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Making Progress on the church acceptance front
- Thread starter Daniel DeLuca
- Start date
Rabbinical leaders felt that 18 was the limit for kings (I don't have the source, but I came across that recently).
That is an excellent series of articles, and the author doesn't exactly state a favorable opinion towards polygamy, but it seems to bleed out in the article you cited.
Cult leaders taking so many of the women was just a symptom of the deeper problems of the cult itself. We don’t have those factors in play.
I don’t think that we need concern ourselves about it.
Back to the main topic of this thread........
Our Bible Study/Grow group/Sunday School class, whatever you want to call it, has decided to host small groups, and the first was held last night. My wife decided that she was too tired to attend, so I went on my own. Since some of the people there were curious and I had not told them specifically why I was kicked out of the orchestra, it gave me ample opportunity to spell it out for them. I was the first to arrive, so I laid out the basics of the pro-polygamy position. The husband had some basic questions, which I explained to him. He then said that he agrees that it isn't wrong Biblically, but brought up the legality matter. I explained the three aspects of legality as I see it, that marriage is not something the government has authority over, that there are unjust, or in this case overreaching laws, and I mentioned the Utah lower court ruling and the fact that it was overturned on account of the fact that the state had no intention of enforcing that law, and I briefly mentioned the possibility of applying for a waiver from that law. He brought up the Sermon on the Mount, and specifically what Jesus had to say about lust, and before I could respond, another couple arrived. I decided it would be prudent to avoid trying to take on four people at once, so I dropped the conversation at that point.
We had a great time! The other couple, well both of them also were at one time in the orchestra, as was the wife of the host, until she had a baby. I had been talking to the host about joining the orchestra, as he can play the cello, and I was the one who recruited his wife, after he told me that she played viola. So here, four out of the five of us had left the orchestra, as the arriving couple, the husband had played trumpet, but quit, mostly because of the fact that he is Lutheran (Missouri Senate) and he does not like anything other than hymns. I asked him if he liked the arrangement of "Come Thou Fount" that the choir and orchestra performed on Sunday, and he said that he did not. It wasn't even jazzed up, but he didn't like it. His wife brought a box of diapers, which I was curious about, because our class had showered that host family months ago, when their baby was born. It turns out she has a former coworker whose wife is about to give birth, and she was working on a diaper cake with that. The host had never heard of such a thing, and thought it was a cake with white and brown icing. I told them that I had brought some chili to work in a container, and told someone that I was eating, well, you know...crap. We had fun helping her put that cake together while we talked.
We talked about Halloween, and I pulled out my usual "Halle what? Halle who?" Then, since he is Lutheran, I felt it would lead to a good discussion of "Hallowed evening" and told them how many strange looks I get when I ask people if they had ever heard of the Diet of Wurms. He had to explain that one to his wife. I interspersed a few comments about why I had gotten removed, without being too specific, and told them that I had spoken with Dr. William Luck, and mentioned to him that my worship leader disagreed with me on whether Martin Luther held that view, and I told them that Dr Luck stated emphatically that indeed Luther did in fact hold that controversial view. I also told them about Pastor Joe from Blessed Hope Chapel, and his video "They sold their souls for Rock & Roll", which you can find a link to in one of the threads here. I mentioned Katy Perry, Beyonce, Kesha, and the fact that if you play the song "Hotel California" backwards, you will hear the words, "Satan, he organized his own religion".
