world, under penalty of drought, in the Millennial Kingdom. (Zechariah 14:16-19) Apparently, to hear this recounting, God can't make up His mind. You appear to claim the God who says, 'I the Lord do not change...' and 'A false balance is an abomination to the Lord, but a just weight is His delight...' happens to use unequal weights and balances and changes with frequency. (Christianity just covers up this glaring error with a theological term: Dispensationalism.)

At the Judgment seat, God won't have one law book for Abraham, a different one for Moses, still another for Ezra, yet another for John the Baptist, still another for Paul, something different for the Church and a set of rules for the Millennial dwellers. Sorry. Ain't happening. He is consistent and has exactly one standard of righteousness for every human that has ever or will ever walk the face of the planet. The standard of righteousness is unchanging and is most clearly spelled out in the five books of Moses. That is the standard Yeshua/Jesus had to adhere to, and it is the standard we are called to. Violating it brings curses. Obeying it brings blessings. Choose you this day... as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. (Yes, he who said that kept the Torah.)

Shalom!
 
If Yeshua didn't keep Passover, or any of the other feasts, that would disqualify Him.
But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and yet neglects to observe the Passover, that person shall then be cut off from his people, for he did not present the offering of the Lord at its appointed time. That man will bear his sin.
Numbers 9:13 NASB

‘These are the appointed times of the Lord , holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. Until this same day, until you have brought in the offering of your God, you shall eat neither bread nor roasted grain nor new growth. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places. On this same day you shall make a proclamation as well; you are to have a holy convocation. You shall do no laborious work. It is to be a perpetual statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations. You shall do no work at all. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Leviticus 23:4‭, ‬14‭, ‬21‭, ‬‬31‭

Numerous times in Leviticus 23, which is the statues regarding the Feasts, it talks about keeping it forever in all your dwelling places.

You shall not do any work on this same day, for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the Lord your God. If there is any person who will not humble himself on this same day, he shall be cut off from his people. As for any person who does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Leviticus 23:28‭-‬30 NASB

Again, for the Feasts of Atonement, which is the holiest day of the year, states that those who don't follow this command are cut off.

In essence, Yeshua (Jesus) HAD to keep the feasts. If He didn't, He would be disobeying the command and sinning, which would disqualify Him as Messiah.
Excellent answer, @GunnarR. And, helps us answer the question, WWJD? (What would Jesus do?) No brainer, what did He do? He kept the Torah and if we are to walk as He Himself walked (1 Jn 2:6; 1 Cor. 11:1), then we will do the same without the traditions of men, be they Christian or Jew, intertwined.
 
Galatians 3:1-29 KJV
[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? [2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? [4] Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. [5] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. [7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. [8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying , In thee shall all nations be blessed. [9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. [10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. [12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. [13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: [14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. [15] Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. [16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [17] And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. [18] For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. [19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. [20] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. [21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Galatians 2:11-21 KJV
[11] But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. [12] For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. [13] And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. [14] But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? [15] We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, [16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. [17] But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. [18] For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. [19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. [20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Romans 7:1-4 KJV
[1] Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? [2] For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. [3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.



@PeteR Christ lived Torah perfectly, in fact, He fulfilled it to the letter. Then our Messiah was crucified for our transgression of the Law. We who have believed have been buried with Him in baptism and we are no longer under, not only the curse of the law, but the law itself.

Why would Paul call out Peter for being hypocritical for pretending to live like a Jew when the Jews were around? Why didn’t Paul, if he taught that we must adhere to the ceremonial aspects of the law, call out Peter for living “like a gentile” before the jews ever showed up?

Those who say that christians must keep Torah say that they do not believe we are saved by works, but when you hammer on this subject long enough it always comes out that they believe that if you don’t keep it, you’re going to hell because you are a “lawless one”.

With all do respect, how anyone can read Paul’s writings and claim that the ceremonial aspects of the law are required of christians is beyond me. The Apostles in Jerusalem were asked the question of whether or not gentiles were required to follow the law. Their answer was that we gentiles didn’t even have to be circumcised.
 
@Asforme&myhouse Love ya, bro, but those passages don't say what you want them to say. Otherwise, Paul would not have said, 'I am a Pharisee' nor would he have said on multiple occasions, 'I believe everything in accordance with the Torah' and 'I have committed no offense against the Torah or the Temple or Caesar.' Unless of course, he's schizophrenic, too...

You continue to confuse 'tradition' with 'Torah.' The Law stands. Every jot and tittle. Paul upheld the Torah at every turn while blasting the tradition that masqueraded as truth.

Shalom!
 