In the conversation, I mentioned we had discovered a church nearby, which held AWANAs on Sunday nights, and that I had been taking my little boy there, which led to questions about why our church had stopped that program, and the fact that many people were unhappy about it. They seemed to be unhappy to hear that. That opened the door to discussion about controversy within the church, and about church authority. I pointed out the Scripture that says that the man is the head of the woman, and that the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God, and I said that somehow, the church has inserted itself into the authority structure. I said that the purpose of the church is not to act as an authority over us, but rather the build up and equip the saints. They all nodded in agreement! I said that I stayed home from church a couple of weeks ago and watched online, because our car battery went out. I said that the pastor prayed at the beginning of the message that God would hide him behind the cross. I said that that is a great prayer to pray, but then during the sermon, he proceeded to talk about how he had read a passage hundreds of times, and then said that he had read it thousands of times. I told them I had lost count of how many times the pastor had spoken about how much he fasts or prays or shares the gospel. I told them how I had commented to my son, at the start of the service, that in the six years we have been going there, the church growth has stagnated, and my son had responded that it actually has shrunk. They all agreed that in fact it had shrunk. I said that at my former church, the pastor consistently praised the people; that it was the people of that church, that made it such a great church; people who cared enough for their friends, neighbors, coworkers, to invite them to church, and to share the gospel with them. I told them how that church was such a growing and dynamic church.
Our Lutheran friend explained that he really wanted to be an elder in our church, but when he read the requirements, he felt he could not do it. One of his points of disagreement has to do with the sinner's prayer. He had been confirmed in the Lutheran faith, and he felt that this prayer was an act on the part of the sinner, to earn his righteousness. I agreed with him that the sinner's prayer is not a requirement of salvation, but we didn't get into any debate on why that would be considered a "good work". What I did point out, was the fact that we in the Baptist church, disagree on numerous things, but we still fellowship with one another. Our pastor actually brought that out in his sermon on Sunday, which was kind of cool.
We talked about how I met my wife, and I told them about the mission trips I had been on, and how we shared the gospel message with people, and how I had seen God work on one of those trips, and methods of sharing the gospel. The funny thing is, the host had a 2X2 rubik's cube, which is interesting to say the least. I proceeded to do a name drop, telling him that I personally knew Nathan Sheets, the inventor of the Evangecube, (who interestingly enough, we discovered recently, has a line of honey sold at HEB) and that he had invited me to his wedding, and I caught the garter, FWIW. Nathan knows me personally, and every time I encountered him at my former church, we always exchanged pleasantries. I explained what the Evangecube was, and how I had used it on mission trips. That gave me the opportunity to explain how I had gotten involved with E3 Partners (at the time, it was called Global Missions Fellowship), which I recommended to them, and of course how I met my wife on one of those trips.
As the evening wound down, I felt it wise to go ahead and let the other guests know, as it was just the five of us what it was that had gotten me kicked out of the orchestra. They were very cool with it. My Lutheran friend nodded and said, "to each his own." I responded saying that there are Biblical parameters, such as the fact that it is adultery to take another man's wife. I said, "you may remember when we had this discussion in class", and sure enough, they did. This is something I could have never done, on church property, without going back on my word to not defend polygamy while there, but God just threw this opportunity right in my lap. I told them how the truth about polygamy, is like a leak in the dam that is about to burst, and that I would rather be in the forefront of this, than to be going along for the ride.
My wife is still unhappy about all this, and has decided to meet with a professional lobbyist who happens to be on the church staff. I have spoken to him in the past, telling him to let his daughter know that Polygamy is Biblical; I mentioned that occurrence here in this thread. At first, I did not want to meet with him, but when she told me that he wants to meet with her at a Starbucks, I said that I have no problem doing so, because it is not on church property. We will meet on Saturday afternoon at a local Starbucks near the mall. I went to his daughter's Facebook page, and she seems to advocate for LGBTQJKLMNOP, so I will be sure to mention that I get the impression that she has a boyfriend who appears to not be as godly as the men here at BF or even the ones who go to church regularly. God has been giving me words to say, that I can share with this minister. He is very friendly, and has taught our Grow Group (cringe...what growth?) numerous times. He knows how knowledgeable I am with regard to Scriptures, so I don't anticipate the dismissal from him that I received from the worship pastor. I don't intend to try to win over the people in the orchestra who have responded to me, unless they wish to press this issue, but I won't be on the defensive when discussing this, with this particular staff member.
Our Bible Study/Grow group/Sunday School class, whatever you want to call it, has decided to host small groups, and the first was held last night. My wife decided that she was too tired to attend, so I went on my own. Since some of the people there were curious and I had not told them specifically why I was kicked out of the orchestra, it gave me ample opportunity to spell it out for them. I was the first to arrive, so I laid out the basics of the pro-polygamy position. The husband had some basic questions, which I explained to him. He then said that he agrees that it isn't wrong Biblically, but brought up the legality matter. I explained the three aspects of legality as I see it, that marriage is not something the government has authority over, that there are unjust, or in this case overreaching laws, and I mentioned the Utah lower court ruling and the fact that it was overturned on account of the fact that the state had no intention of enforcing that law, and I briefly mentioned the possibility of applying for a waiver from that law. He brought up the Sermon on the Mount, and specifically what Jesus had to say about lust, and before I could respond, another couple arrived. I decided it would be prudent to avoid trying to take on four people at once, so I dropped the conversation at that point.
We had a great time! The other couple, well both of them also were at one time in the orchestra, as was the wife of the host, until she had a baby. I had been talking to the host about joining the orchestra, as he can play the cello, and I was the one who recruited his wife, after he told me that she played viola. So here, four out of the five of us had left the orchestra, as the arriving couple, the husband had played trumpet, but quit, mostly because of the fact that he is Lutheran (Missouri Senate) and he does not like anything other than hymns. I asked him if he liked the arrangement of "Come Thou Fount" that the choir and orchestra performed on Sunday, and he said that he did not. It wasn't even jazzed up, but he didn't like it. His wife brought a box of diapers, which I was curious about, because our class had showered that host family months ago, when their baby was born. It turns out she has a former coworker whose wife is about to give birth, and she was working on a diaper cake with that. The host had never heard of such a thing, and thought it was a cake with white and brown icing. I told them that I had brought some chili to work in a container, and told someone that I was eating, well, you know...crap. We had fun helping her put that cake together while we talked.
We talked about Halloween, and I pulled out my usual "Halle what? Halle who?" Then, since he is Lutheran, I felt it would lead to a good discussion of "Hallowed evening" and told them how many strange looks I get when I ask people if they had ever heard of the Diet of Wurms. He had to explain that one to his wife. I interspersed a few comments about why I had gotten removed, without being too specific, and told them that I had spoken with Dr. William Luck, and mentioned to him that my worship leader disagreed with me on whether Martin Luther held that view, and I told them that Dr Luck stated emphatically that indeed Luther did in fact hold that controversial view. I also told them about Pastor Joe from Blessed Hope Chapel, and his video "They sold their souls for Rock & Roll", which you can find a link to in one of the threads here. I mentioned Katy Perry, Beyonce, Kesha, and the fact that if you play the song "Hotel California" backwards, you will hear the words, "Satan, he organized his own religion".
In the conversation, I mentioned we had discovered a church nearby, which held AWANAs on Sunday nights, and that I had been taking my little boy there, which led to questions about why our church had stopped that program, and the fact that many people were unhappy about it. They seemed to be unhappy to hear that. That opened the door to discussion about controversy within the church, and about church authority. I pointed out the Scripture that says that the man is the head of the woman, and that the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God, and I said that somehow, the church has inserted itself into the authority structure. I said that the purpose of the church is not to act as an authority over us, but rather the build up and equip the saints. They all nodded in agreement! I said that I stayed home from church a couple of weeks ago and watched online, because our car battery went out. I said that the pastor prayed at the beginning of the message that God would hide him behind the cross. I said that that is a great prayer to pray, but then during the sermon, he proceeded to talk about how he had read a passage hundreds of times, and then said that he had read it thousands of times. I told them I had lost count of how many times the pastor had spoken about how much he fasts or prays or shares the gospel. I told them how I had commented to my son, at the start of the service, that in the six years we have been going there, the church growth has stagnated, and my son had responded that it actually has shrunk. They all agreed that in fact it had shrunk. I said that at my former church, the pastor consistently praised the people; that it was the people of that church, that made it such a great church; people who cared enough for their friends, neighbors, coworkers, to invite them to church, and to share the gospel with them. I told them how that church was such a growing and dynamic church.