@Asforme&myhouse Love ya, bro, but those passages don't say what you want them to say. Otherwise, Paul would not have said, 'I am a Pharisee' nor would he have said on multiple occasions, 'I believe everything in accordance with the Torah' and 'I have committed no offense against the Torah or the Temple or Caesar.' Unless of course, he's schizophrenic, too...

You continue to confuse 'tradition' with 'Torah.' The Law stands. Every jot and tittle. Paul upheld the Torah at every turn while blasting the tradition that masqueraded as truth.

Shalom!

When Paul said he was a pharisee and the son of a pharisee, he was making a point to pharisees. That doesn’t mean he is living as a pharisee. If I was having a debate with someone from Alaska that had to do with stuff about Alaska, I could say, honestly, that I am an Alaskan and the son of an Alaskan. It doesn’t mean I currently reside in Alaska or that I’m currently doing Alaskan things like chewing on a piece of smoked salmon or hunting a kodiak brown bear. He is connecting with his audience and he is not being dishonest in what he said.

As far as confusing tradition with Torah, that is something that, respectfully, you are reading into the text. I have heard this argument from several people, that when it says “the circumcision”, it is referring to a specific sect as apposed to those who follow Torah. But how can that be used as a contrast? If both “the circumcision” and those who follow Torah are circumcised? The contrast is between circumcision and uncircumcision, as in Jew and gentile, not Jew and other Jew. When Paul rebuked Peter for his hypocrisy, he said that Peter had been living as a gentile. He wasn’t living as a Jew following the dietary laws of the Torah and then trying to pretend to be a member of ”the circumcision party” when they showed up. He was living like a gentile... for which Paul didn’t rebuke him. Jesus gave zero ground to false traditions of the pharisees during His earthly ministry, so to say there was a group that held to the “tradition of the elders” that was excepted in the church by the Apostles is a rather absurd claim.
 
That is not what I’ve said at all. I’d challenge you to show me where I said that.

You are conflating the Trinity with the Godhead. They are two separate theological ideas that are closely entertwined, but distinct.

Obviously the Holy Spirit is a distinct individual in the God-head. Obviously the Holy Spirit is mentioned multiple times in Scripture. But where does it say that the Holy Spirit is One with the Father or the Son?

The Trinity Doctrine is defined by Merriam Webster as
Definition of Trinity
(Entry 1 of 2)

1: the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma

From Dictionary.com
Also called Blessed Trinity, Holy Trinity. the union of three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, or the threefold personality of the one Divine Being.

Obviously, all three are “God”, but are all three the same entity presented with different “personalities”? Or are there three entities, who are jointly and equally, collectively referred to as God?

There is a difference. Christian doctrine (dogma) today says that the Godhead is a tri-une (trinity) structure. That all three are the same entity. With little to no explicit support that says that all three are one. Quite unlike the perspective that says that the Father and Son is one, which has quite a bit of scriptural support.

Thus, the “Oneness” of the three has surprisingly little to no support (unlike the “Oneness” of the two), making the Trinity “Doctrine” with far less scriptural backing than the topic of the Melchizedek. Your assertion that there’s not enough scriptural support to create a Melchizedek “doctrine” is proven false by the example of the Trinity “Doctrine” which has less Scriptural support and yet is widely touted by most Christian denominations.



Okay now there may be more information on Melchizedek than whatever the hell you’re talking about . Let me see if I understand this, if anyone can. You’re asserting that the Holy Spirit exists as a distinct entity outside of the Godhead? He is an individual but He is not some how one with the Father and Son? He’s something completely different?

You constantly amaze me.

Now correct me if I’m wrong here but I thought binitarians believe that the Holy Spirit isn’t a distinct entity but simply the power or presence of the Father or Son. Binitarians still associate the Holy Spirit entirely with the Godhead. You’re saying that He is a he, a completely separate thing somewhat like a hopped up angel?

You have said somethings in the past I took great umbrage at and I feel like this should be one of them but evidently you and I are just on separate wavelengths. I would suggest that now your mission of correcting the Bible’s errors by filtering it through the Code of Hammurabi and the Babylonian Talmud is complete that MAYBE, just maybe, you check back up on what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit. It shouldn’t take too long. Apparently there’s not that much. I think there may be more than you realize though. He, I’m sorry I mean he, gives such great gifts and facilitates so many miracles and all.
 
I believe it was the same law that was given at Sinai. I firmly believe that Torah was given at the foundations of the world.

Deuteronmy 5
1And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. 2The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Galations 3

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
 
He did come to free us from the CURSE of the Law. The law itself is not a curse, unless you think God brought His people out of Egypt to put them in bondage...

Rather, the curse occurred when we disobeyed the Law... sin is transgression of the Law, 1 Jn 3:2

compare

Messiah saved us from the CURSE of the Law. Breaking the Law incurs a curse. He did not die to save us from the Law

On one hand you say Christ redeems us from the curse of the Law (which is true) But then say that breaking the law brings a curse.