Our Lutheran friend explained that he really wanted to be an elder in our church, but when he read the requirements, he felt he could not do it. One of his points of disagreement has to do with the sinner's prayer. He had been confirmed in the Lutheran faith, and he felt that this prayer was an act on the part of the sinner, to earn his righteousness. I agreed with him that the sinner's prayer is not a requirement of salvation, but we didn't get into any debate on why that would be considered a "good work". What I did point out, was the fact that we in the Baptist church, disagree on numerous things, but we still fellowship with one another. Our pastor actually brought that out in his sermon on Sunday, which was kind of cool.
We talked about how I met my wife, and I told them about the mission trips I had been on, and how we shared the gospel message with people, and how I had seen God work on one of those trips, and methods of sharing the gospel. The funny thing is, the host had a 2X2 rubik's cube, which is interesting to say the least. I proceeded to do a name drop, telling him that I personally knew Nathan Sheets, the inventor of the Evangecube, (who interestingly enough, we discovered recently, has a line of honey sold at HEB) and that he had invited me to his wedding, and I caught the garter, FWIW. Nathan knows me personally, and every time I encountered him at my former church, we always exchanged pleasantries. I explained what the Evangecube was, and how I had used it on mission trips. That gave me the opportunity to explain how I had gotten involved with E3 Partners (at the time, it was called Global Missions Fellowship), which I recommended to them, and of course how I met my wife on one of those trips.
As the evening wound down, I felt it wise to go ahead and let the other guests know, as it was just the five of us what it was that had gotten me kicked out of the orchestra. They were very cool with it. My Lutheran friend nodded and said, "to each his own." I responded saying that there are Biblical parameters, such as the fact that it is adultery to take another man's wife. I said, "you may remember when we had this discussion in class", and sure enough, they did. This is something I could have never done, on church property, without going back on my word to not defend polygamy while there, but God just threw this opportunity right in my lap. I told them how the truth about polygamy, is like a leak in the dam that is about to burst, and that I would rather be in the forefront of this, than to be going along for the ride.
My wife is still unhappy about all this, and has decided to meet with a professional lobbyist who happens to be on the church staff. I have spoken to him in the past, telling him to let his daughter know that Polygamy is Biblical; I mentioned that occurrence here in this thread. At first, I did not want to meet with him, but when she told me that he wants to meet with her at a Starbucks, I said that I have no problem doing so, because it is not on church property. We will meet on Saturday afternoon at a local Starbucks near the mall. I went to his daughter's Facebook page, and she seems to advocate for LGBTQJKLMNOP, so I will be sure to mention that I get the impression that she has a boyfriend who appears to not be as godly as the men here at BF or even the ones who go to church regularly. God has been giving me words to say, that I can share with this minister. He is very friendly, and has taught our Grow Group (cringe...what growth?) numerous times. He knows how knowledgeable I am with regard to Scriptures, so I don't anticipate the dismissal from him that I received from the worship pastor. I don't intend to try to win over the people in the orchestra who have responded to me, unless they wish to press this issue, but I won't be on the defensive when discussing this, with this particular staff member.
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Yeah, I probably worded that last sentence wrong. With the top-down structure in my own church, it resembles a cult more than we do here. I should have said that anywhere there is an organization, where the pastor is practically worshiped, the leader ought to restrict himself to few wives. I was a member of Miller Road Baptist back when Dave Hyles was sleeping with 19 of the women in the church, but at the time, I was too young to recognize the charismatic nature of Dave Hyles, and I was clueless how his father ran FBC Hammond.
WOW!
That’s incredible, I had no idea.
But you are proving the bankruptcy of that type of system and why it should be avoided rather than regulated.
I can't help but wonder, if he had known the truth about Biblical marriage, if he might have satisfied his desire for more than just his wife, in a more Biblical manner. This is a small sample of what CAN happen in a church, and there are many good churches where that is unheard of, but it is something we Baptists need to not turn a blind eye to.