If I am redeemed from the curse how can I be punished for not keeping the law?
 
If I am redeemed from the curse how can I be punished for not keeping the law?
You are redeemed from the curse, not from the law itself.

Example, if the judge forgives you for speeding, that redeems you from the curse, the ticket, against you. It does NOT nullify the law of speeding. you have to walk out of the courtroom as a free man that then obeys the speed limit. Else, the next time you are in front of the judge he will throw the book at you!

Romans 6:1 & 2 'Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?'

Romans 3:31 'Do we then nullify the Law though faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law!'
 
Deuteronmy 5
1And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. 2The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Galations 3

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

To hear you talk, one would think God can't make up His mind and has a changing standard as unstable as the stock market.

From the beginning, the Torah has always been there. Maybe it was only individually applied, but at Sinai, God applies it as the covenant for an entire nation. A ketubah contract, if you will. He wasn't making up new rules at that point. He is unchanging and His righteousness is an everlasting righteousness. The absurdity of a changing law impugns God with His own law... He hates unjust weights and measures.

The message of Scripture is consistent from beginning to end, I can quote hundreds of verses. They all witness against this antinomian generation:

Psalm 1:1-3 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked.... but his delight is in the Torah and on His Torah he meditates day and night...whatever he does, he prospers...

Psalm 19:7-14 The Torah of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul... more desirable than gold...in keeping them is great reward… Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable...

Psalm 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, Your Torah is within my heart. (Hmmm... His will is to do the Torah?!? Say it ain't so!!)

Psalm 119:1 How blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the Torah of God. (To be blameless, walk in the Torah!)

Here's a prayer for you: Psalm 119:29 Remove the false way from me and graciously grant me Your Torah.

Another prayer: Psalm 119:34 Give me understanding that I may observe (do!) Your Torah and keep it with all my heart!

Psalm 119:44-45 So, I will keep Your Torah continually forever and ever, and I will walk at liberty for I seek Your precepts. (Torah =...LIBERTY!)

Psalm 119:51 & 53... The arrogant utterly deride me, yet I do not turn aside from Your Torah....burning indignation has seized me because of the wicked who forsake Your Torah. (Apparently, forsaking Torah = wickedness...)

Skipping many references just in this single chapter... Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your Torah is truth. (Everlasting means to eternity past and future... And, Torah is righteousness... Also, truth is unchanging.)

Psalm 119:165 Those who love Your Torah have great peace and nothing causes them to stumble. (Torah = PEACE)

Psalm 119:174 I long for Your Yeshua, YHVH, and Your Torah is my delight!

I can give 100 more, but those witness against the spirit of antinomianism.

I challenge you to read and deeply consider every use of the word 'Torah' in Scripture. The depth is amazing... Also, find every use of the word 'Yeshua' (usually: salvation) in the 'old' testament. Notice how many times it is directly connected with the Torah...
 
"16So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a [j]festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17which are a shadow of things to come, but the [k]substance is of Christ."

Passover very specifically pointed to Christ; a type or shadow of the real thing (Christ).

‘These are the appointed times of the Lord , holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. Until this same day, until you have brought in the offering of your God, you shall eat neither bread nor roasted grain nor new growth. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places. On this same day you shall make a proclamation as well; you are to have a holy convocation. You shall do no laborious work. It is to be a perpetual statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations. You shall do no work at all. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Leviticus 23:4‭, ‬14‭, ‬21‭, ‬‬31‭

Perpetual so long as the covenant was still in effect. Post the cross is isn't. You're stuck on the shadow.

Galatians 3:1-29 KJV
[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? [2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? [4] Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. [5] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. [7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. [8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying , In thee shall all nations be blessed. [9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. [10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. [12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. [13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: [14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. [15] Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. [16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [17] And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. [18] For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. [19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. [20] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. [21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Which pretty conclusively shoots down the idea that Abraham was a Torah keeper.

With all do respect, how anyone can read Paul’s writings and claim that the ceremonial aspects of the law are required of christians is beyond me. The Apostles in Jerusalem were asked the question of whether or not gentiles were required to follow the law. Their answer was that we gentiles didn’t even have to be circumcised.

Bingo. The letter to the Apostles should finish this question once an for all. "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you" Is the only thing to explain why it hasn't.

To hear you talk, one would think God can't make up His mind and has a changing standard as unstable as the stock market.

See, what you, @Asforme&myhouse , @rockfox and the Church in general portray is a schizophrenic God who can't make up His mind.

This is patently ridiculous. There was ONE change: Old Covenant (which had problems) was replaced with a New (and better) Covenant. If you think that is unstable schizophrenic you don't understand the law nor God.
 
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