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I’m sorry, but no amount of tweaking will turn a pastor-based corporation into the organic, empowering, fellowship that Yah is looking for.
I attended a large Southern Baptist church for 18 years, and saw God do mighty and powerful things through that church. A perfect church would be great to have. There were characteristics I saw in that church, that I would like transplanted to the church I attend now, and if I am unable to continue to worship there, I will with God's help, and the help of anyone that I can recruit, start a new congregation, and employ those characteristics there. At my former church, the people all loved and revered the pastor, but he is very humble. He constantly praises the people of that church and downplays the praises heaped on him. That was one of the points that I was able to get across to my colleagues the other night.
Miller Road was a church that had a strong emphasis on "Soul Winning". We did see many people pray a "sinner's prayer" and get baptized, but they were not really big on "Lordship", as they felt that was more of a works based concept, which is true, but then again Eph 2:10 does point out that while we are saved by grace through faith, we are saved to do good works which he has predestined us to do. It is human nature to engage in hero worship, and that was true when David was king and it was true when Moses brought them to the Promised Land, albeit, he had a bit more opposition than most heroes. Even the church at Corinth had an issue with idolizing church leaders! I find it hard though to argue that we shouldn't have a fellowship with believers who are actively engaged in fulfilling the Great Commission.
OK, I think we have reached a point where this needs a thread of its own. I will continue to post updates on this thread, as long as I am a part of this church.
The Solomon topic was moved here https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/the-solomon-discussion.15138/
Hopefully I got all the pertinent posts.
Hopefully I got all the pertinent posts.
It looks like you did.
@Daniel DeLuca, I think I should point out that, although it was interesting, you just shared an enormous level of detail of your private discussions with other families, on a wide range of issues. For instance, you've mentioned one person's private aspirations to be an elder, and the full name of another person you were discussing. If someone else shared this level of detail of your personal discussions in a public forum, would you be comfortable with that? Well, maybe you would be, but not everybody would be! Just bear this in mind before committing everything to writing. You might wish to take this level of notes yourself for your own memory, but it's probably best to then give us just the summary points.
Just FYI. Most polygamists would not consider a woman married without a state license a "side chick" and the term might be offensive to any wives who did not hold such a license.
Since they do not place any value in a state marriage license, they would not place any wife without one as a lessor wife in any sense.
Not accusing you of meaning that, just wanted to be clear.
Actually in Texas it is a felony to even "purport" to be married to more than one person. The marriage license has nothing to do with that. It is kind of mind blowing that if you call her your lady then you are fine, but if you call her your wife then you just committed a felony, but there it is. Not that they enforce it here.
As far as the question of Christians breaking the law, I always ask that if they passed a law saying that you can not marry at all would you follow it or would you ignore it? I think it is clear that state law is not an absolute authority. I think Paul is teaching that in general we should follow the law, but he is not teaching to follow it in an absolute sense.
One other illustration I use is the legend of Saint Valentine. He is a saint because he married Christians when the Roman government forbid Christians to marry as part of a plan of eradication. Clearly limited government is part of the Christian tradition.
Or any...
That is true. But it's still not illegal to have her as a wife but call her something else. It's offensive and demeaning, but it still leaves polygamy legal fundamentally.
The verses are kind of ambiguous on their own as to their meaning and can have a t least 4 different meanings, but I am attracted to your definition, as it seems to best fit the general idea of the passages that he be good at managing the family that he already has.
Just like God!
Duet 17:17
BTW: This is a pro-polygyny verse as it would be stupid to say not to over do it if the rule was one and only one.
Right. I see a lot on polygamy forum that Utah is the only state that has a cohabitation rule and that every other state you are safe as long as you do not get more than one marriage license. It is just not true. And then of course there is that ancient law in Michigan where it is a felony to even advocate for polygamy.
I do not care at all about legalizing it, but we really do need to de-criminalize it and remove these idiotic laws from our books.